LOL at the Fast Food Strike

[sturg33]

Link: Less than 0.1% of Fast Food workers participated (http://reason.com/reasontv/2013/12/06/what-we-saw-at-new-yorks-fast-food-strik)


In interviews, several striking workers described how it had been relatively easy for them to get a job in fast-food service. Shenita Simon, who works as a shift supervisor at KFC, told us that she doesn’t know where else she would have been able to find a position, because fast food is the only industry that "will allow you to have minimum education.” Isaac Wallace, a Burger King employee, described how he was able to get his job immediately after moving to New York from Jamaica by simply walking into a Burger King in Brooklyn and approaching the manager.

[goldfly]

yeah

hilarious

people wanting a livable wage possibly that still hasn't kept up with inflation


let's laugh at poor people

[goldfly]

your stance on this is more absurd in my eyes than any of your other stances


if the business would pay people a better wage, the gov't wouldn't have to step in to help people survive

[sturg33]

Why do they deserve a better wage? They have no skills or education

[goldfly]

Why do they deserve a better wage? They have no skills or education

i was guessing this would be your reply

or "if they don't like it, they can quit"


guessing you think wages shouldn't have kept up with inflation

[sturg33]

Well I think inflation wouldn't be an issue if we had a currency that was backed by actual value… But I'm crazy…

But I think the minimum wage should be $0.00/hour for the record.

[sturg33]

Oh and, per usual… You didn't answer the question. I'll ask again:

Why do they deserve a better wage? They have no skills or education

Lastly, they can quit… But they'd be foolish to do so, because most of them probably really need the money and won't be able to find a job elsewhere.

[zitothebrave]

I'm gonna side with sturg here. If the had a skill worth paying for they would.

[acesfull86]

yeah

hilarious

people wanting a livable wage possibly that still hasn't kept up with inflation


let's laugh at poor people


your stance on this is more absurd in my eyes than any of your other stances


if the business would pay people a better wage, the gov't wouldn't have to step in to help people survive

So basically there is no room for the belief that a rise (not even a rise...a doubling) of the minimum wage would have a net negative impact on low skilled, low wage workers? Because that is what I believe would be the most likely outcome, so my opposition to this policy is because I DO care about these people.

BTW, I won't speak for Sturg, but I think a large part of the "LOL" was in reaction to the small participation rate for the strike (less than 1/10th of 1% of the city's fast food workers).

[sturg33]

So basically there is no room for the belief that a rise (not even a rise...a doubling) of the minimum wage would have a net negative impact on low skilled, low wage workers? Because that is what I believe would be the most likely outcome, so my opposition to this policy is because I DO care about these people.

BTW, I won't speak for Sturg, but I think a large part of the "LOL" was in reaction to the small participation rate for the strike (less than 1/10th of 1% of the city's fast food workers).

You are correct

[thethe]

Why don't these people suck it up, work hard, and get promoted? I'd imgaine that its pretty damn easy to get a promotion or two at McDonalds.

Just another example of people expecting more for doing less.

[57Brave]

So basically there is no room for the belief that a rise (not even a rise...a doubling) of the minimum wage would have a net negative impact on low skilled, low wage workers? Because that is what I believe would be the most likely outcome, so my opposition to this policy is because I DO care about these people.

BTW, I won't speak for Sturg, but I think a large part of the "LOL" was in reaction to the small participation rate for the strike (less than 1/10th of 1% of the city's fast food workers).

data proves this not true
you could look it up.

[goldfly]

before i go down the road of fantasy world

i don't think it is healthy to have an extreme rich while having a lot poor

i believe wages should go with inflation and that raising wages on the poor employees means the "CEO" should get paid less

but i also believe in a healthy economy and strong middle class and country

totally insane, i know

[zitothebrave]

before i go down the road of fantasy world

i don't think it is healthy to have an extreme rich while having a lot poor

i believe wages should go with inflation and that raising wages on the poor employees means the "CEO" should get paid less

but i also believe in a healthy economy and strong middle class and country

totally insane, i know

The rich should not be making as much as they should, but that's nothing to do with Fastfood workers getting more money. But fastfood managers and things like that should. Give the people below something to aspire to and those who don't want to move up then let them toil but people who want to move up can.

[goldfly]

The rich should not be making as much as they should, but that's nothing to do with Fastfood workers getting more money. But fastfood managers and things like that should. Give the people below something to aspire to and those who don't want to move up then let them toil but people who want to move up can.

are you thinking i don't think wages should go up for everyone?

[sturg33]

Oh and, per usual… You didn't answer the question. I'll ask again:

Why do they deserve a better wage? They have no skills or education

.

[goldfly]

i guess you are just deciding to keep overlooking my thoughts on wages vs inflation

[thethe]

You should have a certain degree of motivation to achieve something in your life. I'm sure if you work hard for a year or two at McDonald you would be promoted into a position that is around 30-40k. Not great but a start. Guess what? If they keep working for another couple of years maybe they get another promotion. Who knows? After 10-15 years of hard work maybe they aren't worried about not making enough money because they finally are making it.

[yeezus]

You should have a certain degree of motivation to achieve something in your life. I'm sure if you work hard for a year or two at McDonald you would be promoted into a position that is around 30-40k. Not great but a start. Guess what? If they keep working for another couple of years maybe they get another promotion. Who knows? After 10-15 years of hard work maybe they aren't worried about not making enough money because they finally are making it.

seriously?
you think working at micky d's for 2 years could potentially earn you 40k?
my mom has worked her ass off in a doctor's office for 12 years in a wealthy town full of wealthy patients run by wealthy doctors and she doesn't make 40K a year.
oooooh but work hard! you will surely supplant the current manager and make 40K!
wow man.

[thethe]

There is slightly more room for advancement in a McDonalds as opposed ot the doctors office where your mother is working.

[zitothebrave]

I made more money as a sales rep for Verizon than anyone who worked at the McDonalds I worked at in high school

Even if you gun into management. you're lookingat like 12 an hour tops.

[yeezus]

There is slightly more room for advancement in a McDonalds as opposed ot the doctors office where your mother is working.

do you think mcdonald's will hire a manager, pay them 40K (instead of 22), even if they don't need one, just because someone worked hard for two years?
i <3 logic

[thethe]

do you think mcdonald's will hire a manager, pay them 40K (instead of 22), even if they don't need one, just because someone worked hard for two years?
i <3 logic

Do you realize how many McDonalds there are? There are lots of postings for manager positions. They probably have a hard time getting good workers. McDonalds is just like any corporation. If you work hard you will eventually be rewarded. Everyone always believes they should get paid more. Welcome to life!

[goldfly]

this thread went from pathetic (laughing at poor people) to laughable (they could work harder and work their way through mcdonalds)

[thethe]

So you're saying McDoanlds doesn't promote people?

[sturg33]

So workers should just get double their pay, despite not deserving it?

Again, if these workers are so great, why hasn't Costco gobbled them all up to pay them double? There has to be a million jobs out there willing to pay $35K a year to someone for flipping burgers

[weso1]

If you're going to have a minimum wage, it does seem kind of silly not to keep up with the rate of inflation. If crumpfly ever gets his way and a maximum wage ever exists then you bet your ass they'll be raising that puppy with inflation.

This thread made me hungry. I think a trip to McDonald's is in my future. I think I'll pay with large bills just to rub it in a little.

[sturg33]

i guess you are just deciding to keep overlooking my thoughts on wages vs inflation

So because the fed decides to print trillions of dollars every year, that means low skilled and uneducated workers should automatically get raises? Employers must be forced by threat of law to pay more?

Do you feel the same about your mom and pop stores you love so much?

[sturg33]

this thread went from pathetic (laughing at poor people) to laughable (they could work harder and work their way through mcdonalds)

You have a reading problem. I was laughing at the "strike" that was such a failure that they couldn't pay fast food workers to participate in.

I was also amused that "strikers" were quoted as saying how easy it was to get the job, and that they don't know where else they would go... yeah, THEY SHOULD GET DOUBLE THEIR MONEY!!!

[goldfly]

If you're going to have a minimum wage, it does seem kind of silly not to keep up with the rate of inflation. If crumpfly ever gets his way and a maximum wage ever exists then you bet your ass they'll be raising that puppy with inflation.

This thread made me hungry. I think a trip to McDonald's is in my future. I think I'll pay with large bills just to rub it in a little.

my way is to have a maximum wage?


you don't have anything more than a $20

let's be honest

[goldfly]

You have a reading problem.
no

i don't

[goldfly]

So because the fed decides to print trillions of dollars every year, that means low skilled and uneducated workers should automatically get raises? Employers must be forced by threat of law to pay more?

Do you feel the same about your mom and pop stores you love so much?

hey look a change of subject that overlooks the facts

i love when you used the word "forced" in a conversation that is about protests

it's like you don't know anything about the struggle of workers rights

mom and pops opens it up to an interesting angle and not 100% sure how would i would handle it as of right now but it isn't like we don't already make exceptions for small businesses on things

[acesfull86]

data proves this not true
you could look it up.

Incorrect. Maybe the cherry picked data you get from the DailyKos, but in the real world, there is no conclusive "data" that proves your team is right on this issue. Sorry.

This issue may be settled and proven in the narrow world of the liberal blogosphere, but I can assure you it's not close to settled in the world of economics.

[acesfull86]

do you think mcdonald's will hire a manager, pay them 40K (instead of 22), even if they don't need one, just because someone worked hard for two years?
i <3 logic

Do you think McDonald's will keep the same labor force at double the wage bill?

[57Brave]

Do you think McDonald's will keep the same labor force at double the wage bill?

Yes. Based on McD practices world wide --
Which is the only data. Outside of what Bill O'Reilly thinks - or the Kochs or Newt or Sarah or Rushbo

Please take some time t learn the difference between data and opinion / bias

[acesfull86]

Show me the data that proves an industry will accept a doubling of their wage bill without impacting employment.

[57Brave]

Look it up yourself --
learn something

[weso1]

my way is to have a maximum wage?


you don't have anything more than a $20

let's be honest

Well yeah... and schockingly, I'm not going to McDonald's either.

[acesfull86]

Look it up yourself --
learn something

That's what I figured.

[zitothebrave]

Well McDonalds would just dump the costs onto consumers. Not the worst thing

[thethe]

Amazing that people with no skills can demand more compensation for their mindless work. Got to love the mindset of this country.

[weso1]

Amazing that people with no skills can demand more compensation for their mindless work. Got to love the mindset of this country.

You're pathetic and shameful for not pretending to care about fast food workers and high school teens.

[yeezus]

Amazing that people with no skills can demand more compensation for their mindless work. Got to love the mindset of this country.

Yes, because inflation is real. A once livable wage is no long livable.

[jpx7]

So workers should just get double their pay, despite not deserving it?

How do you magically discern what people "deserve"?

[jpx7]

Well McDonalds would just dump the costs onto consumers. Not the worst thing

It'd probably be a good thing, in a certain sense. It's sad and disgusting that the least nutritious, most unhealthy foodstuffs in this country are the most available, most heavily marketed, and the cheapest — especially considering how much waste is involved in the maelstrom of industrial processes that bring fast-food components from the origination point to one's mouth.

[Julio3000]

How do you magically discern what people "deserve"?

There's a lot of that going around.

[jpx7]

Amazing that people with no skills can demand more compensation for their mindless work. Got to love the mindset of this country.

Your mindset seems to me to be, largely, the "mindset of this country." And yes: it boggles the mind a bit.

[Julio3000]

Your mindset seems to me to be, largely, the "mindset of this country." And yes: it boggles the mind a bit.

Yeah, that.

[goldfly]

Amazing that people with no skills can demand more compensation for their mindless work. Got to love the mindset of this country.

your mindset is very sickening

it is crazy that the people here that bitch about welfare the most also look down on WORKERS who aren't getting paid enough to actually live above the poverty line

[acesfull86]

How do you magically discern what people "deserve"?

Aren't the $15/hr min wage advocates doing the same thing?

[thethe]

Do something better with your life than working the cashier at Wendy's.

[thethe]

Your mindset seems to me to be, largely, the "mindset of this country." And yes: it boggles the mind a bit.

Why should someone who works as a fast food cashier earn enough to raise a family? Maybe that person should have thought twice before conceiving considering they have a horrible job.

[goldfly]

https://scontent-b-dfw.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/1458569_10151851873726275_1875456637_n.jpg

[thethe]

If I want to make more money I have to work harder and get more technical expertise. Why should that be different from any other job?

[57Brave]

the first sentence of the first comment I saw after the article points out
Paul Ryan makes $87 an hour.
For getting everything wrong!
$87 / per mudder phuggin hour

And the man that works 40 hour weeks picking up his garbage and servng his hamburger makes $7.50 for that same hour. To only be vilified for being poor by the self righteous.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/eugene-robinson-obama-should-raise-the-minimum-wage/2013/12/06/0655626c-5ded-11e3-be07-006c776266ed_story.html

[thethe]

Do you really want to compare the overall knowledge base and education the two of those workers have?

[weso1]

Yes, because inflation is real. A once livable wage is no long livable.

Then how are people living on it, or is everyone who makes min wage dying? :YDS:

[Julio3000]

I just think it bears mentioning again that Paul Ryan, a big fan of Ayn Rand, has spent his entire career working in government.

[gtcway]

How do you handle the fact that if minimum wage suddenly doubled, lots of goods and services will go up in price to compensate the business owners. All of a sudden, minimum wage workers fall back below the poverty line. Some of you guys act like if labor prices rise, it will come out of the big bad greedy business owners' pocket and not be passed on to their customers.

[thethe]

How do you handle the fact that if minimum wage suddenly doubled, lots of goods and services will go up in price to compensate the business owners. All of a sudden, minimum wage workers fall back below the poverty line. Some of you guys act like if labor prices rise, it will come out of the big bad greedy business owners' pocket and not be passed on to their customers.

No, everything will stay the same but the workers salary. Lets forget that fast food restaurants will pass their additional expense to the consumer which will result in less sales which will result in less revenues which will result in reduction of work staff.

[57Brave]

Suppose, for conversation sake, the minimum wage goes up to $10 /hr.
What would you guess would be the price of a Big Mac?
a) the price of a small horse
b) $10 to match minimum wage
c) $25
d) go from $2.50 to $2.55)
or
e) would McD raise it to $3.50 just because they could -- like insurance companies did with HC the past 2 1/2 years

[jpx7]

Some of you guys act like if labor prices rise, it will come out of the big bad greedy business owners' pocket and not be passed on to their customers.

While I don't think it's as simple as you assert, either, the cost of wage increases should "come out of the big bad greedy business owners' pocket".

[gtcway]

While I don't think it's as simple as you assert, either, the cost of wage increases should "come out of the big bad greedy business owners' pocket".
Probably, but we all know that will never happen.

[acesfull86]

I just think it bears mentioning again that Paul Ryan, a big fan of Ayn Rand, has spent his entire career working in government.

That seems like a no win situation for libertarians*. If you don't go into politics, you risk the rules being written by those who philosophically oppose you. If you go into politics, you're a hypocrite for accepting pay from the government.

*I don't consider Paul Ryan to be a libertarian

[Oklahomahawk]

Amazing that people with no skills can demand more compensation for their mindless work. Got to love the mindset of this country.

Hey, I'll thank you to refer to Congress in a slightly more respectful tone sir!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :mad:

[sturg33]

How do you magically discern what people "deserve"?

I don't. Their employers and the worker does. In the current state, both agree that they should make $x/hour. If both didn't agree about that, the worker would not be working there.

But YOU want to decided that the worker, who previously deserved $7.50 an hour based on the FACT that both he and the employer agreed to this wage, should now be making $$14/hour (or whatever).

[sturg33]

https://scontent-b-dfw.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/1458569_10151851873726275_1875456637_n.jpg

If everyone was highly educated and worked hard, nobody would be willing to do those jobs for $7/hour. Thus, those jobs wouldn't exist unless the employer decided it was worth it to pay the highly educated, hardworking employee more.

[sturg33]

the first sentence of the first comment I saw after the article points out
Paul Ryan makes $87 an hour.
For getting everything wrong!
$87 / per mudder phuggin hour

And the man that works 40 hour weeks picking up his garbage and servng his hamburger makes $7.50 for that same hour. To only be vilified for being poor by the self righteous.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/eugene-robinson-obama-should-raise-the-minimum-wage/2013/12/06/0655626c-5ded-11e3-be07-006c776266ed_story.html

You never disappoint

[sturg33]

I just think it bears mentioning again that Paul Ryan, a big fan of Ayn Rand, has spent his entire career working in government.

LOL if you think Paul Ryan ACTUALLY believes the principles of Ayn Rand

[sturg33]

While I don't think it's as simple as you assert, either, the cost of wage increases should "come out of the big bad greedy business owners' pocket".

I'll go ahead and tell you that if the minimum wage is doubled in this country, my company will outsource ALL of our call center agent jobs to India… That's about 5,000 employees.

[57Brave]

you must work for some real doozies.
First they raise your HC by 79% then they threaten to send 5000 jobs to India because a fast food worker makes a living wage.

You must work for Maggie's Brother

[sturg33]

you must work for some real doozies.
First they raise your HC by 79% then they threaten to send 5000 jobs to India because a fast food worker makes a living wage.

You must work for Maggie's Brother

As usual, you're an idiot.

The HC increase was because they are now ensuring everyone in the damn company. I'm subsidizing those folks.

The outsourcing is a pure hypothetical… Obviously, they are not "threatening" anything. I just happen to work closely with operations and am sure what the fallout would be if something so stupid happened.

[57Brave]

So they did raise your HC 79% ( blaming it on Obama) and you made up the part about outsourcing 5000 jobs (because a Big Mac costs 5 cents more).

Gotcha

[sturg33]

So they did raise your HC 79% ( blaming it on Obama) and you made up the part about outsourcing 5000 jobs (because a Big Mac costs 5 cents more).

Gotcha

I have told you why the HC was raised 78% (still a much lesser premium the average around the DC market, by the way). You have yet to refute it other than "you're company is just greedy!"

And, i'm telling you what WOULD happen if the minimum wage was doubled. I am 90% sure those jobs would go bye bye based on 3 year forecasting I've been assisting with.

[sturg33]

Let's take a simple example, shall we?

Walmart employees about 2 million people. I would say (just guessing) around 1.5 million are minimum wage workers.

So if the minimum wage was doubled, to around $15/hr… this is what would happen.

- assuming a minimum wage worker works 30 hours a week, and works 50 weeks a year

1. a minimum wage worker gets paid an additional $225 per week (based on a $7.50/hour raise
2. That amounts to $11,250 more per year for the worker
3. $11,250 x 1.5 million workers = $16,875,000,000. For those counting, that's an additional $16.8 BILLION dollars out of Walmart shareholder profits
4. But it doesn't stop there, don't forget about social security. Walmart would have to contribute 6.2% of that 16.8 BILLION to SS.
5. That means the SS contribution is $1,046,250,000.
6. This brings our grand total of new contributions from Walmart to $17.9 BILLION dollars.
7. And when 57 gets his way, they will also have to pay health care for these folks. But I won't even get into that math.

So, if the minimum wage is doubled, 57 expects WM to just hand away $18 Billion dollars out of their bottom line. Anyone with a brain knows that will never happen. What would happen is:
1. WM employs SIGNIFICANTLY less people, thus making *their* minimum wage = $0
2. WM passes the cost on to consumers. Who are the consumers of WM? Poor people.

Sounds like a great plan.

[yeezus]

Just to clarify, has anyone here actually asked for a doubling of the min. wage, or is that just what's in the story? I haven't seen anyone advocate doubling.

[Bj1133]

Treating a job at McDonalds as a career and the "main source" of income to raise a family is the problem here. Those jobs aren't meant for that purpose.

[yeezus]

http://savetheovaries.files.wordpress.com/2013/11/charlie-day-off-to-job-land-where-jobs-grow-on-jobbies.jpg

[57Brave]

What you just explained is Wal-Mart exists on solely on exploiting their workers or as some employers would put it , their "people"
.
Why don't you use COSTCO as an example?
Because they seem to be getting on just fine with their pay scale. You must have missed the post a few days back showing that Wal-Mart is really not that profitable to investors because their rate of return has steadily diminished over the past 15 years.
Whereas COSTCO is steadily rising
Was Wal-Mart the example you really wanted to use?

Still not sure how much that Big Mac will cost once the rate is raised? Becasue someone somewhere will devise a better model and will make money and the dinosaur business' will go the way of, well, the dinosaurs. You underestimate the ingenuity of the Free Market system to adapt to new standards. Because what you are missing not only in this discussion but most every other one is the fact of that as things change so does everything around it. You base these numbers on current standards and like I just said -- some one somewhere will figure out how to use the new standards to their advantage.Should Wal-Mart or McD go under --- so be it. Adapt or perish -- isn't that how that goes?

So in a nut shell what you are arguing for is the survival of McDonalds and Wal-Mart to exploit your fellow citizens. Do I understand you right?

Oh but hey, I never fail to disappoint.

[zitothebrave]

That I believe is the second time that meme has been used on this particular board. Both times were quite amusing.

[Oklahomahawk]

Careful sturg my friend, you're straying a little far from Ron, an actual Libertarian and a little too close to Rand, a radical Republican in Libertarian clothing, so to speak. Rand's about as Libertarian as Michelle "Sarah Palin AFTER the lobotomy" Bachmann.

Oh and while you guys are so busy worrying about how much the fine folks at Wal-Mart might have to pay their near-minimum wage workers (who are much closer to you guys' age than teenagers by the way, in spite of what your far right friends constantly tell you) don't forget that the top 4 or 5 Walton family members have about as much green as almost half of Americans put together. Oh and also while you're whining about income redistribution you might wake up for a moment and realize it IS going on and HAS BEEN going on since the wonderful Utopian Reagan 80's, but not in the top to bottom direction the Goebbels-esque Fox Business Channel folks might tell you, but in the exact OPPOSITE direction. So for anyone who's interested in the REAL truth instead of the Kool-Aid flavored "pity the poor downtrodden rich folks, er the job-creators" try feeling for those who have had their jobs sent to India, etc. so the aforementioned top 5% can own a Gulf-Stream 4 instead of a Gulf-Stream 3, while at the same time bemoaning the lack of company loyalty among their workers (those who are still here by the way) and pay their faithful whores on talk radio and certain elements at Fox to feed you more bull**** about how it's the poor who are fighting a class war against the true Americans, those who are just trying to live the American dream.

Oh and just take a moment before you turn on me for telling you the ACTUAL TRUTH, instead of what you're force fed every day and do a little real research somewhere that isn't a far left OR a far right source, or just take me up on my offer that's at least a decade old and for those who consider themselves Christians and pray to THE God of heaven (who's neither red nor blue) and ask HIM for the REAL TRUTH, that is IF you have the NADS, I distinctly remember more than a couple of you who turned down my challenge back during W's Utopia because they didn't need to talk to the actual God I suggested, they said, if I remember correctly, they trusted his messengers here on Earth and didn't need to go that far.

So, have those devils in Armani clothing bring back the jobs, pay their people a decent living wage (no I didn't say split the revenues equally across the board) and then we'll talk about how much they're suffering. And for anyone who's shaking their heads and muttering about how sorry an SOB I might be, let me finish with this, no matter how much it might piss you off to hear it from me right now, it's about 1,000,000 X better to hear it from me now than from God Almighty come Judgement Day and while I may not speak for America's religious community (Gee I wonder why???) you know I speak the truth, that's what causing that heat flash in your gut that your buddy in the red flannel underwear and the cool horns and pitchfork tells you is just righteous indignation.

Oh and peace out all my friends.

[57Brave]

Treating a job at McDonalds as a career and the "main source" of income to raise a family is the problem here. Those jobs aren't meant for that purpose.

There are people an situations where McD is the only option.
And, who says a person cant have a career making burgers -
Are you too good for that ?
Who are you to judge whether a person deserves a living wage based on what they do for a living?

doesn't the person flipping the burgers serve a purpose in our society as much as say a person that works retail or sells insurance?
Or, sells automobiles - why does a person that suckers you into buying a used KIA deserving of a living wage but taht person that sweeps the floor in Wal-Mart isn't?

[acesfull86]

Just to clarify, has anyone here actually asked for a doubling of the min. wage, or is that just what's in the story? I haven't seen anyone advocate doubling.

Isn't that what the people are fighting for (http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/12/05/us-usa-employment-fastfood-idUSBRE9B40WW20131205)?

(Reuters) - Fast-food workers in hundreds of U.S. cities staged a day of rallies on Thursday to demand higher wages, saying the pay was too low to feed a family and forced most to accept public assistance.

About 100 workers in Chicago marched along Michigan Avenue with a large costumed Grinch, chanting: "We can't survive on $7.25." Protesters want the hourly U.S. minimum wage raised to $15 from $7.25.

I thought that's what the discussion is. Or is say $9/hr up from $7.25 considered a "living wage?"

[acesfull86]

So, have those devils in Armani clothing bring back the jobs, pay their people a decent living wage (no I didn't say split the revenues equally across the board) and then we'll talk about how much they're suffering.

It's a nice post, but I'm not sure exactly what your "solution" is. First mandate a "decent living wage," then tell businesses that not only are they not allowed to reduce their employment, but they also have to bring back jobs from overseas (at a higher cost than when they were first outsourced)? And is this to come directly out of the pockets of shareholders/executives without any costs being passed onto the consumers which are made up of mostly the middle/poor classes?

Somehow I don't think that's going to fly.

[yeezus]

Isn't that what the people are fighting for (http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/12/05/us-usa-employment-fastfood-idUSBRE9B40WW20131205)?

(Reuters) - Fast-food workers in hundreds of U.S. cities staged a day of rallies on Thursday to demand higher wages, saying the pay was too low to feed a family and forced most to accept public assistance.

About 100 workers in Chicago marched along Michigan Avenue with a large costumed Grinch, chanting: "We can't survive on $7.25." Protesters want the hourly U.S. minimum wage raised to $15 from $7.25.

I thought that's what the discussion is. Or is say $9/hr up from $7.25 considered a "living wage?"

As I said, is that what's in the story, or do the people here who want a higher min. wage calling for it to be doubled?
Not sure where you pulled $9 out of, either.

[Oklahomahawk]

It's a nice post, but I'm not sure exactly what your "solution" is. First mandate a "decent living wage," then tell businesses that not only are they not allowed to reduce their employment, but they also have to bring back jobs from overseas (at a higher cost than when they were first outsourced)? And is this to come directly out of the pockets of shareholders/executives without any costs being passed onto the consumers which are made up of mostly the middle/poor classes?

Somehow I don't think that's going to fly.

I don't have a solution, but if you think things have gotten to the point where they are now by sheer coincidence or just because the "job creators" are so much more hard working and just pulled themselves up by the bootstraps in that wonderful free market economy, where the only thing separating the successful from the losers is their work ethic then you're already a "heck of a guy" and you'll put me on ignore like so many others have. Or you could take me up on my challenge to ask a real higher power if I'm right or if I'm full of it...

[acesfull86]

As I said, is that what's in the story, or do the people here who want a higher min. wage calling for it to be doubled?
Not sure where you pulled $9 out of, either.

You tell me...I don't want the minimum wage raised at all but I take it you do? So what's the number? I'm just going off what the protesters are asking for ($15). Where I pulled $9 from is I believe that is the number Obama called for the wage to be raised to (and it might be a more realistic number to achieve than $15, though I don't know if it would satisfy those who demand a "living wage").

[acesfull86]

I don't have a solution, but if you think things have gotten to the point where they are now by sheer coincidence or just because the "job creators" are so much more hard working and just pulled themselves up by the bootstraps in that wonderful free market economy, where the only thing separating the successful from the losers is their work ethic then you're already a "heck of a guy" and you'll put me on ignore like so many others have. Or you could take me up on my challenge to ask a real higher power if I'm right or if I'm full of it...

*paging 57....*

[Oklahomahawk]

I know I"m not sturg, and I rarely quote Ron Paul, though I am on record as saying he is a good honest man, just a Libertarian which I can't really go along with generally speaking. Still the truth is the truth.

Corporate Fascism (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q4jKNTvD53o)

[Oklahomahawk]

*paging 57....*

When he gets here ask him how often we agree on anything...

[57Brave]

When he gets here ask him how often we agree on anything...

When you get away from the notion of "both sides..." blah-blah blah we actually agree on quite a bit. All the while disagreeing on quite a bit.
See, I can do it too :)

[weso1]

I've come up with a few questions for the raise the min wage folks (myself included):

1) If you raise min wage and increase it to the rate of inflation would that increase the likelihood of min wage jobs becoming more automated? Eventually it's just going to be cheaper to not hire min wage labor at all.
2) Would raising min wage to 15 per hour take a lot of folks off food stamps? Wouldn't that cancel out the raise in the min wage making it somewhat of a moot point. And the one benefit I like about food stamps is that it has to be spent on food. Or would you increase the income max for food stamp participants?
3) Any concern that prices will increase in the very stores and restaurants that min wage earners visit the most?

[57Brave]

To answer your questions here are pages n pages of blogposts explaining the workings. Also offers pro and con analyses

https://www.google.com/search?q=austrailia+mcdonalds+minimum+wage&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

[sturg33]

As I said, is that what's in the story, or do the people here who want a higher min. wage calling for it to be doubled?
Not sure where you pulled $9 out of, either.

See 57's link he just posted... every title is calling for $15

[sturg33]

Just to clarify, has anyone here actually asked for a doubling of the min. wage, or is that just what's in the story? I haven't seen anyone advocate doubling.

Yes

[sturg33]

http://savetheovaries.files.wordpress.com/2013/11/charlie-day-off-to-job-land-where-jobs-grow-on-jobbies.jpg

So you acknowledge that getting a job is not easy... but you think it will be easier if the minimum wage is doubled?

OK

[weso1]

By the way. Anyone can live reasonably comfortably on minimum wage if they choose to. It's all about location. Let's say for example a single mother with 2 kids makes minimum wage and only works 40 hours per week. She makes about 1200 per month.

I just pulled up a random city (Hillsborough, NC) I know has good schools and fairly cheap living (certainly not the cheapest place).

2 bedroom apartment with pool and fitness center in a safe neighborhood - $750
Food - Food stamps (500 per month at no cost to the single parent)
Childcare - (120 per month based on state of North Carolina's childcare program)
Health insurance - Medicaid (no cost)
School - public (free)
tax - negligible

So those are the most important items above... food, shelter, childcare and healthcare in a safe town with a very good school system. So that leaves 330 bucks left over for utilities (North Carolina programs help with this), gas, an inexpensive car (likely could have one donated to them by charity), clothes, toys, etc. which is more than enough to live reasonably comfortably. They don't have to worry about costly home repairs. Am I missing anything? Keep in mind that I'm sure there are even less expensive towns out there if the single parent wants more income for miscellaneous items. And this is for one who only chooses to work 40 hours.

Now granted, it's not the ideal life style by any means however, the idea that min wage is not a "liveable" wage in this country is a pretty dishonest one. It's all about location. If you want to live comfortably then you have to be willing to move. But the truth is that most Americans have to be willing to move to get what they want.

[sturg33]

What you just explained is Wal-Mart exists on solely on exploiting their workers or as some employers would put it , their "people"
.
Why don't you use COSTCO as an example?
Because they seem to be getting on just fine with their pay scale. You must have missed the post a few days back showing that Wal-Mart is really not that profitable to investors because their rate of return has steadily diminished over the past 15 years.
Whereas COSTCO is steadily rising
Was Wal-Mart the example you really wanted to use?

Still not sure how much that Big Mac will cost once the rate is raised? Becasue someone somewhere will devise a better model and will make money and the dinosaur business' will go the way of, well, the dinosaurs. You underestimate the ingenuity of the Free Market system to adapt to new standards. Because what you are missing not only in this discussion but most every other one is the fact of that as things change so does everything around it. You base these numbers on current standards and like I just said -- some one somewhere will figure out how to use the new standards to their advantage.Should Wal-Mart or McD go under --- so be it. Adapt or perish -- isn't that how that goes?

So in a nut shell what you are arguing for is the survival of McDonalds and Wal-Mart to exploit your fellow citizens. Do I understand you right?

Oh but hey, I never fail to disappoint.

You're obsession with Costco is weird and annoying... Stop comparing everything to Costco. They are completely different businesses with completely different business models.

1. Costco employees less than 200,000 people. Walmart employees more than 2 million. I wonder if Costco would be able to pay that wage to 10 times more employees?
2. Costco is a membership model... A lot of their revenue is based on recurring revenue streams, not cheap products. This is a huge advantage
3. Costco does $89 billion in sales in 2012... Walmart did about $450 Billion in sales. Could Costco's practices be sustainable of a program as large as Walmart? No.

[sturg33]

Careful sturg my friend, you're straying a little far from Ron, an actual Libertarian and a little too close to Rand, a radical Republican in Libertarian clothing, so to speak. Rand's about as Libertarian as Michelle "Sarah Palin AFTER the lobotomy" Bachmann.

Oh and while you guys are so busy worrying about how much the fine folks at Wal-Mart might have to pay their near-minimum wage workers (who are much closer to you guys' age than teenagers by the way, in spite of what your far right friends constantly tell you) don't forget that the top 4 or 5 Walton family members have about as much green as almost half of Americans put together. Oh and also while you're whining about income redistribution you might wake up for a moment and realize it IS going on and HAS BEEN going on since the wonderful Utopian Reagan 80's, but not in the top to bottom direction the Goebbels-esque Fox Business Channel folks might tell you, but in the exact OPPOSITE direction. So for anyone who's interested in the REAL truth instead of the Kool-Aid flavored "pity the poor downtrodden rich folks, er the job-creators" try feeling for those who have had their jobs sent to India, etc. so the aforementioned top 5% can own a Gulf-Stream 4 instead of a Gulf-Stream 3, while at the same time bemoaning the lack of company loyalty among their workers (those who are still here by the way) and pay their faithful whores on talk radio and certain elements at Fox to feed you more bull**** about how it's the poor who are fighting a class war against the true Americans, those who are just trying to live the American dream.

Oh and just take a moment before you turn on me for telling you the ACTUAL TRUTH, instead of what you're force fed every day and do a little real research somewhere that isn't a far left OR a far right source, or just take me up on my offer that's at least a decade old and for those who consider themselves Christians and pray to THE God of heaven (who's neither red nor blue) and ask HIM for the REAL TRUTH, that is IF you have the NADS, I distinctly remember more than a couple of you who turned down my challenge back during W's Utopia because they didn't need to talk to the actual God I suggested, they said, if I remember correctly, they trusted his messengers here on Earth and didn't need to go that far.

So, have those devils in Armani clothing bring back the jobs, pay their people a decent living wage (no I didn't say split the revenues equally across the board) and then we'll talk about how much they're suffering. And for anyone who's shaking their heads and muttering about how sorry an SOB I might be, let me finish with this, no matter how much it might piss you off to hear it from me right now, it's about 1,000,000 X better to hear it from me now than from God Almighty come Judgement Day and while I may not speak for America's religious community (Gee I wonder why???) you know I speak the truth, that's what causing that heat flash in your gut that your buddy in the red flannel underwear and the cool horns and pitchfork tells you is just righteous indignation.

Oh and peace out all my friends.

All I did was show a simple math example of what raising the minimum wage would do to a corporation like Walmart. The math is the math.

Here's the thing. Walmart is not perfect, and they get tones of corporate welfare which I do not support. But people are really dumb if you think just forcing business to raise minimum wage isn't going to have negative impacts. It does and it will. And it won't be Walmart who suffers.

[sturg33]

To answer your questions here are pages n pages of blogposts explaining the workings. Also offers pro and con analyses

https://www.google.com/search?q=austrailia+mcdonalds+minimum+wage&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

I would actually like to hear your answers - rather than google. I know you can't think for yourself, but try to at least read an article and then remember it without copy and pasting.

[sturg33]

By the way. Anyone can live reasonably comfortably on minimum wage if they choose to. It's all about location. Let's say for example a single mother with 2 kids makes minimum wage and only works 40 hours per week. She makes about 1200 per month.

I just pulled up a random city (Hillsborough, NC) I know has good schools and fairly cheap living (certainly not the cheapest place).

2 bedroom apartment with pool and fitness center in a safe neighborhood - $750
Food - Food stamps (500 per month at no cost to the single parent)
Childcare - (120 per month based on state of North Carolina's childcare program)
Health insurance - Medicaid (no cost)
School - public (free)
tax - negligible

So those are the most important items above... food, shelter, childcare and healthcare in a safe town with a very good school system. So that leaves 330 bucks left over for utilities (North Carolina programs help with this), gas, an inexpensive car (likely could have one donated to them by charity), clothes, toys, etc. which is more than enough to live reasonably comfortably. They don't have to worry about costly home repairs. Am I missing anything? Keep in mind that I'm sure there are even less expensive towns out there if the single parent wants more income for miscellaneous items. And this is for one who only chooses to work 40 hours.

Now granted, it's not the ideal life style by any means however, the idea that min wage is not a "liveable" wage in this country is a pretty dishonest one. It's all about location. If you want to live comfortably then you have to be willing to move. But the truth is that most Americans have to be willing to move to get what they want.


It is a good example. Because if that person is only working 40 hours per week, she is not doing the right things for her and her family. She should probably be working 60 hours a week.

But you forgot to include the iphones and ipad for the kids. Don't forget the essentials!

[weso1]

To answer your questions here are pages n pages of blogposts explaining the workings. Also offers pro and con analyses

https://www.google.com/search?q=austrailia+mcdonalds+minimum+wage&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

That doesn't help at all, but thanks for trying. I'm looking for min wage increase proponents on this board to answer these questions based on circumstances right here in the good ole USofA. If you can't answer the questions then please don't reply.

[yeezus]

Yes

where has someone said they want it doubled? the conversation seems to have shifted (at least in this thread) to just simply raising it.

[thethe]

http://savetheovaries.files.wordpress.com/2013/11/charlie-day-off-to-job-land-where-jobs-grow-on-jobbies.jpg

Plenty of jobs out there if you made the right decisions in your life.

[sturg33]

where has someone said they want it doubled? the conversation seems to have shifted (at least in this thread) to just simply raising it.

Go look at the google link 57 told us to read through

[57Brave]

That doesn't help at all, but thanks for trying. I'm looking for min wage increase proponents on this board to answer these questions based on circumstances right here in the good ole USofA. If you can't answer the questions then please don't reply.

If you don't like the answers -- stop asking the questions. Or at least ask question that require some thought rather than a knee jerk response. Or even better -- consider the wealth of opinion that is well written and well thought out,better informed than you or I and general is from the world of reality where opinions are expected to be backed up with data.


There are pages and pages of answers -examples opinions and counter opinions for the google request questions you posed.
You know where I stand -- how about understanding why I stand there ---\.

[57Brave]

I would actually like to hear your answers - rather than google. I know you can't think for yourself, but try to at least read an article and then remember it without copy and pasting.


I read an article today that said raising the minimum wage will bring 5000 jobs from India back to the USA.
It is true because I know it
and I know how you hate copy and paste article tht come from somewhere other than the ghost writers of Ron Paulbut here
is just one more reason why those 5000 jobs will come back to the US.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/12/11/india-court-homosexuality-ruling_n_4423496.html

But hey, they wouldn't be homo if they worked on their foul shots or watched more football or I don't know -- payed more attention to NASCAR, followed Lynn Cheney -- I just really can't wait for the fist shakers to tell me why those 5000 jobs aren't coming back. Because I just said how they are coming back

Yes, I am mocking you

[weso1]

If you don't like the answers -- stop asking the questions. Or at least ask question that require some thought rather than a knee jerk response. Or even better -- consider the wealth of opinion that is well written and well thought out,better informed than you or I and general is from the world of reality where opinions are expected to be backed up with data.


There are pages and pages of answers -examples opinions and counter opinions for the google request questions you posed.
You know where I stand -- how about understanding why I stand there ---\.

Your reply is absurdly belligerent. First, your google search was incredibly unhelpful and didn't answer any of my questions. Second, I'm on a message board where the whole point is to discuss things with fellow posters. Third, you ask much less thought out questions on this board all the time. Sometimes it's just better not to reply to posts rather than just being an obnoxious ass.

[57Brave]

You post how a woman with 2 kids and a full time job can live on $1200 a month then call me belligerent.
Gotcha
"but only if she ..."

////////////////////////

I've come up with a few questions for the raise the min wage folks (myself included):

1) If you raise min wage and increase it to the rate of inflation would that increase the likelihood of min wage jobs becoming more automated? Eventually it's just going to be cheaper to not hire min wage labor at all.
If you bothered to read any blog reporting on how Australia can do $15/hr minimum wage you would see the answer. Nothing really intellectually challenging. It is not an opinion but a reported fact.

2) Would raising min wage to 15 per hour take a lot of folks off food stamps? Wouldn't that cancel out the raise in the min wage making it somewhat of a moot point. And the one benefit I like about food stamps is that it has to be spent on food. Or would you increase the income max for food stamp participants?
Of course the standards for food stamps would change. That too is quantified on the Google page


3) Any concern that prices will increase in the very stores and restaurants that min wage earners visit the most?
I asked yesterday how much a Big Mac would cost post min wage increase. Never heard back from anyone.
Have you considered some of the people that gain from the raising of min wage would spend some of that money?But, my question to the price of a Big Mac speaks to how it really won't be noticable. Or at least any more noticable that McD's built in COLA raise it gives itself
To either question yours or mine -- who knows how much exactly.

[zitothebrave]

The problem with incresed minimum wage is not on McDonalds cause they'll make it work. It's on the small businesses. If you double the minimum wage, all of the sudden you're putting a squeeze on businesses who operate month to month. Walmart and McDonalds will adjust. And scoop up the remaining pieces of the small businesses that went under

[57Brave]

The problem with incresed minimum wage is not on McDonalds cause they'll make it work. It's on the small businesses. If you double the minimum wage, all of the sudden you're putting a squeeze on businesses who operate month to month. Walmart and McDonalds will adjust. And scoop up the remaining pieces of the small businesses that went under

Going back to late 60's-70's when Min Wage was governed by rate of inflation -- small business' coped. Of course that was before Mom and Pop small business (guessing that is the picture in yur head) were forced to compete with - Mcd Wal-Mart Lowes etc .

Wondering what percentage of min wage workers actually work in business' that employ less than 50 people (the cut off defined in ACA).
Never heard of a business that went bankrupt from minimum waged increase.

[jpx7]

The problem with incresed minimum wage is not on McDonalds cause they'll make it work. It's on the small businesses. If you double the minimum wage, all of the sudden you're putting a squeeze on businesses who operate month to month. Walmart and McDonalds will adjust. And scoop up the remaining pieces of the small businesses that went under

Maybe slide the wage-scale based on various criteria, such as number of employees? Or maybe tithe (wither by new taxes or the closure of old loopholes) the larger corporations to subsidize some of the new, higher minimum wages going to the three jar-jockeys at Aunt Gwendolyn's Olde Time Backyard Jam-Joint?

Neither might be perfect solutions, but there are ways to cushion small businesses were increases to wage-minimums mandated.

[zitothebrave]

A slight increase isn't a huge problem but the massive increase people want would lead to many places shutting down or firing a ton of people. I think minimum wage is ok where it's at now. Maybe bring it up to 8. But people shouldn't be trying to raise a family on a single minimum wage job

[sturg33]

I have a question for the board (not 57, as I don't want to rummage through Google).

I'm getting the sense that $15/hr is doable and wouldn't have many if any negative effects. OK.

But what about $30/hr? $60? How about $100/hr?

Why don't the minimum wage increase crowd want MORE than $15/hr? What is the reasoning to keep it at $15? Who are YOU to decide which minimum is minimum enough?? After all, I've been told in this thread that a guy who sells cars (someone who makes his employers hundreds of thousands or even millions of dollars a year) is no more valuable than someone who sweeps up the lobby (saving the company… $20 a year). So why not $50/hr?

This is a serious question.

[The Chosen One]

Because people want the wage to be increased to inflation and cost of living.

Nobody is saying raise it to be above that. Most of us do realize in fact that working a job like McDonalds isn't a high skilled job. That doesn't mean it shouldn't get treated fairly. Considering the fast food industry has struck gold since the recession, there's no reason to say that fast food workers shouldn't be given a raise since their industry has thrived in the last 5 years.

[sturg33]

Because people want the wage to be increased to inflation and cost of living.

Nobody is saying raise it to be above that. Most of us do realize in fact that working a job like McDonalds isn't a high skilled job. That doesn't mean it shouldn't get treated fairly. Considering the fast food industry has struck gold since the recession, there's no reason to say that fast food workers shouldn't be given a raise since their industry has thrived in the last 5 years.

What about industries that aren't fast food?

Also, you didn't answer my question… Why NOT $50/hour?

[Bj1133]

Plenty of jobs out there if you made the right decisions in your life.

Personal Accountability - we can't be having any of that around here now

[The Chosen One]

What about industries that aren't fast food?

Also, you didn't answer my question… Why NOT $50/hour?

Because we aren't interested in extrapolating to prove an absurd point, but more so we're interested in fairness.

You keep thinking we don't like capitalism. We just want to help make sure the people who are trying to earn an honest wage and living, are getting an honest wage.

[weso1]

You post how a woman with 2 kids and a full time job can live on $1200 a month then call me belligerent.
Gotcha
"but only if she ..."

////////////////////////

I've come up with a few questions for the raise the min wage folks (myself included):

1) If you raise min wage and increase it to the rate of inflation would that increase the likelihood of min wage jobs becoming more automated? Eventually it's just going to be cheaper to not hire min wage labor at all.
If you bothered to read any blog reporting on how Australia can do $15/hr minimum wage you would see the answer. Nothing really intellectually challenging. It is not an opinion but a reported fact.

2) Would raising min wage to 15 per hour take a lot of folks off food stamps? Wouldn't that cancel out the raise in the min wage making it somewhat of a moot point. And the one benefit I like about food stamps is that it has to be spent on food. Or would you increase the income max for food stamp participants?
Of course the standards for food stamps would change. That too is quantified on the Google page


3) Any concern that prices will increase in the very stores and restaurants that min wage earners visit the most?
I asked yesterday how much a Big Mac would cost post min wage increase. Never heard back from anyone.
Have you considered some of the people that gain from the raising of min wage would spend some of that money?But, my question to the price of a Big Mac speaks to how it really won't be noticable. Or at least any more noticable that McD's built in COLA raise it gives itself
To either question yours or mine -- who knows how much exactly.

Lol... how was that post I made belligerent? I thought it was fairly insightful at least relative to my usual posts. If you want to argue that someone shouldn't have to relocate, then that's fine... I disagree with it... sometimes it is necessary. Why wouldn't you want to move to an area that provided your kids with a safe place to live and a good school system? Most people need to relocate at some point.

1) Show me the blog that answers my question about future automation increases? Truth is nobody has the answer to this question, because nobody can predict the future. If they lose their jobs then min wage is irrelevant. This is a legit concern going forward. It just points that we should be careful.

2) That's fine, but I think there are legit concerns that increasing welfare maxes along with inflation could lead to some long term cost issues. This is something to consider. I mean eventually a lot of people are going to qualify for welfare that didn't before.

3) Not just Big Macs but everything that they shop for. But the truth is that the cost of a Big Mac likely won't increase at all. Instead this money will go toward cutting labor and/or research in future automation (see question number one)

I think you are being overly aggressive here, because of your conservative stereotypes and old man grumpiness (I get it). I'm not against increasing min wage along with the rate of inflation, since it exists. But I would argue that liberals should be against minimum wage. They should be for more enhanced government enforced welfare to replace minimum wage. Maybe instead of min wage, if you have a min wage job, Walmart provides you with more money in food stamps, a retirement plan, a college education plan, money specifically for housing, funds for childcare, money earmarked for utilities... etc. I think it would help solve future problems and assure the money is being spent wisely for household with children.

[CK86]

$15 an hour to flip a hamburger now? Amazing.

Do Democrats ever get tired of stealing other people's money?

[yeezus]

$15 an hour to flip a hamburger now? Amazing.

Do Democrats ever get tired of stealing other people's money?

I don't identify as R or D, but what the hell are you talking about?
People in the link are protesting for double their money. And not very many.
No in here in this thread to my knowledge, suggested doubling, the conversation has shifted to simply raising. The $15 and hour is in the title of the link only, not what we're talking about.
So, how is this construed by you as "democrats stealing other people's money."

[CK86]

I don't identify as R or D, but what the hell are you talking about?
People in the link are protesting for double their money. And not very many.
No in here in this thread to my knowledge, suggested doubling, the conversation has shifted to simply raising. The $15 and hour is in the title of the link only, not what we're talking about.
So, how is this construed by you as "democrats stealing other people's money."

Now we're onto talk of doubling the minimum wage which takes money out of the businesses pockets but will also increase the cost of everything. They always want to tax more, especially the rich. Now a budget deal that doesn't cut any spending but rather increases. A health insurance individual mandate requiring the purchase of health insurance. It's always more, more, more. A nickel here, a dime there, when does it stop?

I work my ass off and every week when I get my pay stub, it's like a third of my paycheck taken away by the government and for insurance. It sucks and it's only going to get worse. At some point, enough is enough. My question is will the Democrats ever reach that point?

This was a record year for tax revenue and there's STILL a nearly $800 billion deficit. They never stop spending, it's absurd.

[The Chosen One]

Now we're onto talk of doubling the minimum wage which takes money out of the businesses pockets but will also increase the cost of everything. They always want to tax more, especially the rich. Now a budget deal that doesn't cut any spending but rather increases. A health insurance individual mandate requiring the purchase of health insurance. It's always more, more, more. A nickel here, a dime there, when does it stop?

I work my ass off and every week when I get my pay stub, it's like a third of my paycheck taken away by the government and for insurance. It sucks and it's only going to get worse. At some point, enough is enough. My question is will the Democrats ever reach that point?

This was a record year for tax revenue and there's STILL a nearly $800 billion deficit. They never stop spending, it's absurd.

There would be no deficit had the Bush Tax Cuts entirely would've been allowed to expire.

We probably would have been in not only a budget surplus, but a government surplus as well had we never had the Bush Tax Cuts to begin with.

The reason why the deficit is no longer 1.6 trillion an it's 800 billion is because a portion of the Bush Tax Cuts were allowed to expire (on the rich).

[CK86]

http://dailycaller.com/2013/12/11/ryan-murray-budget-deal-hikes-air-travel-security-tax-by-124/

Homeland Security requests a $5 security fee. They get $5.60 security fee that goes to the Treasury instead. Soon we will have an actual tax for airline security on top of that tax. Book it.

[yeezus]

Now we're onto talk of doubling the minimum wage which takes money out of the businesses pockets but will also increase the cost of everything. They always want to tax more, especially the rich. Now a budget deal that doesn't cut any spending but rather increases. A health insurance individual mandate requiring the purchase of health insurance. It's always more, more, more. A nickel here, a dime there, when does it stop?

I work my ass off and every week when I get my pay stub, it's like a third of my paycheck taken away by the government and for insurance. It sucks and it's only going to get worse. At some point, enough is enough. My question is will the Democrats ever reach that point?

This was a record year for tax revenue and there's STILL a nearly $800 billion deficit. They never stop spending, it's absurd.

You're going off on a tangent. You didn't address my point even a little bit. Did you read what I said?

[The Chosen One]

You're telling this to liberals, who never cared or wanted the Department of Homeland Security to begin with (as it's an extension of the Defense budget which is as bloated enough already).

[CK86]

You're going off on a tangent. You didn't address my point even a little bit. Did you read what I said?

Yes, I read exactly what you said. My point which I guess was misunderstood is that it always starts out as a nickel here, a nickel there. Before long, there's a lot of nickels. At what point is enough enough?

[yeezus]

Yes, I read exactly what you said. My point which I guess was misunderstood is that it always starts out as a nickel here, a nickel there. Before long, there's a lot of nickels. At what point is enough enough?

I'm not sure why you responded to me then, because what democrat is calling for doubling of the min. wage besides the people in the link?
I was saying that your initial post I responded to basically made no sense.

[goldfly]

Then how are people living on it, or is everyone who makes min wage dying? :YDS:

we pay taxes and have food stamps etc etc etc

you know

the stuff you hate and we then help them live cause their company and their wages haven't kept up with inflation



it's weird how "republicans" have evolved (pun intended)

went from hating people with jobs to also holding contempt for people with jobs

[sturg33]

Still asking, what would the negative effects of $50/hr be? Does a burger flipper deserve it? If not, why?

What SHOULD the minimum wage be, right now?

How much EXACTLY, should rich folks pay?

I always here "the min wage should be more" or "the rich should pay more"... But I never actually hear the proposed number... What is it?

They never like to give a number, because then they won't be able to argue to increase it 6 months later

[weso1]

we pay taxes and have food stamps etc etc etc

you know

the stuff you hate and we then help them live cause their company and their wages haven't kept up with inflation



it's weird how "republicans" have evolved (pun intended)

went from hating people with jobs to also holding contempt for people with jobs


So I get that you're up on your high horse with your false assumptions about me and most conservatives, but I'm glad you agree with me that certain rhetoric itt is over the top.

[yeezus]

It's amazing to me that some people are totally ok with the gap between rich and poor in this country continuing to grow exponentially. When has that ever led to good things for a country as a whole?
The extremely wealthy are the ones screwing things up for all of us. I guess it's easier to blame and beat up on the poor, but your anger is directed in the wrong place.

[Krgrecw]

Yes because the extreme wealthy go into high schools and tell kids what they can and can't do with their lives, they tell kids to drop out and be low life's. I remember when the extreme wealthy came to my school and told us what 14-17 Year olds girls are supposed to get pregnant and drop out of school.


Curious? What ever stopped any of us in here from becoming a big CEO or a big player in Wall Street?
Did someone say we couldn't or did we just lack the work ethic and drive it took to get there?

[weso1]

It's amazing to me that some people are totally ok with the gap between rich and poor in this country continuing to grow exponentially. When has that ever led to good things for a country as a whole?
The extremely wealthy are the ones screwing things up for all of us. I guess it's easier to blame and beat up on the poor, but your anger is directed in the wrong place.

Who do you think is angry, itt?

[yeezus]

Yes because the extreme wealthy go into high schools and tell kids what they can and can't do with their lives, they tell kids to drop out and be low life's. I remember when the extreme wealthy came to my school and told us what 14-17 Year olds girls are supposed to get pregnant and drop out of school.


Curious? What ever stopped any of us in here from becoming a big CEO or a big player in Wall Street?
Did someone say we couldn't or did we just lack the work ethic and drive it took to get there?

Life conditions and disadvantages stop a lot of people from succeeding.
You cannot say that you'd be the person you are today if you grew up in extreme poverty. What if you were someone who received very little education and support? Are you confident you'd have become who you are today regardless? That's great if you are, but it's much easier to say it then to have to do it. My guess is A LOT of people, if raised in significantly worse circumstances and conditions, would suffer for life because of it.
There are many ways wealthy people screw things up for everyone, and it's kind of funny to see middle class people stick up for them. It makes it so much easier. They don't give two ****s about you, and would **** you over in a second to make their money grow taller (they do all the time). They have so many ways to avoid paying their share of taxes and widening the gap of wealth.

Is it really OK with you that the wealth gap keeps growing? It is not beneficial to middle-class people for this to happen. If the millionaires gave a **** about anyone else, life would be better for the middle-class and down. People ignore that fact that being born on 3rd base is a huge advantage, and that already having money makes it a whole lot easier to expand wealth. Being born at the plate with a tennis racket is a much more daunting task, and people need help in overcoming that. Otherwise, every person, except the wealthy, suffer, including middle-class.

We can sit here and blame the fact that our taxes are going or whatever on the poor people. That's convenient and easy. But the wealthy, who avoid taxes like the plague and screw over others cold-blooded are the ones making life harder on you.

[yeezus]

See what happens when the rich aren't greedy as all hell? (http://pegasus.ucf.edu/story/rosen/)
What stopped this guy from looking at the situation this community was in and saying "meh, work harder and you'll be fine"?
He had compassion and resources, so he improved the life of every member of that community, and has made a literally eternal impact on that place.
He also came from humble beginning and worked his way up. He could say "I did it, why can't you?"
But no, he says he was lucky! Not "I'm better and harder-working than these people" but lucky.
It's a shame more millionaires won't take this stance on things.

[yeezus]

"They were careless people ... they smashed up things and creatures and then retreated back into their money or their vast carelessness or whatever it was that kept them together, and let other people clean up the mess they had made..."

[sturg33]

It's amazing to me that some people are totally ok with the gap between rich and poor in this country continuing to grow exponentially. When has that ever led to good things for a country as a whole?
The extremely wealthy are the ones screwing things up for all of us. I guess it's easier to blame and beat up on the poor, but your anger is directed in the wrong place.

Why are the wealthy so wealthy?

[sturg33]

Life conditions and disadvantages stop a lot of people from succeeding.
You cannot say that you'd be the person you are today if you grew up in extreme poverty. What if you were someone who received very little education and support? Are you confident you'd have become who you are today regardless? That's great if you are, but it's much easier to say it then to have to do it. My guess is A LOT of people, if raised in significantly worse circumstances and conditions, would suffer for life because of it.
There are many ways wealthy people screw things up for everyone, and it's kind of funny to see middle class people stick up for them. It makes it so much easier. They don't give two ****s about you, and would **** you over in a second to make their money grow taller (they do all the time). They have so many ways to avoid paying their share of taxes and widening the gap of wealth.

Is it really OK with you that the wealth gap keeps growing? It is not beneficial to middle-class people for this to happen. If the millionaires gave a **** about anyone else, life would be better for the middle-class and down. People ignore that fact that being born on 3rd base is a huge advantage, and that already having money makes it a whole lot easier to expand wealth. Being born at the plate with a tennis racket is a much more daunting task, and people need help in overcoming that. Otherwise, every person, except the wealthy, suffer, including middle-class.

We can sit here and blame the fact that our taxes are going or whatever on the poor people. That's convenient and easy. But the wealthy, who avoid taxes like the plague and screw over others cold-blooded are the ones making life harder on you.

What % of taxes are paid by the wealthy, again?

[sturg33]

What has the democratic congress and democratic President done for the wealth distribution gap in this country? Other than expand it?

[sturg33]

Still asking, what would the negative effects of $50/hr be? Does a burger flipper deserve it? If not, why?

What SHOULD the minimum wage be, right now?

How much EXACTLY, should rich folks pay?

I always here "the min wage should be more" or "the rich should pay more"... But I never actually hear the proposed number... What is it?

They never like to give a number, because then they won't be able to argue to increase it 6 months later

I'm sure one of the liberals on here screaming about this (fist shakers, I believe is the term) has some sort of an answer to this.

[yeezus]

What % of taxes are paid by the wealthy, again?

This is such a dumb argument, and I'm not surprised it's you that's presenting it.
It's like saying "California has a larger percent of the total people in jail in America than Rhode Island does." Well yeah, there's a **** ton more people in California.
Why don't you discuss the percentage of total income the middle-class pays compared to the percentage wealthy pay? Wealthy people have far easier access to capital gains, which are taxed less heavily, therefore allowing them to pay a lower percent. They hide money to ensure it isn't taxed. This stuff isn't new.

It's hilarious to me that middle-class people defend the wealthy and their sometimes slimy practices for expanding their wealth. They would steal $100 from you the same way a bum would, but would do it in a "legal" way.

[yeezus]

What has the democratic congress and democratic President done for the wealth distribution gap in this country? Other than expand it?

Well, allowing the Bush tax cuts to expire was nice.
I'm not sure what your point is. No one is talking about democrats vs. republicans.

[goldfly]

the rich have it so rough

it is a shame they barely get by here

can't believe they have stayed here

[yeezus]

You're a freakin moron. Why shouldn't a burger flipper get $50? Because it's common sense, and no one is so stupid to suggest it. No, they don't deserve to be paid more than nurses who went to school, accountants, etc etc etc. What is the point of your continuous stupid freakin examples? All you're doing is making yourself look idiotic by bringing them in to play.
I think Ron would read your arguments and laugh at you.

[yeezus]

Now, if you want to raise their wage to $50 while increasing other low-income and middle-class wages to scale, I'd listen.

[sturg33]

This is such a dumb argument, and I'm not surprised it's you that's presenting it.
It's like saying "California has a larger percent of the total people in jail in America than Rhode Island does." Well yeah, there's a **** ton more people in California.
Why don't you discuss the percentage of total income the middle-class pays compared to the percentage wealthy pay? Wealthy people have far easier access to capital gains, which are taxed less heavily, therefore allowing them to pay a lower percent. They hide money to ensure it isn't taxed. This stuff isn't new.

It's hilarious to me that middle-class people defend the wealthy and their sometimes slimy practices for expanding their wealth. They would steal $100 from you the same way a bum would, but would do it in a "legal" way.

Sorry... I guess I wasn't clear. What % of taxes are paid by the wealthy?

And to your point about % of their total income, don't we tax rich people at a higher % on income tax?

Oh, I see. YOu want to raise capital gains tax too. What a surprise. MAKE THEM PAY MORE!!! Wahhhhhhh

[goldfly]

ftr

i believe wages from the top should come down some

wages from the bottom to come up to at least keep up with inflation

this would also put peoples taxes closer to each other and would be "less discrimination against the rich"

[sturg33]

You're a freakin moron. Why shouldn't a burger flipper get $50? Because it's common sense, and no one is so stupid to suggest it. No, they don't deserve to be paid more than nurses who went to school, accountants, etc etc etc. What is the point of your continuous stupid freakin examples? All you're doing is making yourself look idiotic by bringing them in to play.
I think Ron would read your arguments and laugh at you.

Who are you to say they don't deserve more than the nurse? 57 told me that the guy who sweeps the lobby is just as valuable as the guy who sells the cars.

You're missing the point of the question. It is a serious question anot not a gotcha question. I'm asking you what would be the negatives of paying a min wage worker $50 an hour?

[sturg33]

By the way yeezus, you're really kind of a dick.

[sturg33]

I look forward to the day when the minimum wage is increased and thousands of employees are fired. Progress!

[sturg33]

Just so my question is clear, can someone tell me, using economic logic, why a $50/hr minimum wage is a bad idea?

*Not looking for "dumb example" or "doesn't make sense"

Just a simple explanation on why $50 an hour would be a poor economic decision

[sturg33]

http://savetheovaries.files.wordpress.com/2013/11/charlie-day-off-to-job-land-where-jobs-grow-on-jobbies.jpg

I'll ask again... If it's already hard to find a job (it is), don't you think raising the min wage would make it harder?

[sturg33]

This is such a dumb argument, and I'm not surprised it's you that's presenting it.
It's like saying "California has a larger percent of the total people in jail in America than Rhode Island does." Well yeah, there's a **** ton more people in California.
Why don't you discuss the percentage of total income the middle-class pays compared to the percentage wealthy pay? Wealthy people have far easier access to capital gains, which are taxed less heavily, therefore allowing them to pay a lower percent. They hide money to ensure it isn't taxed. This stuff isn't new.

It's hilarious to me that middle-class people defend the wealthy and their sometimes slimy practices for expanding their wealth. They would steal $100 from you the same way a bum would, but would do it in a "legal" way.

By the way. The rich don't pay most of the taxes. They pay ALL of the taxes. If you want that to increase, you're simply asking for more tax revenue (surprise surpise). I guess our government spending just isn't enough for you.

[yeezus]

Who are you to say they don't deserve more than the nurse? 57 told me that the guy who sweeps the lobby is just as valuable as the guy who sells the cars.

You're missing the point of the question. It is a serious question anot not a gotcha question. I'm asking you what would be the negatives of paying a min wage worker $50 an hour?

I'm only a dick to those who severely lack common sense. Again, Ron would not like someone like you attached to his name.
No one is debating the fact that a burger flipper is an unskilled job. If your question was valid and had a point, it would be worth answering. Honestly, it's just stupid. The burger flipper would gross over 100K/year. Do you need me to explain why a skilled, scholastically trained person should earn more than a mcdonald's employee? Your silly example has no point, or not one that you've revealed. It's just stupid. That's it.

[yeezus]

I'll ask again... If it's already hard to find a job (it is), don't you think raising the min wage would make it harder?

Would you McDonald's close down because minimum wage was raised?
The company would still need its employees. It's not like it currently has a bunch of extra people employed just for fun. They work with basically the minimum needed as it is.

[yeezus]

I look forward to the day when the minimum wage is increased and thousands of employees are fired. Progress!

You look forward to things like that?
You're an asshat.

[yeezus]

By the way. The rich don't pay most of the taxes. They pay ALL of the taxes. If you want that to increase, you're simply asking for more tax revenue (surprise surpise). I guess our government spending just isn't enough for you.

Soooo they pay all the taxes? You don't pay any taxes? Or are you considered "rich" compared to those in poverty?
When millionaires are paying 15-20% of their income on taxes while middle-class people are paying 30%+, there's a problem.

[yeezus]

See what happens when the rich aren't greedy as all hell? (http://pegasus.ucf.edu/story/rosen/)
What stopped this guy from looking at the situation this community was in and saying "meh, work harder and you'll be fine"?
He had compassion and resources, so he improved the life of every member of that community, and has made a literally eternal impact on that place.
He also came from humble beginning and worked his way up. He could say "I did it, why can't you?"
But no, he says he was lucky! Not "I'm better and harder-working than these people" but lucky.
It's a shame more millionaires won't take this stance on things.

If more rich people would have the mindset Mr. Rosen had, a lot of problems could be fixed. Shame most of them just look for ways to put more money in their pockets, as if they need it the most.

[weso1]

I'm only a dick to those who severely lack common sense.

I always wondered why you were always so overly nice to me. This explains it.

[sturg33]

I'm only a dick to those who severely lack common sense. Again, Ron would not like someone like you attached to his name.
No one is debating the fact that a burger flipper is an unskilled job. If your question was valid and had a point, it would be worth answering. Honestly, it's just stupid. The burger flipper would gross over 100K/year. Do you need me to explain why a skilled, scholastically trained person should earn more than a mcdonald's employee? Your silly example has no point, or not one that you've revealed. It's just stupid. That's it.

I'll ask again… What are the negatives, using economic logic, to the minimum wage being $50/hr.

If you think it's a bad idea (it is), tell me why

[sturg33]

Would you McDonald's close down because minimum wage was raised?
The company would still need its employees. It's not like it currently has a bunch of extra people employed just for fun. They work with basically the minimum needed as it is.

No they wouldn't close. But I'm certain they wouldn't take the hit to their bottom line… Either the employees or the consumers would.

Now, the mom and pop stores? Yeah, they would close.

[sturg33]

You look forward to things like that?
You're an asshat.

You're an idiot. It's called sarcasm

[sturg33]

Soooo they pay all the taxes? You don't pay any taxes? Or are you considered "rich" compared to those in poverty?
When millionaires are paying 15-20% of their income on taxes while middle-class people are paying 30%+, there's a problem.

Yes, factually they do. I probably fall in the top 40% in this country.

You can deny the facts all you want, but they are there. On a net dollar basis, the top 40% pay more than 100% of all taxes. How high do you want that number to be? Seriously, give me a number. I bet you won't

[sturg33]

If more rich people would have the mindset Mr. Rosen had, a lot of problems could be fixed. Shame most of them just look for ways to put more money in their pockets, as if they need it the most.

"Rich people are the devil"

we get it. Let's ignore that they pay for all of the ridiculous stupid spending in this country that pays for all the social welfare. Let's ignore that they provide all of the jobs in this country. Let's ignore that they do all of the investing in this country. Let's ignore that they provide over 90% of charity donations in this country… They are the devil! You're right.

[goldfly]

Just so my question is clear, can someone tell me, using economic logic, why a $50/hr minimum wage is a bad idea?

*Not looking for "dumb example" or "doesn't make sense"

Just a simple explanation on why $50 an hour would be a poor economic decision

well, first that is way past inflation

Australia seems to be doing just fine with their 19 dollar minimum wage (which would be very close to what keeping up with inflation would be if done here)

when trying to talk about something and you use this as an example and mike trout in the other tread

it is laughable to take you serious on these topics

[sturg33]

You're still not answering. There are tons of people who make "way past inflation." My question is, what would the negatives of paying min wage workers $50/hr?

[weso1]

I would support a lower minimum wage for those who are less than 18. Thoughts on that?

[sturg33]

I would support a lower minimum wage for those who are less than 18. Thoughts on that?

Certainly better than raising it

[sturg33]

I'll ask again… What are the negatives, using economic logic, to the minimum wage being $50/hr.

If you think it's a bad idea (it is), tell me why

...

[Metaphysicist]

I'll ask again… What are the negatives, using economic logic, to the minimum wage being $50/hr.

If you think it's a bad idea (it is), tell me why

Jumping it that high all of a sudden would probably cause extreme inflation and seriously damage the economy. However, having it track inflation would likely not do this.


Yes, factually they do. I probably fall in the top 40% in this country.

You can deny the facts all you want, but they are there. On a net dollar basis, the top 40% pay more than 100% of all taxes.

"All taxes"? No they don't. Try and keep your zeal in your pants; you are getting overexcited.

[sturg33]

Jumping it that high all of a sudden would probably cause extreme inflation and seriously damage the economy. However, having it track inflation would likely not do this.



"All taxes"? No they don't. Try and keep your zeal in your pants; you are getting overexcited.


Thank you for finally answering... But you don't think there would be an employment problem too?

[Metaphysicist]

There would be some sort of adjustment period, I'm sure. But in the long term, no, I do not think having a minimum wage that tracks inflation would cause much of an unemployment problem.

[sturg33]

There would be some sort of adjustment period, I'm sure. But in the long term, no, I do not think having a minimum wage that tracks inflation would cause much of an unemployment problem.

I was referring to $50/hr

[goldfly]

There would be some sort of adjustment period, I'm sure. But in the long term, no, I do not think having a minimum wage that tracks inflation would cause much of an unemployment problem.


I was referring to $50/hr

haha

[sturg33]

I'm just waiting for someone to just step up and say $50/hr is bad idea because businesses would be unwilling to pay those wages.

But nobody seems to want admit such a simple fact.

[goldfly]

I'm just waiting for someone to just step up and say $50/hr is bad idea because businesses would be unwilling to pay those wages.

But nobody seems to want admit such a simple fact.

yeah

except everyone that said your scenario was stupid

[sturg33]

It's not a scenario... I'm legitamely asking if YOU know the negative impacts such a scenario would play. Do you?

[sturg33]

To be clear, I've asked an incredibly simple question probably 7 times now... Onlyy one half answer from Meta... but he was answering a different question

[goldfly]

I would support a lower minimum wage for those who are less than 18. Thoughts on that?

i might could get behind this

but i am sure there are some 16 and 17 year olds out there working to support their siblings etc

[goldfly]

It's not a scenario... I'm legitamely asking if YOU know the negative impacts such a scenario would play. Do you?

so

it isn't a scenario

but if you question was to happen and thus be a scenario, what are my thoughts?

not really sure how it isn't a scenario but it could have negative impacts in such a scenario but whatever

since we all think raising it to 50 bucks is dumb, i am not sure why you keep hammering away and acting like we came up with that number

[sturg33]

I'm asking you to explain why $50/hr is dumb.

I agree. But I want to know WHY that is a bad move.

[goldfly]

I'm asking you to explain why $50/hr is dumb.

I agree. But I want to know WHY that is a bad move.

you want me to explain to you, your scenario?

[goldfly]

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRyOtq3xV9FMrsGIlhTha4-nPxj9CNPqfgi_JPqRjky3hZ64sgv

[sturg33]

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRyOtq3xV9FMrsGIlhTha4-nPxj9CNPqfgi_JPqRjky3hZ64sgv

A few questions:

1. Which of those countries has the best economy?

2. Do you think this ratio is because of the federal reserve?

3. Do you think the banking system plays a role in this?

4. Do you think the fed's QE's play a role in this?

5. Do you think the federal government's insistence on corporate welfare plays a role in this?

[sturg33]

you want me to explain to you, your scenario?

I'm actually giving up on your because you're too stupid to understand basic economics. Clearly you don't understand.

[goldfly]

I'm actually giving up on your because you're too stupid to understand basic economics. Clearly you don't understand.

you're right

i don't understand why you want me to explain your bs scenario to you when it is has been agreed on to being a dumb idea

[sturg33]

you're right

i don't understand why you want me to explain your bs scenario to you when it is has been agreed on to being a dumb idea

LOL. I'm asking WHY it's a bad idea. I think it's hilarious you can't answer.

[goldfly]

LOL. I'm asking WHY it's a bad idea. I think it's hilarious you can't answer.

i don't care to actually answer a made up scenario of some road you for some reason want to go down

if i thought minimum wage should be $50 dollars

i would go down the road with ya

[sturg33]

The road I'm going down, if it's not obvious enough, is that raising the minimum wage, at some point, would have disastrous economic effects. Where is that point?

You guys think we'll be fine with rise of inflation. I disagree. Maybe you're right. Maybe I'm right. Considering that everyone agrees that there is a tipping point, we shouldn't just carelessly say "the guy who sweeps the foyer is just as valuable as the guy who sells the car"

[57Brave]

that is not what i said about the guy sweeping the floor.
I said if one deserves a "living wage" why not the other.

Never mentioned value - never meant value- rarely see things in terms of value.
Just not my style when discussing abstracts

please stop putting words in my mouth

[acesfull86]

Saying the minimum wage should be indexed to inflation is one thing, but that doesn't answer the question of just what the minimum wage should be in actual dollars. Which is where the question of "why not $50" comes from. There's always a trade off that has to be made, so where do you make it?

[weso1]

i might could get behind this

but i am sure there are some 16 and 17 year olds out there working to support their siblings etc

File for exceptions in these circumstances? I think this would be a good compromise. Australia does this by the way, which is where I got the idea.

[Metaphysicist]

I'm just waiting for someone to just step up and say $50/hr is bad idea because businesses would be unwilling to pay those wages.

Businesses that require human workers and don't want to break the law will pay those wages, even if they hate it. As I said, this will lead to massive inflation, since prices would have to skyrocket to compensate. I'm sure other businesses would seek other solutions to move away from needing actual people, likely spurring new innovations.

This isn't a relevant comparison to a living wage.

[Metaphysicist]

I'm asking you to explain why $50/hr is dumb.

I agree. But I want to know WHY that is a bad move.

Why don't you just make your own point instead of this faux-Socratic nonsense?

[Metaphysicist]

Saying the minimum wage should be indexed to inflation is one thing, but that doesn't answer the question of just what the minimum wage should be in actual dollars. Which is where the question of "why not $50" comes from. There's always a trade off that has to be made, so where do you make it?

Calculating the actual, most effective wage would be a job for real life economists, not pretend message board ones. There is surely be an efficiency bell curve that could be drawn up by including all the relevant effects, and then you set the wage at the peak. For all you moonbat libertarians, just image a Laffer curve, only using wage effectiveness instead of tax revenue effectiveness.

This has basically already been done in the sections of the country where living wages have already been implemented. As a fake message board economist, I'd say national rates should probably follow that research and be in the 9-12 range. But IANAE.

[goldfly]

https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc3/1484117_10152046573102908_1695748198_n.jpg

[kendiz]

Amazing that people with no skills can demand more compensation for their mindless work. Got to love the mindset of this country.

Mindless work? It is real work that you are disparaging. It's making sure the food gets cooked properly, it's making sure it's packaged properly, it's making sure the drive-thru runs smoothly, it's keeping things spotless, it's working the cash register, it's keeping orders straight, and many, many other things that you think are mindless. Let's see....if you go into McDonalds and are not served in a timely manner, or don't get your food cooked quickly and properly are you going to be happy? I bet not. If a person works 8 hours a day, standing most of the time, dealing with some nasty condescending customers, and doing their best....they deserve a living wage. And those of you who don't do any research...most fast food workers are not promoted or given yearly raises. The average age of a fast food worker is 29, and we subsidized many of those workers with food stamps and other assistance, while McDonalds get's tax breaks all over the place. We pay for those too...like we do with Walmart. We are PAYING, while corporations make billions of dollars in free money.
http://money.msn.com/now/post--mcdonalds-corporate-ladder-has-only-low-rungs

[weso1]

Mindless work? It is real work that you are disparaging. It's making sure the food gets cooked properly, it's making sure it's packaged properly, it's making sure the drive-thru runs smoothly, it's keeping things spotless, it's working the cash register, it's keeping orders straight, and many, many other things that you think are mindless. Let's see....if you go into McDonalds and are not served in a timely manner, or don't get your food cooked quickly and properly are you going to be happy? I bet not. If a person works 8 hours a day, standing most of the time, dealing with some nasty condescending customers, and doing their best....they deserve a living wage. And those of you who don't do any research...most fast food workers are not promoted or given yearly raises. The average age of a fast food worker is 29, and we subsidized many of those workers with food stamps and other assistance, while McDonalds get's tax breaks all over the place. We pay for those too...like we do with Walmart. We are PAYING, while corporations make billions of dollars in free money.
http://money.msn.com/now/post--mcdonalds-corporate-ladder-has-only-low-rungs

You're taking what thethe said too literally. All he and others are saying is that these are jobs in which workers can be replaced by virtually anyone in the workforce. They require no special skills. I don't really get why some aren't admitting this. It's ok to say that a job is a bottom of the rung job. You can't advance the conversation forward if you don't admit this, especially when some people on this board ignorantly accuse those they disagree with of hating minimum wage workers.

Is it not reasonable to just say... ok you are right that these are bottom of the rung jobs, but it's best for the country to raise minimum wage and here's why...

[Julio3000]

You're taking what thethe said too literally. All he and others are saying is that these are jobs in which workers can be replaced by virtually anyone in the workforce. They require no special skills. I don't really get why some aren't admitting this. It's ok to say that a job is a bottom of the rung job. You can't advance the conversation forward if you don't admit this, especially when some people on this board ignorantly accuse those they disagree with of hating minimum wage workers.

Is it not reasonable to just say... ok you are right that these are bottom of the rung jobs, but it's best for the country to raise minimum wage and here's why...

Respectfully, Weso, that is NOT all he and the others are saying.

[kendiz]

You're taking what thethe said too literally. All he and others are saying is that these are jobs in which workers can be replaced by virtually anyone in the workforce. They require no special skills. I don't really get why some aren't admitting this. It's ok to say that a job is a bottom of the rung job. You can't advance the conversation forward if you don't admit this, especially when some people on this board ignorantly accuse those they disagree with of hating minimum wage workers.

Is it not reasonable to just say... ok you are right that these are bottom of the rung jobs, but it's best for the country to raise minimum wage and here's why...

We have to take it literally, because that's what people think all over the country. People have to face reality sooner or later, we need so called unskilled workers to make the world go around. But...if you work in a minimum wage job, the chances of upward movement depends on if you can go to college, if you don't have kids, and if you have parents that will help you....and yes, if you're not brown. All the people who can't afford college, who have kids, and don't have help are stuck in these jobs. There aren't enough good paying jobs to go around, and every corporation knows this and has acted accordingly to take advantage. I talked to a woman working at Target one night. She put in 36 hours that week after Black Friday, and that is not her full time job. She has three school age children, is a single mother, and has rotten teeth. She worked 76 hours a week, and she said she did it to give her children what they needed. That's what we are asking of our citizens, all the while giving tax break after tax break to folks who don't need it. They couldn't spend all that money in 10 lifetimes, but it's okay just because we admire them, envy them, wish we were them????? I have no idea. The wealthy are not special, and there will come a time when people will realize what they are doing to this Earth in the name of profit.

[Krgrecw]

So Kendiz how much of this women's predicament is her fault? Is the babies daddy in the picture? Is she getting child support? Does she live comfortably or is she driving a nice big SUV and living above her means? Did she choose to have a kid young? Why did she not opp to go to college? Did someone forbid her from getting a college degree?

[weso1]

Respectfully, Weso, that is NOT all he and the others are saying.

Some of you are being way too oversensitive. Wish we could have a debate on this without these potentially misguided assumptions of what those you disagree with feel about others. But hey... looks like it won't stop so continue.

[Julio3000]

Why wasn't she smart enough to get a full scholarship to college? Why didn't she choose to go to a school that adequately prepared her for getting into college? Why didn't she choose to have parents who went the extra mile to look after her best interests? Why wasn't she smart enough to realize that she isn't allowed to make a mistake?

[weso1]

We have to take it literally, because that's what people think all over the country.

No, that's what you assume people think all over the country. You have no idea what people think about other people. I happen to believe that most right leaning folk have a lot of respect for single moms who work hard to support their kids. Doesn't mean though that one has to support min wage or a min wage increase. The contempt are for those who are lazy and take advantage of the system.

Another thing... Pubs don't dislike welfare, they dislike excessive welfare.

[Julio3000]

No, that's what you assume people think all over the country. You have no idea what people think about other people. I happen to believe that most right leaning folk have a lot of respect for single moms who work hard to support their kids. Doesn't mean though that one has to support min wage or a min wage increase. The contempt are for those who are lazy and take advantage of the system.

Another thing... Pubs don't dislike welfare, they dislike excessive welfare.

This is an interesting question. It seems like whenever this topic or one like it arises—which is often, recently—there are a few posters who do almost nothing but denigrate poor people and the choices they supposedly made or didn't make.

Can I ask y'all to do something? Even if your pet hobbyhorse issue is all of the public monies that we're supposedly throwing at layabouts, can you at least try to consider all people as being worthwhile and invested with humanity and dignity equal to your own? When you're talking about minimum wage workers, will you at least consider that they are WORKING? Shouldn't all work have dignity? If you hate welfare and fetishize work, why aren't you congratulating these folks for strapping up and punching the clock every day?

When you say, for example, "Do something better with your life than working the cashier at Wendy's," don't you think that is more than a little bit condescending or insensitive?

[sturg33]

I'm personally against the minimum wage law because I think it undermines personal liberty.

If a person is willing to work for a company for $5/hr, and the company agrees to pay that, then he should be allowed too. Instead, the federal government says "no, you two adults can't make that agreement." And thus, the person who is willing to work can not be afforded for what he is going to bring to the company.

I think if you eliminate the min wage, the workers would actually be compensated for what they are valued at. Now, a cashier is "valued" at minimum wage, and thus is being paid as such. If you eliminate that, the worker has a lot more leverage.

Just my $0.02. I'll respond to others when I have more time. On the road this weekend.

[Julio3000]

I'm personally against the minimum wage law because I think it undermines personal liberty.

If a person is willing to work for a company for $5/hr, and the company agrees to pay that, then he should be allowed too. Instead, the federal government says "no, you two adults can't make that agreement." And thus, the person who is willing to work can not be afforded for what he is going to bring to the company.

I think if you eliminate the min wage, the workers would actually be compensated for what they are valued at. Now, a cashier is "valued" at minimum wage, and thus is being paid as such. If you eliminate that, the worker has a lot more leverage.

Just my $0.02. I'll respond to others when I have more time. On the road this weekend.

Wha?

[weso1]

This is an interesting question. It seems like whenever this topic or one like it arises—which is often, recently—there are a few posters who do almost nothing but denigrate poor people and the choices they supposedly made or didn't make.

Can I ask y'all to do something? Even if your pet hobbyhorse issue is all of the public monies that we're supposedly throwing at layabouts, can you at least try to consider all people as being worthwhile and invested with humanity and dignity equal to your own? When you're talking about minimum wage workers, will you at least consider that they are WORKING? Shouldn't all work have dignity? If you hate welfare and fetishize work, why aren't you congratulating these folks for strapping up and punching the clock every day?

When you say, for example, "Do something better with your life than working the cashier at Wendy's," don't you think that is more than a little bit condescending or insensitive?

I don't really see it as an insult at all. Again... really oversensitive here. I mean look at it like this... If you have a kid and your kid comes up to you and says "I want to work at McDonald's for the rest of my life", you sure aren't doing your kid a favor by saying, "That's great, you will be a worker and worthwhile." No, if you are a good parent then you will probably try to steer your child away from that decision. Is that condescending or insensitive to those who have to work those jobs?

The fact is that you can't assume what other people feel. If you try to then you're no better than those you are grumping about. Isn't that what you think they are doing anyway? Assuming something about someone that may not be true?

[Julio3000]

One's value is not measured by one's profession. Who we are as people has nothing to do with whether or not we have to wear a nametag at work.

So is work worthwhile? Do you respect peoples' choice to seek work, even if it's menial? Isn't that the thrust of so many of the threads in this forum? If not, I think we've set up a horrible dynamic, where only the affluent are truly valued . . . not as contributors to the GDP, but as people.

Look, I understand what you're saying about assumptions, and I just don't agree with it. I am fairly certain that value judgements are routinely made in these threads—mostly about the poor and the unemployed. I think it's just as likely that you are being deliberately obtuse as it is that I'm inferring them without reason.

[goldfly]

This is an interesting question. It seems like whenever this topic or one like it arises—which is often, recently—there are a few posters who do almost nothing but denigrate poor people and the choices they supposedly made or didn't make.

Can I ask y'all to do something? Even if your pet hobbyhorse issue is all of the public monies that we're supposedly throwing at layabouts, can you at least try to consider all people as being worthwhile and invested with humanity and dignity equal to your own? When you're talking about minimum wage workers, will you at least consider that they are WORKING? Shouldn't all work have dignity? If you hate welfare and fetishize work, why aren't you congratulating these folks for strapping up and punching the clock every day?

When you say, for example, "Do something better with your life than working the cashier at Wendy's," don't you think that is more than a little bit condescending or insensitive?

no doubt

said it was an interesting evolution

went from hating people that don't work to now hating on people actually working

[weso1]

One's value is not measured by one's profession. Who we are as people has nothing to do with whether or not we have to wear a nametag at work.

So is work worthwhile? Do you respect peoples' choice to seek work, even if it's menial? Isn't that the thrust of so many of the threads in this forum? If not, I think we've set up a horrible dynamic, where only the affluent are truly valued . . . not as contributors to the GDP, but as people.




Who is even arguing against that though? I'm not even sure who you are debating with and grumping about here. Clearly there are different values of human labor in a financial sense. We're arguing an economic issue here, which is why it's being brought up. That's all the argument is about, not the worth of a person outside of their worth to their employer.

Honestly, it's impossible to have an honest debate with someone when they come up with these ignorant assumptions and refuse to admit that they could be wrong. But you guys have to be on your high horse all the time.

[goldfly]

But you guys have to be on your high horse all the time.

i have to be on a high horse

i am tall

it isn't like i could be on a miniature horse

[weso1]

no doubt

said it was an interesting evolution

went from hating people that don't work to now hating on people actually working

crumpfly6 in one thread complains that we don't work together anymore

crumpfly6 in another thread insults those he disagrees with based on ignorant and biased assumptions.

[weso1]

I think I've said all I can say itt, so I'll get out of here before it escalates to a further personal level.

I'll just say that I wish folks on this board wouldn't assume that we hate poor people because of what they do for a living. Now if you'll excuse me, I have to stuff socks down my toilets and flush them so that my maid has something to do tomorrow.

[The Chosen One]

AA you can come out of hiding. I see you're lurking.

:cooter:

[jpx7]

I happen to believe that most right leaning folk have a lot of respect for single moms who work hard to support their kids. Doesn't mean though that one has to support min wage or a min wage increase.

These things are effectively mutually exclusive. Thus, in my opinion, they do not respect "single moms who work hard to support their kids"; they are lying—either to themselves, perhaps because it's easier than admitting they feel this way about other human beings, or to others, likely to avoid being outed for feeling this way about other human beings.


Another thing... Pubs don't dislike welfare, they dislike excessive welfare.

More delusions of self or others.

[jpx7]

Just my $0.02.

Which is about how much corporations will value "unskilled" workers if institutional checks are removed.

I'll take a page from your book: History has concluded this.

[jpx7]

Again... really oversensitive here.

Now here you are, assuming our sensitivities are in excess of what is appropriate.

OH NO.

[weso1]

Now here you are, assuming our sensitivities are in excess of what is appropriate.

OH NO.

YOU GOT ME! ZOMG!!!!!!!!!!!!! GOOD ONE!

[weso1]

I can't do this board anymore... It's like 4 against 1 with little substance. Too much gotch ya internet posts. The board is making me angry.

See you guys in a week or so I'm guessing.

[The Chosen One]

I can't do this board anymore... It's like 4 against 1 with little substance. Too much gotch ya internet posts. The board is making me angry.

See you guys in a week or so I'm guessing.

:YDS:

[jpx7]

GOOD ONE!

http://www.hbshows.com/tomjerry/images/80-41_take_a_bow0.gif

[Metaphysicist]

I can't do this board anymore... It's like 4 against 1 with little substance. Too much gotch ya internet posts. The board is making me angry.

See you guys in a week or so I'm guessing.

It's not really 4 against 1. It's just that everyone else on your side is a sturg or aces whose superficial opinions can't really hold upon examination. And then you end up having to defend against the reaction to their garbage. I can understand how that must be frustrating.

[BedellBrave]

I feel your pain weso. I have to stay away for spells myself. It gets old.

[goldfly]

crumpfly6 in one thread complains that we don't work together anymore

crumpfly6 in another thread insults those he disagrees with based on ignorant and biased assumptions.

we don't work together

if you think that is an insult, then you need to grow up

[sturg33]

we don't work together

if you think that is an insult, then you need to grow up

...point missed

[sturg33]

Wha?

Companies like Walmart value cashiers as minimum wage workers. Doesn't matter if the minimum wage is $2, $7.25, or $15... they will always view them as minimum wage.

If you eliminate minimum wage, now only are you allowing more freedom in this country (something I always think is good), but you force companies to pay each employee on how much they actually value their position.

[sturg33]

I do find it hilarious that folks accuse pubs and libertarians of hating poor people, all the while they are openly stating how much they hate rich people.

[sturg33]

I respect anyone who is willing to work for their money. That includes a bottom of the rung job from a single mother who needs every penny.

That doesn't mean I think companies or governments should be a charity foundation for these people.

[goldfly]

...point missed

no

it wasn't

[acesfull86]

My opinion that a minimum wage is harmful to the people it intends to help is BECAUSE I care about these people, not because I don't respect them or hold them in contempt. So I could just as easily accuse you lefties of the same thing, especially when there has been research done suggesting these laws will negatively affect those most vulnerable in the labor market.

And my "superficial opinions" on this topic are based on my own academic background in labor economics plus the decades worth of research others have done on this subject. I guess anything that doesn't fit your worldview = superficial when you're an internet pseudointellectual.

And I'm willing to admit that the research done on this topic is still unsettled (which is why it should be a debate, not my side is right and yih just hate the poor)...something 57 apparently disagrees with because in his reality, he has made up his mind that his side is right and they have the "proof." The height of ignorance coming from someone who loves to lob that accusation at anyone who doesn't agree with his narrow worldview.

Weso is right ..this board is short on honest debate and long on trolling, memes, one liner gotchas, and unfounded assumptions. I guess if you can't beat em, join em. But it's really no longer worth it.

[BedellBrave]

Well put ace.

[57Brave]

Show me where I've said anyone hates anyone?
Perhaps you feel that way because I show stats and circumstances that put your side of the discussion in a bad light? I will leave you and have left you to draw your own implications.

Good luck and read information counter to your ingrained prejudices.

[57Brave]

I respect anyone who is willing to work for their money. That includes a bottom of the rung job from a single mother who needs every penny.

That doesn't mean I think companies or governments should be a charity foundation for these people.

http://s3.amazonaws.com/dk-production/images/61809/large/productivity_wages.png?1387213483

[AerchAngel]

AA you can come out of hiding. I see you're lurking.

:cooter:

nope.

I will look but not post and I see other people are getting tired of it as well.

[zitothebrave]

Quit being a baby AA and post. Message boards aren't fun if everyone acts like children in discussions.

[Julio3000]

My opinion that a minimum wage is harmful to the people it intends to help is BECAUSE I care about these people, not because I don't respect them or hold them in contempt. So I could just as easily accuse you lefties of the same thing, especially when there has been research done suggesting these laws will negatively affect those most vulnerable in the labor market.

And my "superficial opinions" on this topic are based on my own academic background in labor economics plus the decades worth of research others have done on this subject. I guess anything that doesn't fit your worldview = superficial when you're an internet pseudointellectual.

And I'm willing to admit that the research done on this topic is still unsettled (which is why it should be a debate, not my side is right and yih just hate the poor)...something 57 apparently disagrees with because in his reality, he has made up his mind that his side is right and they have the "proof." The height of ignorance coming from someone who loves to lob that accusation at anyone who doesn't agree with his narrow worldview.

Weso is right ..this board is short on honest debate and long on trolling, memes, one liner gotchas, and unfounded assumptions. I guess if you can't beat em, join em. But it's really no longer worth it.

I appreciate what you're saying, and I would welcome debate about the issues rather than the pretense that one's set of opinions about economics are actually immutable laws of the universe.

I didn't intend to sidetrack the discussion (such as it was) into a pissing match about who hates whom. I do think that the use of language that cavalierly devalues or even dehumanizes a subset of people is common during these—now very frequent—discussions of income inequality, taxes/spending, etc. I also think that it is a legitimate ancillary issue, but I'm not attempting to raise it in lieu of discussing the topic.

[The Chosen One]

nope.

I will look but not post and I see other people are getting tired of it as well.

I don't know if you're still mad at me because I liked that Lord of the Rings .gif that bdawg posted, if you are, I think it was silly to be upset at me to begin with.

Don't know why you're on some protest. Just because I'm the Site Owner, that means I can't laugh at someone's post? Because I "liked" it, that automatically means I endorse it and can't laugh at it at face value? I try to be as neutral and fair on the main board as anyone (maybe not here in this politics forum because we all have real life personal views that conflict), but I'm not immune to funny stuff on the internet.

[jpx7]

Weso is right ..this board is short on honest debate and long on trolling, memes, one liner gotchas, and unfounded assumptions. I guess if you can't beat em, join em. But it's really no longer worth it.

He might be right, but it hardly comes exclusively from one "side" of these discussions, as he seems to imply.

[weso1]

That wasn't my implication, JPX.

Honestly, I do this at least once a year. It's my serenity now moment. I leave the board and come back in about a week or so. I like everyone on here, so it's nothing personal. I usually don't mind the kind of stuff I'm complaining about either, but about once every year or so I think I just need a break. It's more about me then anyone on here.

[jpx7]

That wasn't my implication, JPX.

Fair enough, and then some.

[The Chosen One]

SPeaking of fast food, I stayed away from it for about 3-4 months but tonight I couldn't resist after seeing this thread all week.

Went to Checkers and got myself 2 American Double Melts, hold onions with their 2 for $4 special.

Highly suggest it to anyone out there. It's glorious. :Drool:

EDIT: Oh and make sure when you get it the bread is toasted and not soggy. If it's soggy it's gross but the bread being firmly toasted is what makes it a winner. Texture.

[The Chosen One]

That wasn't my implication, JPX.

Honestly, I do this at least once a year. It's my serenity now moment. I leave the board and come back in about a week or so. I like everyone on here, so it's nothing personal. I usually don't mind the kind of stuff I'm complaining about either, but about once every year or so I think I just need a break. It's more about me then anyone on here.

When you say you're leaving, does this mean your'e going outside the internet? How is that possible? I've only been to the edge, not the outside.

[Julio3000]

When you say you're leaving, does this mean your'e going outside the internet? How is that possible? I've only been to the edge, not the outside.

I hear that it's hollow, goes on forever, and is full of stars.

[57Brave]

Starting to get defining numbers - battle lines / bargaining points being drawn:
------------------------------------
http://ourfuture.org/20131218/auto-draft-14

The fight over raising the minimum wage will be one of the defining battles for the 2014 elections. As the floor – the minimum wage – falls out from under Americans, big majorities of voters in both parties want the minimum wage raised. President Obama and congressional Democrats support an increase to $10.10, indexed to inflation. Republicans and plutocrats want to obstruct this.
///////////////////

My guess is $9.00 - 9.75 per hour is the settling point

[yeezus]

I can't justify eating any fast food other than chick-fil-a. Their spicy chicken with chick-fil-a sauce is wayyyy too good, and no other fast food compares. So, if I'm going to waste a day of good eating, I go there. No one else is worth it in comparison.

[FreemanFan]

It will never happen, but I would be fine with eliminating the minimum wage. Let the market decide wages. Anyone with a job is worth only what he or she is paid. If they were worth more, they would get it elsewhere. People who work at McDonald's for $8 an hour agree that's what they are worth or they would get more at another job.

[Julio3000]

It will never happen, but I would be fine with eliminating the minimum wage. Let the market decide wages. Anyone with a job is worth only what he or she is paid. If they were worth more, they would get it elsewhere. People who work at McDonald's for $8 an hour agree that's what they are worth or they would get more at another job.

What positive outcomes would you expect to see?

[The Chosen One]

What positive outcomes would you expect to see?

The collapse of the market because of greed and people getting stiffed at $3 an hour.