Another School Shooting

[57Brave]

Really not much else i can say.
Typed my fingers raw last year at this time and now just sitting here shaking my head in disbelief

[sturg33]

Sad… Yet another gun free zone allows murders to have free reign on innocent victims.

[jpx7]

Sad… Yet another gun free zone allows murders to have free reign on innocent victims.

...

[BedellBrave]

Why are you shaking your head in disbelief 57?

[goldfly]

i am shocked it happened

we have done soo much to try to change this from happening in the past year

i can't believe it happened again

[BedellBrave]

Shocked? Odd. Do you think that we'll be able to ban disgruntled and deranged students? Think we will get rid of all weapons? Have cops monitoring every door? Metal detectors at every entryway of every school across this huge country? Do you really think in a narcissistic and violent culture such as ours that we will be able to prevent such acts with some new piece of legislation, some political rhetoric, some magic wand?

You guys think you can affect complete outward change by merely outward means?

[57Brave]

no Bedell, just don't think those people you describe should have such easy access to weapons.
That of all the things = can be done and will affect change/
How bout look at it like this! We've tried doing nothing and it obviously hasn't worked = how bout we try something else?
To much to ask?

Would you vote to leave firearm regulation as it is?

[Tapate50]

What kind of weapon? Where did he get it? Why do only US kids want to shoot their teachers and class mates?

[weso1]

no Bedell, just don't think those people you describe should have such easy access to weapons.
That of all the things = can be done and will affect change/
How bout look at it like this! We've tried doing nothing and it obviously hasn't worked = how bout we try something else?
To much to ask?

Would you vote to leave firearm regulation as it is?

Well, why don't you try something else also? Rather than going after guns maybe you should start a rally to put a couple of cops in every school in America. I would think that would go a long way to solve the problem. The cost would probably be similar to new gun control costs. If the issue really bothers you then I would think you'd try every avenue to solve it rather than just one that continuously fails. It goes both ways you know.

[BedellBrave]

He used a shotgun, Biden's weapon of choice. How in the world are you going to outlaw shotguns - particularly in the West? I mean I guess you could. But do you actually think that is going to stop every and all cases like this??

And you are wrong 57, we haven't tried doing nothing. We've done plenty of things. I'm sure the school was a gun free zone. There are gun regulations in place. The cops reacted differently this time (in comparison to Columbine). And I don't doubt that the schools have changed their policies in trying to seek greater protection.

[goldfly]

Shocked? Odd. Do you think that we'll be able to ban disgruntled and deranged students? Think we will get rid of all weapons? Have cops monitoring every door? Metal detectors at every entryway of every school across this huge country? Do you really think in a narcissistic and violent culture such as ours that we will be able to prevent such acts with some new piece of legislation, some political rhetoric, some magic wand?

You guys think you can affect complete outward change by merely outward means?

we should do nothing obviously

it seems to be working out just fine

[BedellBrave]

Non sequitor, but nice try.

[goldfly]

He used a shotgun, Biden's weapon of choice. How in the world are you going to outlaw shotguns - particularly in the West? I mean I guess you could. But do you actually think that is going to stop every and all cases like this??

And you are wrong 57, we haven't tried doing nothing. We've done plenty of things. I'm sure the school was a gun free zone. There are gun regulations in place. The cops reacted differently this time (in comparison to Columbine). And I don't doubt that the schools have changed their policies in trying to seek greater protection.

oh we tried those things and they didn't work

i guess we should stop trying then

i am open to keep evolving to the situation and keep trying new things

instead of just saying "how can we stop this?"

[BedellBrave]

If by "didn't work" you mean didn't stop every murder using a gun, then yes, they "didn't work." Course that's a naive standard.

Whatcha want to try gold?

Banning shotguns?

Violent video games?

Violent movies?

Violent song lyrics?

Psychotropic drugs?

Works real good in the drug war doesn't it? And during Prohibition. Making stuff illegal and all.

Visit the homes of all disgruntle students and remove the guns and knives?

Put multiple cops in every school (you ought to like that since you think as highly as you do of cops)?

Metal detectors in every entryway in every school?

Bullet proof walls, doors, and windows in all new construction?

How about giving all the kiddos "A"s and nice trophies?

What do you want to try?

[weso1]

If by "didn't work" you mean didn't stop every murder using a gun, then yes, they "didn't work." Course that's a naive standard.

Whatcha want to try gold?

Banning shotguns?

Violent video games?

Violent movies?

Violent song lyrics?

Psychotropic drugs?

Works real good in the drug war doesn't it? And during Prohibition. Making stuff illegal and all.

Visit the homes of all disgruntle students and remove the guns and knives?

How about giving all the kiddos "A"s and nice trophies?

What do you want to try?

A couple of cops in every school would probably have a significant impact. Why not do something like this that could actually solve the problem and get done.

[goldfly]

If by "didn't work" you mean didn't stop every murder using a gun, then yes, they "didn't work." Course that's a naive standard.

Whatcha want to try gold?

Banning shotguns?

Violent video games?

Violent movies?

Violent song lyrics?

Psychotropic drugs?

Works real good in the drug war doesn't it? And during Prohibition. Making stuff illegal and all.

Visit the homes of all disgruntle students and remove the guns and knives?

How about giving all the kiddos "A"s and nice trophies?

What do you want to try?

i am not exactly sure what i want to try

i know the status quo isn't good enough

and people saying "well we tried this or that and it didn't work" just isn't good enough for me.

off topic: when in this country did we start giving up on difficult things? when we canceled the Apollo missions?

[BedellBrave]

A couple of cops in every school would probably have a significant impact. Why not do something like this that could actually solve the problem and get done.

Weso, I'm actually not against that idea.

[BedellBrave]

i am not exactly sure what i want to try

i know the status quo isn't good enough

and people saying "well we tried this or that and it didn't work" just isn't good enough for me.

off topic: when in this country did we start giving up on difficult things? when we canceled the Apollo missions?

I want to know what you want to try. I actually don't think some of those ideas are nutty (at least in their totality). But what I don't think is possible is that we will eliminate every incident like this. Again, I think that's naive to think that we can. gold, we live in a fallen, sinful world.

I also think that it will take "heart" work - work done through loving neighbors, family members, ministers, counselors, etc. Government can have a role, but it can't do and shouldn't do everything.

I am intrigued though by how many liberals approach this issue. They seldom seem to care for any talk about the regulation of the entertainment culture that is a part of this mix. Rather they fixate on guns.

I also am intrigued by libertarian leaning guys like yourself, pushing for more governmental involvement in issues. I know you aren't a strict libertarian. It's still fascinating though.

[BedellBrave]

Here are some of my suggestions:

1. Must be 21 to purchase firearms or have a parental co-sign.
2. Okay with background checks (unlike some) - and with flagging those who are prescribed psychotropic drugs.
3. Seek to employ security guard(s) for schools (see 7 and 9 below).
4. Adopt lockdown policies like this school did.
5. Prayer
6. Churches, counseling centers, youth programs active in the lives of more and more young people.
7. More stringent regulations of the video, music and movie industry. If you produce violent, vulgar, products you pay a sin tax that's then funneled into programs used for the protection of students and with the victims of violent, predatory, or sexual abuse crimes.
8. Growing societal disgust for gratuitous violence and sexual abuse highlighted in the entertainment industry - disgust across the political spectrum that would be expressed publicly.
9. Maybe a progressive sales tax rate on weapons. The more dangerous/lethal the weapon, the higher the tax rate.

[Hawk]

Prayer is the only thing that has a real chance of working, sadly.

[goldfly]

I have given it some thought but will come up with a short list for ya but i am open to radical ideas on the topic as well (ie the 2nd amendment is outdated type idea)

been a very long day and the next couple are going to be real busy as well

and if prayer is a part or big part of the plan then we might as well do nothing at all.

cause in that context, prayer will do nothing for it since it is from free will for someone to pick up a gun and kill someone.

if you want to go that type of biblical text

[Hawk]

It's not just about guns though -- it's an entire culture of violence. The state of nature in its current form is inherently destructive. It doesn't feel to me like that is something you can just expunge without Goebbels like desensitization. Regulations are speed bumps to an ultimate eund. People will figure out a way to inflict pain -- and that goes well above anything I am able to comprehend. That's not to say we shouldn't try to 'fix' this ... epidemic, however I think the more prudent route is simply accepting the realities of the modern world and learning how to guard, cope, survive.

[57Brave]

There have been 34 school shootings since Newtown.
Thirty Four
I suppose after every one there were group prayers - plus solitary prayer for both victims and the perpetrators
And two weeks after every shooting - there was another shooting.

Granted, we live in a violent culture - Granted there is mental illness, though conveniently ignored legislatively by those that argue against weapon regulation and lay this epidemic at the feet of mental illness.
All of those components have been talked to death but there IS one constant in all of these shootings.
Easy access to weapons and ammunition
We can fix that with a stroke of a pen. the others -- I agree will take time
Time seems to be running out though -- doesn't it?
//////////

34 school shootings.
34

[57Brave]

Suppose we quit denying our problems and spend a little more time looking at the the past 20 year model of Australia


https://scontent-a-iad.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/1522018_10151871146361275_1184907830_n.jpg

[BedellBrave]

Hello! Is anyone at home? This was a shotgun. A shotgun. I give you concrete steps, and you come back again, fixated again, on banning assault weapons. Fine ban assault weapons. That would have made no impact on this. Come right out and say, ban all weapons and ammunition.

And once again you basically dismiss everything else. What ever changes with you 57?

And mock prayer all you'd like...

[57Brave]

I said weapons.
In my view, any firearm that kills an innocent is a weapon

Never said ban anything

And didn't mock prayer.

Didn't dismiss any of your "concrete steps". Thought a number of them were spot on
.

////
Excuse me - in Australia they banned assault weapons and I suggested we use Australia as a model where, they pro-actively addressed the problem

[BedellBrave]

So how do you actually address this sort of case? In a way other than I am suggesting?

[BedellBrave]

Oh, despite Australia's efforts, they haven't been able to totally keep guns out of their schools. See this incident (http://www.news.com.au/national/shot-fired-from-gun-at-school/story-e6frfkx9-1226352678281). And there was the Monash University shooting. And bombs at another school. Also, please remember they have less than 10,000 schools and the U.S. has around 100,000.

[57Brave]

Address the problem pro-actively rather the around the elbow to get to your ass approach of thinking prayer and counseling will solve the problem Until we deal with those that made money from selling the Colorado shooter the shotgun and the shells we will continue down the same road.

In a nut shell - the political courage to stand up to the gun lobby and weapon profiteers.
the public courage to vote for people that will stand up

[57Brave]

Oh, despite Australia's efforts, they haven't been able to totally keep guns out of their schools. See this incident (http://www.news.com.au/national/shot-fired-from-gun-at-school/story-e6frfkx9-1226352678281). And there was the Monash University shooting. And bombs at another school. Also, please remember they have less than 10,000 schools and the U.S. has around 100,000.

Letting the perfect be the enemy of the good - is a huge part of the problem - in my view.
Actually seems to be a common thread through so many of our political / social discussions. ACA is lousy because it isn't Medicare for all. Would be another example

[zitothebrave]

The American issue with guns goes much deeper than people having access to them. Our culture breeds these maniacs. The fear, the consumerism, etc. make people do things they wouldn't do otherwise. Canada doesn't have a shooting provlem on the level of the US but they don't ban guns.

[zitothebrave]

Letting the perfect be the enemy of the good - is a huge part of the problem - in my view.
Actually seems to be a common thread through so many of our political / social discussions. ACA is lousy because it isn't Medicare for all. Would be another example

Thats a perfectly good reason ACA is lousy.

[goldfly]

And mock prayer all you'd like...

my statement wasn't mocking prayer

unless the Bibles you and I have read are different

[BedellBrave]

Address the problem pro-actively rather the around the elbow to get to your ass approach of thinking prayer and counseling will solve the problem Until we deal with those that made money from selling the Colorado shooter the shotgun and the shells we will continue down the same road.

In a nut shell - the political courage to stand up to the gun lobby and weapon profiteers.
the public courage to vote for people that will stand up


Okay. So what exactly are you proposing? Specifics please. I've given them to you. You mock. How do you "deal with those who made money" selling a shotgun and shotgun shells legally? How do you stand up against that evil shotgun lobby? Surely, you've got something more than your usual unhelpful rhetoric.

What's interesting to me is that I offer prayer and counseling as two options (actually items that aim at heart issues and not merely externals) in a list of 9 and you act as if those are the only two things I mention and then you won't give us any specifics of your own. Why?

[BedellBrave]

Letting the perfect be the enemy of the good - is a huge part of the problem - in my view.
Actually seems to be a common thread through so many of our political / social discussions. ACA is lousy because it isn't Medicare for all. Would be another example

Who is letting the perfect be an enemy of the good? You throw out a meme, apply it to a shooting where 1 innocent person dies, and so I then show you how you really can't apply that meme in the same way to Australia, and you then turn that into evidence that I'm letting the perfect be an enemy of the good. I'm scratching my head on that one 57. Help me out.

[BedellBrave]

The American issue with guns goes much deeper than people having access to them. Our culture breeds these maniacs. The fear, the consumerism, etc. make people do things they wouldn't do otherwise. Canada doesn't have a shooting provlem on the level of the US but they don't ban guns.


Well put Z.

[BedellBrave]

my statement wasn't mocking prayer

unless the Bibles you and I have read are different

I didn't think you did gold. That statement was directed to 57. I should have specified. You just don't see how prayer could be a factor and that's understandable, recognizing that we don't share the same theologies.

[57Brave]

Okay. So what exactly are you proposing? Specifics please. I've given them to you. You mock. How do you "deal with those who made money" selling a shotgun and shotgun shells legally? How do you stand up against that evil shotgun lobby? Surely, you've got something more than your usual unhelpful rhetoric.

What's interesting to me is that I offer prayer and counseling as two options (actually items that aim at heart issues and not merely externals) in a list of 9 and you act as if those are the only two things I mention and then you won't give us any specifics of your own. Why?



Much the same as we dealt with the tobacco companies and the illness' associated with smoking.
A pack of cigarettes is what now, $5.00?
the University I work at will be Tobacco Free after the first of the year. Without so much as a complaining letter to the editor

Extensive background checks and not just a 3 -10 day waiting period shoot make it a month.

I'm ready to be flamed but tax to high heaven nnot only the firearms but the ammunition - use those funds to pay for gun safety programs

Hold the munitions industry legally accountable for gun related deaths. Inner city and suburban

Fund mental health diagnosis and treatment

Firearms training in the schools. Teach our kids that yeah there is a place for firearms in our culture but educate and train them on the proper use and danger.
Take away the mystique

Address poverty in inner cities. I mean, seriously address poverty in our inner cities in a way that will meaning fully face down gang culture

///////////////////

As far as the comment of perfect being ... I mean that. you offered the example that Australia still has incidents -- but not the type of incidents we see here or with the regularity. Just because thre is no magic bean that will solve all of this doesn't mean we can't begin doing something
This will not be solved overnight but ---- we have to start somewhere or more importantly some time.

I asked earlier and never got an answer -- would you go out of your way to support a candidate that was willing to take a stand for something as simple as mandatory background checks?

[BedellBrave]

1. Much the same as we dealt with the tobacco companies and the illness' associated with smoking.
A pack of cigarettes is what now, $5.00?
the University I work at will be Tobacco Free after the first of the year. Without so much as a complaining letter to the editor

2. Extensive background checks and not just a 3 -10 day waiting period shoot make it a month.

3. I'm ready to be flamed but tax to high heaven nnot only the firearms but the ammunition - use those funds to pay for gun safety programs

4. Hold the munitions industry legally accountable for gun related deaths. Inner city and suburban

5. Fund mental health diagnosis and treatment

6. Firearms training in the schools. Teach our kids that yeah there is a place for firearms in our culture but educate and train them on the proper use and danger.
Take away the mystique

7. Address poverty in inner cities. I mean, seriously address poverty in our inner cities in a way that will meaning fully face down gang culture

///////////////////

8. As far as the comment of perfect being ... I mean that. you offered the example that Australia still has incidents -- but not the type of incidents we see here or with the regularity. Just because thre is no magic bean that will solve all of this doesn't mean we can't begin doing something
This will not be solved overnight but ---- we have to start somewhere or more importantly some time.

9. I asked earlier and never got an answer -- would you go out of your way to support a candidate that was willing to take a stand for something as simple as mandatory background checks?


First, thanks for offering specific ideas.

1. Basically we are suggesting the same thing. My difference (I suppose) is suggesting a progressive scale on the tax rate based on the lethalness of the weapon. You difference is taxing ammo as well. I'm not sure I'd go there - hey but that's the political discussion process.

2. As I've noted before, I am not opposed to background checks and a month wait, I could live with, though I'd think 2 weeks is sufficient and not punitive (a month seems punitive).

3. See my 1 above.

4. That dog won't hunt. I wouldn't push for that. And would suggest that if the gun-control crowd does, you proverbially shoot yourself in the foot. It would open Pandora's box and if applied equally, would have to be aimed at the manufacturer of any item or substance if that substance or item was intentionally used in the attempted murder of anybody.

5. Ok. (Your version of my prayer and counseling sort of ideas). What about psychotropic drug prescriptions being flagged in background checks? I mean with ACA Government will have that info, won't they? Or could easily enough.

6. Or train more killers. I'd prefer shooting course completion to purchase a lethal weapon.

7. Ok (again your version of my prayer and counseling points).

How about a sin tax on the video, music, tv, and movie industry? Or do they get a free pass?

8. I am not fond of simplified memes like that, particularly when they give false impressions. My earlier posts have shown clear enough, that I wasn't advocating doing nothing, or letting the perfect get in the way of the good, or that I thought there's a magic bean. Quite the contrary.

9. Being okay with background checks (despite not having as high a view of the goodness of fallen human beings once they wear a government hat), I'm okay with supporting a candidate that does. No problem.

[jpx7]

A couple of cops in every school would probably have a significant impact. Why not do something like this that could actually solve the problem and get done.

MOAR COPS.

MOAR GUNS.

Just like how you treat an AIDS patient by shooting 'em all up with HIV.

(Edit: And to be clarion: I'm not necessarily arguing the opposite of this MOAR COPS / MORE GUNS impulse is panacea, I just can't process why there is always such a knee-jerk in certain circles to double-down on weapons availability and institutionalized violence whenever something horrible and violent happens in this nation.)

[zitothebrave]

MOAR COPS.

MOAR GUNS.

Just like how you treat an AIDS patient by shooting 'em all up with HIV.

(Edit: And to be clarion: I'm not necessarily arguing the opposite of this MOAR COP / MORE GUNS impulse is panacea, I just can't process why there is always such a knee-jerk in certain circles to double-down on weapons availability and institutionalized violence whenever something horrible and violent happens in this nation.[/i]

I want to know how you're gonna pay for those cops? And do you have cops in private schools as well? Many issues with that.

[goldfly]

If by "didn't work" you mean didn't stop every murder using a gun, then yes, they "didn't work." Course that's a naive standard.

Whatcha want to try gold?

Banning shotguns?

Violent video games?

Violent movies?

Violent song lyrics?

Psychotropic drugs?

Works real good in the drug war doesn't it? And during Prohibition. Making stuff illegal and all.

Visit the homes of all disgruntle students and remove the guns and knives?

Put multiple cops in every school (you ought to like that since you think as highly as you do of cops)?
Metal detectors in every entryway in every school?

Bullet proof walls, doors, and windows in all new construction?

How about giving all the kiddos "A"s and nice trophies?

What do you want to try?

i don't think i would do any of this

*I would want to do some soul searching as a nation if the 2nd amendment is outdated
*I would require everyone that buys any type of gun to be required a rigorous gun safety course
*require safes to be had and be used
*outlaw gun shows
*set some type of national age for purchase (not sure where i would set it as of right now)
*rigorous background checks against violent offenders (not sure where i would say where to start with someone that is a "violent offender" but it wouldn't be a charge that is easy to be charged with) and checks for mentally ill
*it shouldn't take less than an hour to go in and get a gun and shouldn't take a day either etc.
*i would free up space in prisons by getting rid of non violent offenders and would lock up people with strict sentences for breaking gun laws
*make blackmarket gun sellers and owners some of the toughest sentences that aren't murder,rape and child molestation etc in this country


what i have come up with thus far and it is far from being perfect or the solution.

like most things, education is a key to a lot of problems

i do think there is some truth to this: I also think that it will take "heart" work - work done through loving neighbors, family members, ministers, counselors, etc. Government can have a role, but it can't do and shouldn't do everything.

i have no problem with guns personally. I own 1 and i could own anything under the sun and it wouldn't be a problem but i also don't think my freedoms are being stolen by saying we don't need to deal with this problem anymore and be tougher about it.

i never once while i was in Japan or Australia or New Zealand had the thought of "i better watch out" by going down this alley or whatever cause i thought i might get shot. i can't say that here back home and that is sad

[Krgrecw]

Yeah but look where you traveled. It all comes down to where you are. If you were certain parts of Brazil , Cape Town, Haiti, you'd be scared. Same for certain parts of the inner cities in America.

You won't hesitate about going for a walk at 1am in BFE, Iowa but I'm sure there's plenty of streets in Americas inner cities you wouldn't walk at that time

[goldfly]

It all comes down to where you are. Same for certain parts of the inner cities in America.

You won't hesitate about going for a walk at 1am in BFE, Iowa but I'm sure there's plenty of streets in Americas inner cities you wouldn't walk at that time

that's my point

we can do better

[Tapate50]

I want to know how you're gonna pay for those cops? And do you have cops in private schools as well? Many issues with that.

Pull those cops off the street since all they are doing is badgering the public and endangering lives (like the thread dedicated to bad cop behavior implies).

Let kids see these guys every day and get to know them. It would create a TON of good will toward police for our youth and possibly try to turn around the F' da poh lice mentality.

[goldfly]

Pull those cops off the street since all they are doing is badgering the public and endangering lives (like the thread dedicated to bad cop behavior implies).

Let kids see these guys every day and get to know them. It would create a TON of good will toward police for our youth and possibly try to turn around the F' da poh lice mentality.

i agree with this

have them "walk the beat" so he/she/they(a small part) is part of the community of a certain area.

but police themselves drive the f.uck the police mentality. it is an us vs them since they no longer protect and serve

[sturg33]

Pull those cops off the street since all they are doing is badgering the public and endangering lives (like the thread dedicated to bad cop behavior implies).

Let kids see these guys every day and get to know them. It would create a TON of good will toward police for our youth and possibly try to turn around the F' da poh lice mentality.

But then who would be parked behind the bushes looking for people who roll through stop signs???

[Tapate50]

But then who would be parked behind the bushes looking for people who roll through stop signs???

Old people.

[Tapate50]

i agree with this

have them "walk the beat" so he/she/they(a small part) is part of the community of a certain area.

but police themselves drive the f.uck the police mentality. it is an us vs them since they no longer protect and serve

I can't id with the last part... What the cops have to deal with around here is crazy.

[jpx7]

Pull those cops off the street since all they are doing is badgering the public and endangering lives (like the thread dedicated to bad cop behavior implies).

This is actually a pretty decent idea. The more we as citizens – both police and non-police – begin to (once again) see the constabulary as community servants and not the domestic military, the better.

[goldfly]

along the cop line


sentences for cops and elected officials should be 10 fold for them compared to a citizen when they break a law

it shouldn't be protecting them

[cajunrevenge]

The obvious solution is to ban schools. No schools no school shootings.

[gilesfan]

Luckily there was an armed deputy at the school that responded quickly.