Braves sign Gavin Floyd 1 yr 4M + incentives

[CrimsonCowboy]

David O'Brien ‏@ajcbraves 46s
#Braves are the "mystery team" that's been talking with Gavin Floyd. Believed to be close to a deal, but not finalized yet.

[COGPK]

Good move. A one year deal in which he is looking to get back after TJ surgery.

[Hawk]

Hum....

[Bye Week]

Looks close to done.

Floyd is an intriguing option. When did have the TJ surgery done?

[The Chosen One]

Gavin Floyd. I remember when he was an up and coming prospect for the phillies

[skillet]

Hopefully it is only a one year, small amount of money deal just for depth, and that Alex Wood is still our 5th starter, as Wood is much better than Floyd.

[nsacpi]

He's tended to underperform his peripherals, but this would be a decent move. He had TJ surgery in May, so he probably would not be ready the first month or two of the season.

[Hawk]

Looks close to done.

Floyd is an intriguing option. When did have the TJ surgery done?

May 7th.

[Tapate50]

Another solid move

[skillet]

It is a solid move if the money is no more than $1MM or so and for only one year. He will be good insurance later in the year since as stated he will not be available until at least a month or so into the season.

[nsacpi]

Looks like the Bravos have found the latest market inefficiency--pitchers coming back from TJ but not in time for opening day.

[Bye Week]

He was very consistent from 2008-2012

Era always around 4.00 and 1.30whip or so.

He is only 30 years old and it will be a one year deal. I like the move and he will provide depth later in the year.

[nsacpi]

It is a solid move if the money is no more than $1MM or so and for only one year. He will be good insurance later in the year since as stated he will not be available until at least a month or so into the season.

I think it will be over $1 M. My guess is 2-4 M depending on incentives.

[Heyward]

Looks close to done.

Floyd is an intriguing option. When did have the TJ surgery done?

Last May i believe.

Interesting option.

[tvsportscaster]

So is this what the Braves off season has been reduced to signing players come off injuries. Surely, there's more to come from Frank Wren. This is what he wasted the winter meetings doing.

[Hawk]

I feel like the numbers are going to truly decide if this was a good signing or not.

[skillet]

Looks like the Bravos have found the latest market inefficiency--pitchers coming back from TJ but not in time for opening day.

Good point and observation. These under the radar, non-sexy moves we are making are oftentimes the best, smartest moves you can make. I really like what we have done so far. We picked up Luis Vasquez to a next to no risk, minor league deal who could be a very nice addition to our pen, Mat Gamel also to a minor league deal who if he can finally get healthy could be a big help to our bench. Both guys are very low risk, high upside pickups that are exactly what this team, who is already very good, needs to be doing.

[Heyward]

So is this what the Braves off season has been reduced to signing players come off injuries. Surely, there's more to come from Frank Wren. This is what he wasted the winter meetings doing.

No, this is the only move they'll make

:facepalm:

[depley]

Anything more than a minor league deal is a waste of money.

[Heyward]

Anything more than a minor league deal is a waste of money.

We have 10-15 million to use i believe.

Floyd when healthy is good, 2-3 million would be fair, maybe more with incentives.

[Braves1976]

I figured we might be the mystery team, if not us then Toronto. A lot of speculation was for Toronto but we made more sense given what Wren and co. have been saying, etc.

That said, I am fine with signing Floyd for depth depending on the price.

[keithlaw]

I figured we might be the mystery team, if not us then Toronto. A lot of speculation was for Toronto but we made more sense given what Wren and co. have been saying.

That said, I am fine with signing Floyd for depth depending on the price.
I figured itd be the Dodgers

http://i1.ytimg.com/vi/uA_3MnVen08/hqdefault.jpg

[skillet]

I figured we might be the mystery team, if not us then Toronto. A lot of speculation was for Toronto but we made more sense given what Wren and co. have been saying, etc.

That said, I am fine with signing Floyd for depth depending on the price.

I agree that it makes sense IF the price is right.

[The Chosen One]

The piece we've been missing to give us our World Series crown.

[Braves1976]

Depending on the price, this sure beats the Bowman rumored trade with the Twins for Kevin Correia. If this move means no to that idea then okay good. But it is scary that we apparently even entertained that trade idea as Bowman claims.

[Braves1976]

I agree that it makes sense IF the price is right.

Apparently it will be an incentive-laden deal. So how much he makes in total will probably depend on how well he comes back from Tommy John (how many starts, innings, etc).

[Heyward]

Depending on the price, this sure beats the Bowman rumored trade with the Twins for Kevin Correia. If this move means no to that idea then okay good. But it is scary that we apparently even entertained that trade idea as Bowman claims.

This would probably take us out of Correia.

[Braves1976]

Looks like the Bravos have found the latest market inefficiency--pitchers coming back from TJ but not in time for opening day.

This move would also give Beachy another fella coming back from TJS to share stories. Venters of course has them both topped in that area (I sure hope Jonny makes it back from his second TJS).

[skillet]

This would probably take us out of Correia.

Thank goodness.

[50PoundHead]

I figured itd be the Dodgers

http://i1.ytimg.com/vi/uA_3MnVen08/hqdefault.jpg

Awesome pic! One of my favorite KITH skits.

[yeezus]

this seems like a really solid move. what are people expecting? we don't have a lot of weaknesses or open spots. our team is pretty much set. we aren't going to sign a big time FA. sorry.

and i doubt this rules out samardjiza.

[nsacpi]

The piece we've been missing to give us our World Series crown.

That would be Luis Vasquez who will replace Kimbrel as our closer in last July when he goes down with a shoulder injury. Fredi will not be afraid to use Vasquez for the 6 out save.

[nsacpi]

This would probably take us out of Correia.

Yes, I'm relieved about that.

[skillet]

http://www.ajc.com/news/sports/baseball/braves-negotiating-with-free-agent-pitcher-gavin-f/ncLLd/

[depley]

We have 10-15 million to use i believe.

Floyd when healthy is good, 2-3 million would be fair, maybe more with incentives.

Name one of the Braves starters as they currently look, Medlen, Minor, Teheran, Beachy and Wood, that this guy is superior to....... not one, therefore anything more than a minor league deal is a waste of money.

[nsacpi]

Name one of the Braves starters as they currently look, Medlen, Minor, Teheran, Beachy and Wood, that this guy is superior to....... not one, therefore anything more than a minor league deal is a waste of money.

You want to have more than five good starters for a 162 game season. Floyd could be inferior to the other five and it would still be a good signing. Assuming a reasonable price.

Btw Steamer projects him to have a 3.59 FIP, which is actually better than some of the other five.

[Heyward]

Name one of the Braves starters as they currently look, Medlen, Minor, Teheran, Beachy and Wood, that this guy is superior to....... not one, therefore anything more than a minor league deal is a waste of money.

One word: depth.

[thethe]

So is this what the Braves off season has been reduced to signing players come off injuries. Surely, there's more to come from Frank Wren. This is what he wasted the winter meetings doing.

What could they reasonably do to improve this roster sans trading a bunch of their future for an "ace" pitcher?

[rawwr]

Name one of the Braves starters as they currently look, Medlen, Minor, Teheran, Beachy and Wood, that this guy is superior to....... not one, therefore anything more than a minor league deal is a waste of money.

Now name one of the starters behind them that is better than Floyd.

Or do you honestly expect that none of the starting five will get hurt in 2014?

[COGPK]

So is this what the Braves off season has been reduced to signing players come off injuries. Surely, there's more to come from Frank Wren. This is what he wasted the winter meetings doing.

Yeah, this proves he did nothing. Made no contacts and didn't talk to any other GMs or FAs. He has wasted our time. :facepalm:

[Hawk]

Well, Mike Pelfrey just got $11MM (+ $3.5MM in performance bonuses) over two years from the Twins. Curious to see what Floyd will get if this deal does indeed go down.

[skillet]

Well, Mike Pelfrey just got $11MM (+ $3.5MM in performance bonuses) over two years from the Twins. Curious to see what Floyd will get if this deal does indeed go down.

Terrible deal for the Twins. What the hell? Pelfrey stinks.

[Braves1976]

Terrible deal for the Twins. What the hell? Pelfrey stinks.

They need him in the fold to make Kevin Correia look better. This way they figure some dumb or drunk GM will consider trading for him. Wren apparently has sobered up so time to look elsewhere for the Twins.

:happy0157:

[nsacpi]

Interesting to see how the FA starting pitching market is shaking out. The second and third tiers guys are gradually being signed. But you have Santana, Garza, Jimenez, Tanaka and maybe Burnett still out there. I wonder who is husbanding their funds to make a push for those guys. The Yankees look they will sign one or two. Maybe the Dodgers will get one. Who else will spend big on a starter? Rangers?

[yeezus]

we have a really good team. we don't need to mortgage our future (money and/or prospects) to improve and compete.
big names and move are always exciting, not always logical.

[bravesnumberone]

Well we know who Fredi will be starting in game 4 of the NLDS with the season on the line!

[Heyward]

Interesting to see how the FA starting pitching market is shaking out. The second and third tiers guys are gradually being signed. But you have Santana, Garza, Jimenez, Tanaka and maybe Burnett still out there. I wonder who is husbanding their funds to make a push for those guys. The Yankees look they will sign one or two. Maybe the Dodgers will get one. Who else will spend big on a starter? Rangers?

Dodgers rotation is set.

Kershaw, Greinke, Ryu, Haren, and Beckett or Billingsley.

Though they could sign one of the two since Beckett/Bills have injury questions.

[zitothebrave]

Anything more than a minor league deal is a waste of money.

Have to disagree. It's a quality gamble. Floyd when he was last healthy and good was a 3-4 fWAR pitcher. If he's at that level we get a bargain on anything we sign him for. If he sucks we wasted a few million. But I'd rather waste a few on Floyd than someone like Freddy Garcia

[Bdawg2309]

Well we know who Fredi will be starting in game 4 of the NLDS with the season on the line!

:pound::pound::pound::pound::pound::pound::pound:: pound::pound::pound::pound::pound::pound::pound::p ound::pound::pound::pound::pound::pound::pound::po und::pound::pound:

[stpeteirish]

Well, Mike Pelfrey just got $11MM (+ $3.5MM in performance bonuses) over two years from the Twins. Curious to see what Floyd will get if this deal does indeed go down.

Probably has nothing to do with what we give Floyd, as this move is asinine. Doesn't leave much room for Correia in their rotation.

A healthy Floyd will give us the ability to control Wood's innings.

[stpeteirish]

Well we know who Fredi will be starting in game 4 of the NLDS with the season on the line!

ironically, Freddy Garcia was once traded for Gavin Floyd.

[NinersSBChamps]

Quality signing assuming it's a team friendly deal. I just don't understand having two huge injury question marks in the rotation.

[BedellBrave]

Probably has nothing to do with what we give Floyd, as this move is asinine. Doesn't leave much room for Correia in their rotation.

A healthy Floyd will give us the ability to control Wood's innings.

^^^ This. Use Wood in the rotation early - April, May, June, and then work in Floyd.

I could also see Wren trying this up through the trade deadline and then making a move for a front of the rotation starter if needed.

[nsacpi]

Quality signing assuming it's a team friendly deal. I just don't understand having two huge injury question marks in the rotation.

Who are the two big injury question marks. As I see it Floyd is the sixth guy in case anything happens to one of the other five. He has a similar role as Beachy had last year.

[nsacpi]

^^^ This. Use Wood in the rotation early - April, May, June, and then work in Floyd.

I could also see Wren trying this up through the trade deadline and then making a move for a front of the rotation starter if needed.

I expect Wood to do really well in the rotation. I don't think he is going to get taken out once Floyd is ready.

[thethe]

I expect Wood to do really well in the rotation. I don't think he is going to get taken out once Floyd is ready.

I do think they will monitor his innings. If Beachy is solid next year then I see Wood in the bullpen in September.

[nsacpi]

From Bowman:

Floyd made just five starts for the White Sox this past season before having to undergo Tommy John surgery on May 6. During the procedure, Dr. David Altchek reconstructed the 30-year-old hurler’s right elbow by repairing a torn ulnar collateral ligament and torn flexor tendon.

Because both the tendon and ligament were repaired, Floyd could need more than the 12-month rehab schedule starting pitchers often experience after undergoing Tommy John surgery. Multiple post-surgery reports indicated he could be sidelined 14-19 months. If this proves to be true, he could be sidelined until early July.

[stpeteirish]

From Bowman:

Floyd made just five starts for the White Sox this past season before having to undergo Tommy John surgery on May 6. During the procedure, Dr. David Altchek reconstructed the 30-year-old hurler’s right elbow by repairing a torn ulnar collateral ligament and torn flexor tendon.

Because both the tendon and ligament were repaired, Floyd could need more than the 12-month rehab schedule starting pitchers often experience after undergoing Tommy John surgery. Multiple post-surgery reports indicated he could be sidelined 14-19 months. If this proves to be true, he could be sidelined until early July.

I'm no arm surgeon but wouldn't the two things (tendon and ligament) heal simutaneously? Seems like they're adding together the normal healing time for ligament surg (12 mths) and flexor tendon (6 months). Maybe it slows the rehab process.

If its 19 months the entire contract should be "incentive based" as 19 months means October 2014.

[Dalyn]

From Bowman:

Floyd made just five starts for the White Sox this past season before having to undergo Tommy John surgery on May 6. During the procedure, Dr. David Altchek reconstructed the 30-year-old hurler’s right elbow by repairing a torn ulnar collateral ligament and torn flexor tendon.

Because both the tendon and ligament were repaired, Floyd could need more than the 12-month rehab schedule starting pitchers often experience after undergoing Tommy John surgery. Multiple post-surgery reports indicated he could be sidelined 14-19 months. If this proves to be true, he could be sidelined until early July.

It is like they did this so they wouldn't be stuck with a Loe or a Garcia come September. Hope the pay is minimal with a team option for the following year.

[emk418]

I'm sorry but I just don't understand this. Why make a move like this still pretty early in the offseason and prevent us from other SP moves? This would be a decent signing in January if we've exhausted all other options but not now.

I've been the biggest Wren supporter over the years but I'm starting to really question his decision making.

[nsacpi]

I'm sorry but I just don't understand this. Why make a move like this still pretty early in the offseason and prevent us from other SP moves? This would be a decent signing in January if we've exhausted all other options but not now.

I've been the biggest Wren supporter over the years but I'm starting to really question his decision making.

What are these other SP moves that you think he should be making?

[MadduxFanII]

Signing Gavin Floyd for small money doesn't prevent us from doing anything. If we sign him, the rotation status quo stays the same: Minor-Teheran-Medlen-Beachy-Wood going into spring training, with Hale fighting for time. If we like that prospect, we'll stay with it. If we don't, we can still make a move. You sign Floyd on the idea that, when he's healthy, there's a pretty solid chance someone in that rotation will be hurt or struggling. Nothing about a Gavin Floyd signing means that Samardzija or any other pitcher is out of the question.

[emk418]

What are these other SP moves that you think he should be making?

I want Samardzija and maybe I'm wrong but I think this takes us out of the running.

[nsacpi]

I want Samardzija and maybe I'm wrong but I think this takes us out of the running.

I also think we should be making a serious offer for Samardzija. I don't think us getting Floyd has much effect on how the front office views things with respect to Samardzija.

[NinersSBChamps]

Who are the two big injury question marks. As I see it Floyd is the sixth guy in case anything happens to one of the other five. He has a similar role as Beachy had last year.

Beachy and Floyd are both injury risks. Beachy could very easily never play baseball again.

[clvclv]

Signing Gavin Floyd for small money doesn't prevent us from doing anything. If we sign him, the rotation status quo stays the same: Minor-Teheran-Medlen-Beachy-Wood going into spring training, with Hale fighting for time. If we like that prospect, we'll stay with it. If we don't, we can still make a move. You sign Floyd on the idea that, when he's healthy, there's a pretty solid chance someone in that rotation will be hurt or struggling. Nothing about a Gavin Floyd signing means that Samardzija or any other pitcher is out of the question.

I agree totally. Depending on the dollars involved and structure of the Floyd deal, I'd go even further and say that this might make a Samardzija deal even a little more likely. If the deal contains a 2015 option, you could argue that this might make Wren even more likely to include Wood in a Samardzija trade if that's what it takes to seal it.

Rotation options as is (assuming Floyd deal):

Medlen
Minor
Teheran
Beachy
Wood
Floyd
Hale

Assuming a Samardzija trade involving Wood:

Samardzija
Minor
Medlen
Teheran
Beachy
Floyd
Graham
Hale


If Floyd's deal contains an option, it certainly makes including Wood much easier to swallow. Then your 2015 rotation options include more than enough quality arms to reduce any need to rush a Sims or Cabrera. It would also give you three opportunities to trade Floyd for controllable assets if he proves healthy (2014 deadline, 2014 offseason, 2015 deadline).

[emk418]

I also think we should be making a serious offer for Samardzija. I don't think us getting Floyd has much effect on how the front office views things with respect to Samardzija.

I hope so

[thewupk]

I'm sorry but I just don't understand this. Why make a move like this still pretty early in the offseason and prevent us from other SP moves? This would be a decent signing in January if we've exhausted all other options but not now.

I've been the biggest Wren supporter over the years but I'm starting to really question his decision making.

Who says this option would be there in January. This is an option for depth. Something our rotation has needed a lot the past two seasons. We have a really good 1-5 imo with Wood and Beachy at the back end. But the chances of them staying healthy all year is pretty slim. There aren't any SPs available that are clear upgrades over what we have unless we want to blow the farm for Price which isn't going to happen.

[zitothebrave]

We need rotational depth. Floyd is that. Can't really complain about this move at all. Braves cannot have guys like Cameron Loe and Freddy Garcia having a big role in the stretch run.

[yeezus]

Really don't know why or how people can complain about this move. He's really good depth.

[Hawk]

Can't really complain about this move at all.

... until terms are finalized/released. It's not outside of the realm of possibility that Floyd could get over $5MM base, with incentives. Not a particularly crazy number, but I guarantee people will still flip out.

[nsacpi]

Btw if our rotation is Medlen, Minor, Beachy, Teheran and Wood that would be an all-home grown rotation. I can't think of the last time that happened. We always had a guy like Leibrandt who came from another organization.

[emk418]

If this is a depth move and were still in the market for a Samrdzija type then it's a good move. But if this is it for the rotatin it's questionable.

[Hawk]

@jcrasnick: Gavin Floyd has passed physical and agreed to deal with #braves. He'll make $4M base and can earn $4.5M more in incentives.
[ http://twitter.com/jcrasnick/status/412617227074953216 ]

@jcrasnick: There's no club option for 2015 in Floyd's deal with #braves. Contract includes performance and roster bonuses.
[ http://twitter.com/jcrasnick/status/412617888357285888 ]

[stpeteirish]

I hope with that kind of money he's ready in May, because if he isn't that's a lot of $ for a guy who can't pitch half the year.

[Krovahn]

@jcrasnick: Gavin Floyd has passed physical and agreed to deal with #braves. He'll make $4M base and can earn $4.5M more in incentives.
[ http://twitter.com/jcrasnick/status/412617227074953216 ]

@jcrasnick: There's no club option for 2015 in Floyd's deal with #braves. Contract includes performance and roster bonuses.
[ http://twitter.com/jcrasnick/status/412617888357285888 ]

More than I would have liked, but, not bad if he is healthy and can produce to career norms or better.

[Enscheff]

$4M-$8.5M is not a depth move for a team with payroll constraints like the Braves. If Floyd is Hudson's replacement in the rotation, and Gamel is the power off the bench, then these are not good enough additions. That $8.5M figure is probably the money Wren had slated to resign Hudson to a 1 year deal.

It looks like Wren is not going to fix 2B, and has made bargain bin reclamation project additions (Floyd, EOF/Venters, Gamel) to fill the other areas of need (rotation depth, BP arms, bench bat). This is shaping up to be a very poor offseason where Wren doesn't adequately fill any of the needs this team has.

[Hawk]

About $1MM under what I predicted, although wasn't expecting the incentives to be quite so lucrative.

This isn't a poor signing by any stretch of the imagination, but I can't help but feel rather ill at ease about it.

[BedellBrave]

Likely means that Wren will be waiting until the trade deadline to do anything larger, if then.

[zitothebrave]

Solid move. Floyd was worth an average of 3.2 fWAR per season. and 3.3 rWAR.

Obviously with him out until July or so he won't touch that. If he winds up at a 1.7 WAR he'll be well worth it.

[nsacpi]

With a payroll crunch looming for 2015 I'm not surprised Wren is focused on 1 year deal/reclamation project type additions. Infante at 8 M would have been a reasonable price, but the issue there and with other desirable players is the multiple years.

The looming 2015 crunch also implies that Wren will focus heavily on players whose contracts expire at the end of the 2014 season when making any mid-season acquisitions.

$4M for Floyd is not bad. Not great but not bad.

[ChadWC]

Solid move. Floyd was worth an average of 3.2 fWAR per season. and 3.3 rWAR.

Obviously with him out until July or so he won't touch that. If he winds up at a 1.7 WAR he'll be well worth it.

Supppsed to be on target for a May return.

[clvclv]

Solid move. Floyd was worth an average of 3.2 fWAR per season. and 3.3 rWAR.

Obviously with him out until July or so he won't touch that. If he winds up at a 1.7 WAR he'll be well worth it.

Don't really see how this can be questioned honestly.

IF Floyd pitches well enough to earn all the incentives, we're likely getting what we'd have hoped for from Hudson WITHOUT having to commit to him for multiple years.

Unless or until several SPs markets completely implode, we weren't getting better unless Wren traded for it. That may well still happen. That said, getting a better SP on the free-agent market isn't happening unless we're willing to go at least three years, and you're not getting a better Pitcher than Floyd via trade with the Northcrafts/Martins/etc. that many seem to think - no one in our system not named Wood/Sims/Cabrera/Graham has value as anything other than an extra arm thrown in.

[zitothebrave]

Supppsed to be on target for a May return.

I've heard all kinds of reports. I'll just imagine the worst. Hopefully he comes back healthy so that we can rock.

[Hawk]

@ajcbraves: not likely RT @baileycs82: @ajcbraves safe to assume Samardzija is still in play even after the Floyd signing?
[ http://twitter.com/ajcbraves/status/412624666839105538 ]

Edit: DOB modified that tweet, now saying "Much less likely now."

[MadduxFanII]

I have no strong opinions on this deal one way or the other!

[zitothebrave]

I have no strong opinions on this deal one way or the other!

I feel like saying that without a meme is missing out

http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/35001931.jpg

[MadduxFanII]

I feel like saying that without a meme is missing out

http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/35001931.jpg

All I know is my gut says...maybe.

[clvclv]

I feel like saying that without a meme is missing out

http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/35001931.jpg


How in the *ell have I missed the Shields/Fister line until now?!?!?

Waiting breathlessly to hear his take on this signing!!!

[depley]

Not an inspiring move to say the least.

[Heyward]

$4M-$8.5M is not a depth move for a team with payroll constraints like the Braves. If Floyd is Hudson's replacement in the rotation, and Gamel is the power off the bench, then these are not good enough additions. That $8.5M figure is probably the money Wren had slated to resign Hudson to a 1 year deal.

It looks like Wren is not going to fix 2B, and has made bargain bin reclamation project additions (Floyd, EOF/Venters, Gamel) to fill the other areas of need (rotation depth, BP arms, bench bat). This is shaping up to be a very poor offseason where Wren doesn't adequately fill any of the needs this team has.

Ugh, what 2B did you want?

I would of liked Kendrick but im not sure we give up much for him.

Im fine with TLS if Uggla keeps sucking.

[Heyward]

A little more than i thought but not too bad all things considered.

[zitothebrave]

Unless the Braves find a taker on Uggla, no way they look for help at 2B. Otherwise it's let Dan try to turn it aroudn or replace with LaStella/Pastor/etc.

[thethe]

Not sure what isn't to like about this deal. Floyd has been a good major league starter and could be a big plus by July when we suffer the inevitable injury.

[nsacpi]

Unless the Braves find a taker on Uggla, no way they look for help at 2B. Otherwise it's let Dan try to turn it aroudn or replace with LaStella/Pastor/etc.

The plan should be:

1) Give Uggla to mid-May to turn it around.

2) If he doesn't turn it around give La Stella or another in-house candidate two months to show they deserve the job.

3) If no one wins the job, do a mid-season trade.

[jsebe10]

Sorry...giving $4 mil + incentives to a pitcher sporting a career era at about 4.50 and prone to the long ball as well as coming off major elbow surgery is STUPID. In no way shape or form will this help us and we will calling for his head.

[stpeteirish]

DOB today has him recovering well and starting to throw soon. I wouldn't worry about the incentives; they're no doubt tied to the # of starts and he won't get them if he's a bust.

4 Mill for a competent 5th starter is pretty average. Of course the young, homegrown guys are cheaper but we've already debated the need to add on here and most agree we need to.

[Five]

Sorry...giving $4 mil + incentives to a pitcher sporting a career era at about 4.50 and prone to the long ball as well as coming off major elbow surgery is STUPID. In no way shape or form will this help us and we will calling for his head.

Correct.

[chipchildress]

seems like a lot of money for a guy that's just had major surgery, never has been all that great, and will miss significant time.

with that said, if this helps to keep wren from giving away young pitching talent in the minor leagues, then i'm all for it.

[zitothebrave]

Sorry...giving $4 mil + incentives to a pitcher sporting a career era at about 4.50 and prone to the long ball as well as coming off major elbow surgery is STUPID. In no way shape or form will this help us and we will calling for his head.

That's short sighted.

Since floyd became a full time starter (2008) he has a 4.15 ERA in the AL. Which equates to a 107 ERA+. As far as homers his park plays a factor. US Cellular is known to be homer friendly park. Turner isn't as bad. That alone is a drop.

[emk418]

Floyds a solid back end of the rotation starter. The problem is that we either needed a TOR or a reliable innings eater for the 5th spot. A healthy Floyd is that but given that he's not due back until May or June and coming off TJ surgery nobody can be overly confident we get any use from him. Again, a healthy Floyd is a decent pitcher and I'm fine with the move but definitely wish we would have been more aggressive for an impact SP. I get it that we have great young talent that should continue to improve but losing McCann and Hudson while adding Floyd means we are definitely in worse shape.

[50PoundHead]

Don't really see how this can be questioned honestly.

IF Floyd pitches well enough to earn all the incentives, we're likely getting what we'd have hoped for from Hudson WITHOUT having to commit to him for multiple years.

Unless or until several SPs markets completely implode, we weren't getting better unless Wren traded for it. That may well still happen. That said, getting a better SP on the free-agent market isn't happening unless we're willing to go at least three years, and you're not getting a better Pitcher than Floyd via trade with the Northcrafts/Martins/etc. that many seem to think - no one in our system not named Wood/Sims/Cabrera/Graham has value as anything other than an extra arm thrown in.

Precisely.

I think your comments are pretty close to, if not exactly, what Wren is thinking.

[zitothebrave]

What impact SP were even on the market?

Ricky Nolasco? Ubaldo Jimenez? Santana? Burnett? Garza? Kazmir?

The ERA+ of those guys last 3 seasons and last season.

Jimenez 90/113
Nolasco 91/101
Santana 101/127
Burnett 97/107
Garza 110/106
Kazmir 93 (only really pitched in 2013)

Only Santana and Garza have a higher or equal 3 year total.

None of those guys are impact starters except Jimenez who's a big risk.

[emk418]

What impact SP were even on the market?

Ricky Nolasco? Ubaldo Jimenez? Santana? Burnett? Garza? Kazmir?

The ERA+ of those guys last 3 seasons and last season.

Jimenez 90/113
Nolasco 91/101
Santana 101/127
Burnett 97/107
Garza 110/106
Kazmir 93 (only really pitched in 2013)

Only Santana and Garza have a higher or equal 3 year total.

None of those guys are impact starters except Jimenez who's a big risk.

As I said....if not an impact pitcher then a reliable innings eater. I am NOT saying this is a bad signing but if we were planning on going this route my point is I would rather have someone not missing 2 months of the year and coming back from Tommy John.

[Heyward]

Floyds a solid back end of the rotation starter. The problem is that we either needed a TOR or a reliable innings eater for the 5th spot. A healthy Floyd is that but given that he's not due back until May or June and coming off TJ surgery nobody can be overly confident we get any use from him. Again, a healthy Floyd is a decent pitcher and I'm fine with the move but definitely wish we would have been more aggressive for an impact SP. I get it that we have great young talent that should continue to improve but losing McCann and Hudson while adding Floyd means we are definitely in worse shape.

The only TOR available are Samardizja and Price.

The cost for both is extreme.

[Heyward]

David O'Brien ‏@ajcbraves 3h

Wren said targeting May return for Gavin Floyd. Gavin characterized it as TBA but said he feels great. Should start throwing off mound in wk.

[Enscheff]

Ugh, what 2B did you want?

I would of liked Kendrick but im not sure we give up much for him.

Im fine with TLS if Uggla keeps sucking.

I'm sure most "would of" (would've or would have) liked Kendrick.

It's not JUST the fact Wren didn't fix 2B (the biggest hole on the roster), but the way he has fixed ALL areas of need.

The Braves needed to add a piece in 4 areas: 2B, LHed BP, rotation, and bench bat. All the fixes have been injured players that are no more than additional question marks added to the roster. None of the areas of need were actually fixed, they were only maybe fixed if everything worked out when the guy was finally healthy.

Why go into the season with so many roster spots guaranteed to be problematic?

This offseason has been a complete and utter failure so far in my opinion. It is clear Wren severely miscalculated the cost of adding talent this offseason and is now falling back on plans D and E in all cases.

[Heyward]

I'm sure most "would of" (would've or would have) liked Kendrick.

It's not JUST the fact Wren didn't fix 2B (the biggest hole on the roster), but the way he has fixed ALL areas of need.

The Braves needed to add a piece in 4 areas: 2B, LHed BP, rotation, and bench bat. All the fixes have been injured players that are no more than additional question marks added to the roster. None of the areas of need were actually fixed, they were only "maybe" fixed.

Why go into the season with so many roster spots guaranteed to be problematic?

This offseason has been a complete and utter failure so far in my opinion. It is clear Wren severely miscalculated the cost of adding talent this offseason and is now falling back on plans D and E in all cases.

We dont have alot of payroll flexibility.

So im not sure why you think we were going to make a lot of moves.

[nsacpi]

It is clear Wren severely miscalculated the cost of adding talent this offseason and is now falling back on plans D and E in all cases.

In what way would "correctly" estimating the cost of adding talent have made a difference?

[nsacpi]

We dont have alot of payroll flexibility.

So im not sure why you think we were going to make a lot of moves.

Actually Wren had quite a bit of payroll flexibility. The Braves have a number of players who could have been moved to create payroll space. Freeman, Heyward, Kimbrel, Medlen, Minor, Justin Upton, Chris Johnson. I'm glad Wren chose not to exercise any of those options.

He could probably have moved Uggla by bundling him with some top prospects like Sims, Bethancourt, Graham, etc. I'm glad he didn't take that road either.

[MadduxFanII]

Wren has talked a lot about the "sticker shock" he's witnessed at the price of pitching and generally mediocre free agents (you may now insert your snarky comments about BJ Upton and Derek Lowe). The impression I've gotten is that the Braves don't love the idea of going into spring training with a Minor-Teheran-Medlen-Beachy-Wood rotation; that's an extraordinarily young group, Beachy's a serious injury risk and there's not much depth beyond Hale.

But they don't hate the idea so much that they're willing to shell out huge dollars or shred a re-building farm system just to avoid it. In a perfect world, they'd pick up Lohse or Samardzija at a reasonable price, slot the new guy into the fourth spot, and let Beachy, Wood and Hale battle for the final rotation spot while the losers serve as insurance. It's not a perfect world, however, so you get Gavin Floyd instead.

As for Floyd...eh, I'm willing to give the Braves the benefit of the doubt here. Roger McDowell and company have more than earned that, and Floyd was a reasonable enough pitcher when healthy.

[nsacpi]

Wren has talked a lot about the "sticker shock" he's witnessed at the price of pitching and generally mediocre free agents (you may now insert your snarky comments about BJ Upton and Derek Lowe). The impression I've gotten is that the Braves don't love the idea of going into spring training with a Minor-Teheran-Medlen-Beachy-Wood rotation; that's an extraordinarily young group, Beachy's a serious injury risk and there's not much depth beyond Hale.

But they don't hate the idea so much that they're willing to shell out huge dollars or shred a re-building farm system just to avoid it. In a perfect world, they'd pick up Lohse or Samardzija at a reasonable price, slot the new guy into the fourth spot, and let Beachy, Wood and Hale battle for the final rotation spot while the losers serve as insurance. It's not a perfect world, however, so you get Gavin Floyd instead.

As for Floyd...eh, I'm willing to give the Braves the benefit of the doubt here. Roger McDowell and company have more than earned that, and Floyd was a reasonable enough pitcher when healthy.

That's about right. Last season, they went into spring training with five starters and a spare in Beachy who was supposed to be ready in June.

This season, they are in a very similar situation.

It is worth keeping in mind that teams often give 8 or more starters at least 10 starts over the course a full season. It is a long season. Last season, we saw Hudson, Maholm and Beachy fall by the wayside. We got a bit lucky with Wood's rapid development (which offset a bit of bad luck in the form of injuries to Graham and Gilmartin).


I think when setting your starting pitching depth you want to go eight deep and make a judgment whether you have enough. Our eight top guys now are Medlen, Minor, Beachy, Teheran, Wood, Floyd, Hale and Maya.

Yunesky Maya to me is a very good and underrated signing. One of two minor league signings (the other being Luis Vasquez) who I think are going to help the major league team in 2014.

[yeezus]

Floyd has the potential to be one of the best bargain FA signings this off-season. The guys who have received big contracts, even if they play their best, are only living up to it. If Floyd reaches his 8.5 million, I'm guessing it will be based on a very good season and will end up being a bargain. He's been an extremely solid SP from 2008 on. We got a potentially great bargain, and pitching in our park and with McDowell, he could easily get back the levels he was at prior to TJ.

I'm not down for mortgaging the farm or future. Price would cost a crap ton. Samardjiza apparently would, too. Kendrick would not be let go for a bargain, he would cost a lot, too. I really like this move.

[Tapate50]

Signed Gavin Floyd?! Suck it Nats!



Just kidding... The upgrade from Loe to Hale is going to be huge. :Alone:

[emk418]

I'm sure most "would of" (would've or would have) liked Kendrick.

It's not JUST the fact Wren didn't fix 2B (the biggest hole on the roster), but the way he has fixed ALL areas of need.

The Braves needed to add a piece in 4 areas: 2B, LHed BP, rotation, and bench bat. All the fixes have been injured players that are no more than additional question marks added to the roster. None of the areas of need were actually fixed, they were only maybe fixed if everything worked out when the guy was finally healthy.

Why go into the season with so many roster spots guaranteed to be problematic?

This offseason has been a complete and utter failure so far in my opinion. It is clear Wren severely miscalculated the cost of adding talent this offseason and is now falling back on plans D and E in all cases.

IMO adding a 2B was never on our to do list this offseason. We either trade Uggla and let La Stella, Pastornicky, Pena battle it out or go into ST with Uggla and let them all battle it out.

[yeezus]

IMO adding a 2B was never on our to do list this offseason. We either trade Uggla and let La Stella, Pastornicky, Pena battle it out or go into ST with Uggla and let them all battle it out.

And I think, given our payroll restrictions and the guys we're going to need to sign in the coming years, this was the smart thing to do. You have to give La Stella a shot at some point. We weren't going to find a major upgrade at 2B without giving up a lot. That's really hard to grasp for some people.

[GovClintonTyree]

Signed Gavin Floyd?! Suck it Nats!



Just kidding... The upgrade from Loe to Hale is going to be huge. :Alone:

Wullll...yeah.

I think the Braves are very happy with Minor, Medlen, Teheran, Beachy, Wood - if they all come through and if they're all healthy. And I hope they are and do, in which case Floyd is just insurance. But if one of them falls out of the rotation by 5/31, Floyd goes in. I think it makes sense for us and its a good opportunity to re establish value for the player.

Wood and Beachy were gonna get eight starts each to start the season no matter what, as long as they are physically able.

[Knucksie]

Going to add a different perspective here. How Beachy will respond will not be known until ST. It's also not set in stone that Wood has a spot in the rotation, bullpen or a ticket to Gwinnett. Next up is the fact that there are always fewer available starts in April. So, with Floyd not available until May, that shouldn't cause any disruptions. This signing also doesn't preclude Wren from still attempting to acquire another starting pitcher.

[Hudson2]

How does it not keep him from adding another starter? He has potentially 8.5 million wrapped up in Floyd.

[GovClintonTyree]

Signed Gavin Floyd?! Suck it Nats!



Just kidding... The upgrade from Loe to Hale is going to be huge. :Alone:

Wullll...yeah.

I think the Braves are very happy with Minor, Medlen, Teheran, Beachy, Wood - if they all come through and if they're all healthy. And I hope they are and do, in which case Floyd is just insurance. But if one of them falls out of the rotation by 5/31, Floyd goes in. I think it makes sense for us and its a good opportunity to re establish value for the player.

Wood and Beachy were gonna get eight starts each to start the season no matter what, as long as they are physically able.

[Enscheff]

IMO adding a 2B was never on our to do list this offseason. We either trade Uggla and let La Stella, Pastornicky, Pena battle it out or go into ST with Uggla and let them all battle it out.

Fine, then fix the other 3 areas instead of sticking more questions on the roster.

I must be the only one around here concerned that Hudson and Mac are essentially being replaced by Floyd and Gamel...two guys who have been injured for a year and may or may not make the club on opening day. Hell, it is 100% certain Floyd will miss the first month or more.

This is one of the worst offseasons I can remember for the Braves.

[Enscheff]

Going to add a different perspective here. How Beachy will respond will not be known until ST. It's also not set in stone that Wood has a spot in the rotation, bullpen or a ticket to Gwinnett. Next up is the fact that there are always fewer available starts in April. So, with Floyd not available until May, that shouldn't cause any disruptions. This signing also doesn't preclude Wren from still attempting to acquire another starting pitcher.

Floyd is being paid the money they had earmarked for Hudson. If he doesn't make it back then they will use his incentive money to pay for a starter at the deadline.

Like it or not, Floyd IS the rotation help Wren was seeking.

[benchguy]

ur opinion ....u don't know what is going to happen anymore than anyone else on this board..


I'm sure most "would of" (would've or would have) liked Kendrick.

It's not JUST the fact Wren didn't fix 2B (the biggest hole on the roster), but the way he has fixed ALL areas of need.

The Braves needed to add a piece in 4 areas: 2B, LHed BP, rotation, and bench bat. All the fixes have been injured players that are no more than additional question marks added to the roster. None of the areas of need were actually fixed, they were only maybe fixed if everything worked out when the guy was finally healthy.

Why go into the season with so many roster spots guaranteed to be problematic?

This offseason has been a complete and utter failure so far in my opinion. It is clear Wren severely miscalculated the cost of adding talent this offseason and is now falling back on plans D and E in all cases.

[zitothebrave]

Fine, then fix the other 3 areas instead of sticking more questions on the roster.

I must be the only one around here concerned that Hudson and Mac are essentially being replaced by Floyd and Gamel...two guys who have been injured for a year and may or may not make the club on opening day. Hell, it is 100% certain Floyd will miss the first month or more.

This is one of the worst offseasons I can remember for the Braves.

We won 96 games last year, so far we've lose 2 players to FA, Hudson and McCann, a combined 4.4 fWAR. We're replacing Mac with more Gattis. A likely downgrade there. But should be more than made up by BOssman bouncing backa nd better production from 2B whether it's through Uggla hitting again or being replaced by TLS. Not to mention Simmons if he can keep his power at a respectable level will be much better. We're probably slighlty worse than last year, but if we're a 92 win team we're in the playoffs, how can that be one of the worst offseasons?

[tululush]

A 92 win team in the playoffs may be true but we may be playing in the wild card game. Ugh. Playing in that one game crapshoot should never be the goal.


We won 96 games last year, so far we've lose 2 players to FA, Hudson and McCann, a combined 4.4 fWAR. We're replacing Mac with more Gattis. A likely downgrade there. But should be more than made up by BOssman bouncing backa nd better production from 2B whether it's through Uggla hitting again or being replaced by TLS. Not to mention Simmons if he can keep his power at a respectable level will be much better. We're probably slighlty worse than last year, but if we're a 92 win team we're in the playoffs, how can that be one of the worst offseasons?

[graffy]

A 92 win team in the playoffs may be true but we may be playing in the wild card game. Ugh. Playing in that one game crapshoot should never be the goal.

92 wins would have won the division by 6 games last year.

[PawPawMaxwell]

I usually agree pretty much with what Enscheff puts up but here I have to disagree.

We are all aware of the needs or shortcomings of this team.

IMO there has not been a single FA signing by any team that was applicable to the Braves needs. So far, and again IMO the trading season is just now starting, there hasnt been a single trade that was applicable and affordable to the Braves needs.

[Knucksie]

We won 96 games last year, so far we've lose 2 players to FA, Hudson and McCann, a combined 4.4 fWAR. We're replacing Mac with more Gattis. A likely downgrade there. But should be more than made up by BOssman bouncing backa nd better production from 2B whether it's through Uggla hitting again or being replaced by TLS. Not to mention Simmons if he can keep his power at a respectable level will be much better. We're probably slighlty worse than last year, but if we're a 92 win team we're in the playoffs, how can that be one of the worst offseasons?

WAR is useful, but it's not the end all/be all.

A much simpler analysis was available. Since it wasn't complicated enough, nobody paid attention, when I posted it at Scout. Here it is again:

In 2012, the Braves would have won the division if they'd played .500 in the season series vs. the Nationals. Prior to the '13 season, I mentioned it again. Nobody could've known how much the Nats were going to regress. (Considering how much ranting and venting there is at this forum, their fans really have something to complain about!) Now factor in a rookie, inexperienced manager to the equation.

The rest of you need to stop paying attention to the writers getting worked up about Washington. Part of their jobs is to continue selling the game in our nation's capital, because the league needs for it to happen, esp. after failing their twice already. Plus they have a new playpen.

For the traditionalists, hope springs eternal. Some of you are expecting doom, and we haven't even celebrated Christmas yet.

[rico43]

I'm sorry but I just don't understand this. Why make a move like this still pretty early in the offseason and prevent us from other SP moves? This would be a decent signing in January if we've exhausted all other options but not now.

I've been the biggest Wren supporter over the years but I'm starting to really question his decision making.

:Wall:

I believe the tone of the old site has been achieved here.

[PawPawMaxwell]

Other than Uggla and BJ not a single starter or rotation pitcher has reached his traditional physical maturity. What does that portend?//

[Enscheff]

My concerns have nothing to do with the Nats or their moves.

My concerns with the roster are based on the clear areas of need and the fact Wren has not solved a single one of those needs.

Every single move made so far to address those needs (EOF, Venters, Gamel, Floyd) comes with SERIOUS injury concerns. It is quite possible that none of those signees make an impact before the AS break. In what world are these signings adequate for a WS contending team?

How much koolaid do I need to drink so I can see this as anything other than a total bust of an offseason so far?

[emk418]

We won 96 games last year, so far we've lose 2 players to FA, Hudson and McCann, a combined 4.4 fWAR. We're replacing Mac with more Gattis. A likely downgrade there. But should be more than made up by BOssman bouncing backa nd better production from 2B whether it's through Uggla hitting again or being replaced by TLS. Not to mention Simmons if he can keep his power at a respectable level will be much better. We're probably slighlty worse than last year, but if we're a 92 win team we're in the playoffs, how can that be one of the worst offseasons?

Because some of us would like to go to the playoffs with a chance to actually advance past the 1st round. Losing your two biggest leaders on the team and adding pieces that have no guarantee to ever contribute this year is clear regression in my eyes.

[rico43]

ur opinion ....u don't know what is going to happen anymore than anyone else on this board..

La Stella, Floyd, Hale, Pena, EOF, JoeT, Buchter and pray to the Gods of baseball that EITHER Uggs or BJ rebounds from the darkness of fail, and I got no problem with this team. I want the money spent paying who we have, with a couple of long-terms (Heyward and Andy) to get the ball rolling.

[emk418]

:Wall:

I believe the tone of the old site has been achieved here.

Not really sure what's wrong with that post.

[Knucksie]

:Wall:

I believe the tone of the old site has been achieved here.

With some of the personalities involved, it was only a matter of time.

[MadduxFanII]

Because some of us would like to go to the playoffs with a chance to actually advance past the 1st round. Losing your two biggest leaders on the team and adding pieces that have no guarantee to ever contribute this year is clear regression in my eyes.

What moves do you think could guarantee...or, actually, to be more generous, what moves do you think would greatly, significantly increase our chances of advancing past the first round?

[emk418]

What moves do you think could guarantee...or, actually, to be more generous, what moves do you think would greatly, significantly increase our chances of advancing past the first round?

No moves guarantee it. Again it's just my opinion but I'm a HUGE Samardzija fan. I 100% would pay a steep price for him and think he would greatly improve our chances in the playoffs.

[nsacpi]

David O'Brien @ajcbraves
Follow
#Braves GM Frank Wren post Floyd signing today: "I don’t think that we’re going to be actively pursuing starters at this point."


2:48 PM - 16 Dec 2013

[skillet]

Really hard to get either excited or particularly bummed about this signing. Pitching depth is always important, and not giving up any prospects is a good thing. Due to the outrageous inflation in salaries we are seeing, I guess $4M guaranteed with incentives is probably about right. Still, hard to get excited about a guy that will definitely miss at least the first month or more of the season and could miss significantly more than that, and is when healthy just a decent major league pitcher. Plus, the money we now have allocated to him ($8.5M in case he hits the incentives) soaks up most of what little payroll flexibility we had.

[Julio3000]

Other than Uggla and BJ not a single starter or rotation pitcher has reached his traditional physical maturity. What does that portend?//

That the training staff really has these guys on the wrong drugs.

That, or perhaps that the team should consider moving further away than Cobb County, because there must be something going on with the North Georgia watershed.

[Hawk]

I happen to be pretty content with the path of fiscal restraint that the Braves have operated from this offseason (especially in relation to MLB as a whole), but I can also understand the frustration expressed by those who prefer splashy and aggressive moves. The team was so close to postseason success in 2013, yet it seems as though Wren and Co. have dug in and prepared for a battle of attrition as opposed to marching in for the kill with a couple of major deals/signings.

There is inherent risk in a player like Gavin Floyd, who is coming back from a major, career threatening injury (and three years of mediocrity.) There is logic in displeasure at the terms of the contract -- an $8.5MM commitment is sizable and risky, especially when $4MM of it is guaranteed to a balky arm that might not even throw a single pitch in Atlanta (see: Ryan Madson and Scott Baker). There shouldn't be any disputing that it's a roll of the dice. But could the Braves have done any better? Doubtful.

[Hawk]

But could the Braves have done any better? Doubtful.

And now, after reading the following tweet from Bowman, stand by that statement completely:

@mlbbowman: #Braves interest in Samardzija died more than a week ago because of the asking price. They then looked at Capuano, Chen, Volquez and Floyd
[ http://twitter.com/mlbbowman/status/412737258253328385 ]

[Enscheff]

David O'Brien @ajcbraves
Follow
#Braves GM Frank Wren post Floyd signing today: "I don’t think that we’re going to be actively pursuing starters at this point."


2:48 PM - 16 Dec 2013

As I said, this is the Hudson replacement. Very underwhelming to say the least...

[nsacpi]

As I said, this is the Hudson replacement. Very underwhelming to say the least...

The way I think of it Wood is replacing Maholm in the rotation and Beachy replacing Hudson. And Floyd is our sixth starter. If everyone is healthy and pitching well, I suspect Floyd ends up in the pen as a long reliever. But chances are someone(s) will miss some starts.

[nsacpi]

And now, after reading the following tweet from Bowman, stand by that statement completely:

@mlbbowman: #Braves interest in Samardzija died more than a week ago because of the asking price. They then looked at Capuano, Chen, Volquez and Floyd
[ http://twitter.com/mlbbowman/status/412737258253328385 ]

Volquez has already signed with the Pirates. I thought Capuano and Chen were interesting options as sixth starter/long reliever. Capuano though probably will get a multi-year contract which the Bravos were not going to hand out.

[jpx7]

Very underwhelming to say the least...

What if it ends up being $4-million spent as leverage in trade talks with the Cubs, now that the Braves have yet another rotational option and can argue they even less "need" to acquire Samardzija (or any other starter).

[thewupk]

Because some of us would like to go to the playoffs with a chance to actually advance past the 1st round. Losing your two biggest leaders on the team and adding pieces that have no guarantee to ever contribute this year is clear regression in my eyes.

Leaders =/= longest tenured players. If Hudson returned he is likely our 5th best starter anyways. He is going to be 39 years old. It is time to move on.

[emk418]

And now, after reading the following tweet from Bowman, stand by that statement completely:

@mlbbowman: #Braves interest in Samardzija died more than a week ago because of the asking price. They then looked at Capuano, Chen, Volquez and Floyd
[ http://twitter.com/mlbbowman/status/412737258253328385 ]

I'm very curious what the asking price was. I know it was going to be steep but how much of it was the Cubs asking for too much and how much Wren making way too many prospects untouchable.

[The Chosen One]

I'm very curious what the asking price was. I know it was going to be steep but how much of it was the Cubs asking for too much and how much Wren making way too many prospects untouchable.

Apparently the Cubs were asking for Laird AND Fredi, and Wren had already started to laugh in Epstein's face when he mentioned Laird first before Fredi's name was even brought to the table.

[thewupk]

I'm very curious what the asking price was. I know it was going to be steep but how much of it was the Cubs asking for too much and how much Wren making way too many prospects untouchable.

Probably a combination of both. He would of been helpful to the team and if we had major weaknesses in the rotation he might of been worth what the Cubs were asking. But he wouldn't be a major upgrade to the team. He is no ace.

[weso1]

I understand the move, but it seems extremely risky. That's a lot of money for someone who has a very good chance of not being productive at all. I guess it was either this or Wren's annual, "We can get an all star caliber player for half the cost at the deadline," quote.

[weso1]

Actually Floyd has been better than I thought after looking at his stats with the White Sox. I didn't realize he had been that good. That's a tough park to pitch in and he was pretty consistent. It makes me feel better about it now.

Could we potentially get a pick out of this if Floyd comes back and puts up a 3.5 ERA for 3 months?

[emk418]

I didn't realize Floyd is coming back from a torn ulnar collateral ligament AND a torn flexor tendon. Meaning it's HIGHLY unlikely he's back at the 12 month mark. Most pitchers take a minimum of 12 months for one of those.

[skidlee]

Dan Connolly ‏@danconnollysun 2m

Industry source: #Orioles offered Balt native Gavin Floyd 2-yr deal worth, w incentives, $20M. Took 1yr, $4m (pot. $4.5 more w inctvs) w Atl

[jsebe10]

Dan Connolly ‏@danconnollysun 2m

Industry source: #Orioles offered Balt native Gavin Floyd 2-yr deal worth, w incentives, $20M. Took 1yr, $4m (pot. $4.5 more w inctvs) w Atl

HIGHLY and I mean HIGHLY doubtful that happened.

[skidlee]

HIGHLY and I mean HIGHLY doubtful that happened.

Why?

[Hawk]

Does seem a little curious, but if anything, glaringly illustrates the fact that Floyd will almost certainly be a 'one and done' in ATL.

[yeezus]

How do people see this as "expensive"? If he's unproductive or average, he won't be getting 8.5. If he's really good, he gets 8.5 and is well worth it.
I really want to know what people would prefer we do. Give me specific examples.
Did you want to trade a guy like Sims for Kendrick? How about 3-4 of our top prospects for Samardjiza? Is Josh Johnson a better signing than Floyd? Floyd could EASILY outproduce Johnson this year.
There is nothing wrong with what's happened this off-season. We possess a very young team in every area. Our franchise is expecting growth in many of them.
Wood in the rotation is likely a big upgrade over Maholm. Beachy can match what Hudson did provided health. Add in the expected growth of Teheran and Minor, and the steadiness of Medlen - how is that not a very good rotation?

Again, please list specifically what YOU wanted done, and what you would have given up to get it done.

[yeezus]

Does seem a little curious, but if anything, glaringly illustrates the fact that Floyd will almost certainly be a 'one and done' in ATL.

I'm totally cool with that. He will pitch motivated and try to raise his value and get a longer deal.
Also shows we got him for far below what another team offered him, which should shut some people up.

[yeezus]

It's not like we had a ton of leverage with the Cubs. If no one offers what they want for JS, they will just keep him.
Wren knew we couldn't just wait that out and hope they lower their price. He likely decided they will just hold on to him, barring an unreal return, and had to move on.
Paying 8.5 for a really good starter is great. If Floyd pitches to his previous career levels, 8.5 is a total steal.

[skidlee]

Dan Connolly ‏@danconnollysun 8m

Those who dont get why Floyd woulda turned down more $, longer deal. Assume if healthy in 2014, he'd get at least Feldman $ (3-30) in 2015

[jsebe10]

Why?


Because no organization would make a financial gamble like that. Especially the Os who are strapped for cash bc of AJ.

[jsebe10]

Dan Connolly ‏@danconnollysun 8m

Those who dont get why Floyd woulda turned down more $, longer deal. Assume if healthy in 2014, he'd get at least Feldman $ (3-30) in 2015


Now if this is true and this is why he rejected, then I tip my hat to him.

[skidlee]

Because no organization would make a financial gamble like that. Especially the Os who are strapped for cash bc of AJ.

It was 2 years that with incentives would get it to 20 mill. He wasn't getting 20 million. Yes when you look at what other SP's have gotten this year he would easily get Feldman money if he was healthy.

[jsebe10]

I see your point. But what I really want done is to improve or weaker points. You can say that we can improve our need at 2B internally but the same could be said about the position Floyd was signed for. We HAVE to improve our bench and we need another good arm in the pen. $4 mil goes a long way in doing so.



really want to know what people would prefer we do. Give me specific examples.

Did you want to trade a guy like Sims for Kendrick? How about 3-4 of our top prospects for Samardjiza? Is Josh Johnson a better signing than Floyd? Floyd could EASILY outproduce Johnson this year.
There is nothing wrong with what's happened this off-season. We possess a very young team in every area. Our
franchise is expecting growth in many of them.

Wood in the rotation is likely a big upgrade over Maholm. Beachy can match what Hudson did provided health. Add in the expected growth of Teheran and Minor, and the steadiness of Medlen - how is that not a very good rotation?

Again, please list specifically what YOU wanted done, and what you would have given up to get it done.[/QUOTE]

[skidlee]

We have no money to do anything. Pretty obvious. Roughly 13-15 million in free money. We have spend 4 mill of that and my guess is the Floyd won't get him full 4.5 in incentives but say he gets 2 mill. So 6 mill spent.

But if we did I would have done the following.


Hale, Gilmartin, & Terdo for Loshe (would the brewers do this? No clue)
Re-sign EOF 1 yr 4.5 mill (still could happen)
Sign Eric Chavez 1 yr 4 mill (still could happen but unlikely)

The braves went into last year hoping Beachy would be ready at some point. He wasn't and it backfired. So now they are going to go into next year with Floyd for Depth and paying him 4 mill. Even more Risky then Beachy. Wren was never going to do anything crazy (ala Price) but I was hoping he would actually get a healthy starting pitcher.

[yeezus]

I see your point. But what I really want done is to improve or weaker points. You can say that we can improve our need at 2B internally but the same could be said about the position Floyd was signed for. We HAVE to improve our bench and we need another good arm in the pen. $4 mil goes a long way in doing so.



really want to know what people would prefer we do. Give me specific examples.

Did you want to trade a guy like Sims for Kendrick? How about 3-4 of our top prospects for Samardjiza? Is Josh Johnson a better signing than Floyd? Floyd could EASILY outproduce Johnson this year.
There is nothing wrong with what's happened this off-season. We possess a very young team in every area. Our
franchise is expecting growth in many of them.

Wood in the rotation is likely a big upgrade over Maholm. Beachy can match what Hudson did provided health. Add in the expected growth of Teheran and Minor, and the steadiness of Medlen - how is that not a very good rotation?

Again, please list specifically what YOU wanted done, and what you would have given up to get it done.[/QUOTE]

Boone Logan got 5.5 as a LOOGY. $4mm doesn't go that far.

[skidlee]

Boone Logan got 5.5 as a LOOGY. $4mm doesn't go that far.[/QUOTE]

Boone Logan = Healthy
EOF = Not

[yeezus]

Boone Logan got 5.5 as a LOOGY. $4mm doesn't go that far.

Boone Logan = Healthy
EOF = Not[/QUOTE]

Your point?
I never mentioned EOF.

[skidlee]

Boone Logan = Healthy
EOF = Not

Your point?
I never mentioned EOF.[/QUOTE]


You were implying that EOF wouldn't sign for 4 mill IMO

[skillet]

Dan Connolly ‏@danconnollysun 8m

Those who dont get why Floyd woulda turned down more $, longer deal. Assume if healthy in 2014, he'd get at least Feldman $ (3-30) in 2015

If true and Gavin pitches most of this year and pitches well, perhaps a qualifying offer could be in order next offseason?

[skidlee]

If true and Gavin pitches most of this year and pitches well, perhaps a qualifying offer could be in order next offseason?

If he pitches well enough maybe and thats a BIG maybe. I hope we learned our lesson with Huddy.

But next year FA starting pitchers is pretty good.

[yeezus]

Your point?
I never mentioned EOF.


You were implying that EOF wouldn't sign for 4 mill IMO[/QUOTE]

Well IMO that's not what I was implying.
No one mentioned EOF.
But he won't get 5.5 mil, or even 4.

[skidlee]

You were implying that EOF wouldn't sign for 4 mill IMO

Well IMO that's not what I was implying.
No one mentioned EOF.
But he won't get 5.5 mil, or even 4.[/QUOTE]


Well then what was your point? Boone Logan did get 5.5 million but what does that matter?

[yeezus]

Well IMO that's not what I was implying.
No one mentioned EOF.
But he won't get 5.5 mil, or even 4.


Well then what was your point? Boone Logan did get 5.5 million but what does that matter?[/QUOTE]

He said 4 million goes a long way.
Boone Logan getting 5.5 proves 4 million doesn't really "go a long way."

[skidlee]

Well then what was your point? Boone Logan did get 5.5 million but what does that matter?

He said 4 million goes a long way.
Boone Logan getting 5.5 proves 4 million doesn't really "go a long way."[/QUOTE]

Ok misunderstanding then

[yeezus]

He said 4 million goes a long way.
Boone Logan getting 5.5 proves 4 million doesn't really "go a long way."

Ok misunderstanding then[/QUOTE]

Aren't we supposed to re-sign O'Flaherty?
What are we going to give him? And when is he supposed to be back?

[skidlee]

Ok misunderstanding then

Aren't we supposed to re-sign O'Flaherty?
What are we going to give him? And when is he supposed to be back?[/QUOTE]

well with all the other Loogy's getting signed and/or trade I don't know who else EOF can go to. I was really worried about the Nationals but not now. Not sure when he is going to sign.

I would think in the 4-4.5 with a few incentives maybe.

[goldfly]

I don't get the Floyd signing but

whatever

[skillet]

From MLBTradeRumors:

Before signing with the Braves for $4MM with an additional $4.5MM in incentives, starter Gavin Floyd reportedly turned down a two-year offer from the Orioles that could have reached $20MM in value with incentives, reports Dan Connolly of the Baltimore Sun (Twitter links). In an interesting reversal of the usual bargaining positions of player and team, Connolly writes that Baltimore was not interested in giving a one-year deal to Floyd (who is still working back from Tommy John surgery) because it sought to secure another season at a reasonable price. Meanwhile, the previously-durable righty chose the shorter-term deal, presumably hoping to prove his health and command multiple years when he enters next season's free agent market at age 31.

[ramadon101]

I don't get what naysayers of this signing (or the Braves offseason in general) want Wren to do. The Cubs probably asked for Sims+ or one of Minor or Medlen plus... Epstein and co. are not going to be fleeced and I'm sure shot for the moon which Wren rightfully rejected. Now they have a pitcher who has had at least a track record of being an average SP (and, at times, an above average SP) for a salary that is roughly equivalent to HALF a win in this market. If he hits his incentives and makes the full 8.5m, such that we're paying for a little more than a single win, Floyd will have been worth 2 or more WAR which would make him an absolute bargain. If he tanks and never pitches an inning for us, it's a one time $4m sunk cost but it also gives Wren additional leverage in trade talks if he's still looking at same.

It's a win any way you slice it and it's a good signing in this insane market.

[JohnAdcox]

I don't get what naysayers of this signing (or the Braves offseason in general) want Wren to do. The Cubs probably asked for Sims+ or one of Minor or Medlen plus... Epstein and co. are not going to be fleeced and I'm sure shot for the moon which Wren rightfully rejected. Now they have a pitcher who has had at least a track record of being an average SP (and, at times, an above average SP) for a salary that is roughly equivalent to HALF a win in this market. If he hits his incentives and makes the full 8.5m, such that we're paying for a little more than a single win, Floyd will have been worth 2 or more WAR which would make him an absolute bargain. If he tanks and never pitches an inning for us, it's a one time $4m sunk cost but it also gives Wren additional leverage in trade talks if he's still looking at same.

It's a win any way you slice it and it's a good signing in this insane market.

Well said, mate. It's not the sort of signing that makes us run out and buy tickets, but it could be the time that makes things a little easier come mid season.

[ChapelHillMatt]

People can say what they want but it's not a good sign when Floyd and Gamel are your big offseason signings. Maybe we don't have a lot of open positions but I do think there are a lot of positions that need upgrading. CF and 2B are two giant black holes that come to mind. Catcher could be a weakness as well. We also need an ACE in my opinion. Also everyone knows I love Chris Johnson and think he's underrated by a lot of people here but that's a question mark too. Can he duplicate what he did last year?

[ramadon101]

People can say what they want but it's not a good sign when Floyd and Gamel are your big offseason signings. Maybe we don't have a lot of open positions but I do think there are a lot of positions that need upgrading. CF and 2B are two giant black holes that come to mind. Catcher could be a weakness as well. We also need an ACE in my opinion. Also everyone knows I love Chris Johnson and think he's underrated by a lot of people here but that's a question mark too. Can he duplicate what he did last year?

In a vacuum without context, I would agree with you. However Wren isn't dealing in same, unfortunately. You want an ace- ok - but are you willing to part with Minor and Sims for one? One that would only be here for 2 years before departing via FA because we all know we aren't going to be top bidder? What would you have Wren do with 2B and CF given the fact that we're stuck with big contracts and underperforming players at both positions? We weren't going to sign someone like Cano or Choo, and we have a good alternative in house in the form of La Stella at 2B, and have to hope that BJ - given his age and athleticism - will rebound going forward. He may never live up to his contract, but I don't think BJ replicates 2013 again in 2014. Uggla very well may, but again, we have a more than capable replacement in the form of La Stella (and, if Tommy fails, Pena or Pastornicky).

No CJ will not replicate his 2013, but neither will BJ. If Heyward remains healthy, you can almost assuredly expect an uptick in his production from 2013. On balance, I don't think we lost all that much offensively if Gattis can perform the way I think he can. He's the wildcard, to be honest.

[nsacpi]

People can say what they want but it's not a good sign when Floyd and Gamel are your big offseason signings. Maybe we don't have a lot of open positions but I do think there are a lot of positions that need upgrading. CF and 2B are two giant black holes that come to mind. Catcher could be a weakness as well. We also need an ACE in my opinion. Also everyone knows I love Chris Johnson and think he's underrated by a lot of people here but that's a question mark too. Can he duplicate what he did last year?

The question for me is whether there were outside options that would have improved us enough at CF and 2B to justify the expenditure.

I like Omar Infante a lot and think the contract he signed with KC is a good one for the club. He's going to be a 2-3 WAR player over most of that contract and $8M per year is a reasonable price for that. Whether the Braves should have gone after him depends on how you view him relative to the in-house options. If you think the in-house options will generate zero WAR, then yes you go after Infante. But if you think we can get 2 WAR from some mix of La Stella, Uggla, Pena and Pastornicky, then you are paying too much for that extra win by signing Infante.

The situation in CF is similar. We have some in-house alternatives should BJ fail to bounce back. With Heyward being able to play center that would include corner outfield types in our system (Terdsolavich, Constanza) as well as guys who can play center (Schafer, Cunningham). Between BJ and those options I think we'll get satisfactory production from CF.

This team is strong in six out of eight positions. All it needs is to avoid second and center being the complete black holes they were in 2013.

The other consideration is that Wren appears to have kept some payroll in reserve for mid-season acquisitions. Maybe an upgrade will in fact be needed at second or center. But it could be somewhere else. We shouldn't presume that the upgrade will be needed at second or center. There are always surprises each season--from injuries, from players turning into pumpkins, etc.

[yeezus]

Someone refresh my memory, who did the Cardinals sign last off-season? How about the year they lost Albert?
Fact is, you don't win games in the off-season.
We simply DO NOT have a ton of holes, and the ones we do, are not easy to fix.
I'm still waiting for those complaining to tell me specifically what they wanted done, and what they were willing to give up.
You don't need to sign a big FA or trade all your prospects for a player to have a good off-season and following season.
We have a really young squad, most of the guys from our own farm. That's how you sustain success.

[NYCBrave]

People can say what they want but it's not a good sign when Floyd and Gamel are your big offseason signings. Maybe we don't have a lot of open positions but I do think there are a lot of positions that need upgrading. CF and 2B are two giant black holes that come to mind. Catcher could be a weakness as well. We also need an ACE in my opinion. Also everyone knows I love Chris Johnson and think he's underrated by a lot of people here but that's a question mark too. Can he duplicate what he did last year?

This post doesn't make any sense given the current situation of our roster. Can you please provide solutions as how you would fix the problems you named?

[ChapelHillMatt]

I really don't have any (we have bad contracts that are hard to move). I'm just saying there are reasons to be concerned about this team this year. People keep acting like everything is fine and we are so loaded we don't need to do anything. I just don't believe that's the case. I think we have a good team but not a great team. I also believe we are built for the regular season more than we are the playoffs.

[yeezus]

This post doesn't make any sense given the current situation of our roster. Can you please provide solutions as how you would fix the problems you named?

No one will answer this question. They'll say Floyd makes no sense (when he makes a TON of sense) and that we needed something bigger.
Well, WHAT, people? What did you want, and what would you have given up in terms of money or prospects?
I'll say it again, we don't have many open spots in our lineup.
Obviously an upgrade at 2B would have been nice. I'm sure it was looked in to. I'm also pretty confident the asking price for a guy like Howie Kendrick would have been absurdly high for the level of player he is. Would you rather have TLS and Sims, or Kendrick? What if Kendrick came here and became a dud while TLS and Sims blossomed? The same people calling for Wren to take more action would trash him for that trade.

It seems like people think if we want someone, another team will basically give them to us.

I tried to use reason in why Wren ditched the Samardjiza thought and moved on to Floyd. The Cubs don't have to deal JS. If we waited them out and they don't lower their asking price, then we also would have lost out on the opportunity to add a 3 WAR pitcher for 4-8.5 million (which is a steal). Then we'd be left with worse options, worse depth, more complaints.

[yeezus]

I really don't have any (we have bad contracts that are hard to move). I'm just saying there are reasons to be concerned about this team this year. People keep acting like everything is fine and we are so loaded we don't need to do anything. I just don't believe that's the case. I think we have a good team but not a great team. I also believe we are built for the regular season more than we are the playoffs.

Show me a team with ZERO question marks.
There was no shot of us changing CFers or doing anything with that position.
The cost for an upgrade at 2B was likely too high.
Our whole roster is young and blossoming. Teheran took major strides last year, as did Minor.
What would you have traded for that ace you so badly desire?
The franchise, giving their financial position, felt it was best to ride our homegrown guys like Minor, Teheran, and Medlen and hope one of them turns in to a shutdown guy.
We have a great, super young rotation.

A lot of teams would be envious of the amount of young talent we have.

[ChapelHillMatt]

I said it wasn't a good sign when Floyd is all you can do, I didn't say it was a signing that made no sense. It's the situation we have put ourselves in and it's a signing that is being used for depth more than anything. It makes sense when you look at the trade market out there. I agree giving up a ton of prospects and overpaying would be a bad idea but that doesn't change the needs we have or the type of year we'll have with this current roster. We are in a tough division and are hamstrung by bad contracts. I'm concerned.

[ChapelHillMatt]

The rotation will be fine during the regular season but the problem is what happens in October. What do we have to match up with other teams Aces. Where is the guy going in game 1 and 2 that can completely shut down the opponent? Same thing with the offense, we still have too many players who strikeout. Where is the ability to manufacture runs? This is pretty much the same team we had last year. Good solid team? Sure. Where have we improved that has given us the ability to take the next step? Again I'm not blaming Wren for his inactivity but I do blame him for the bad contracts he's handed out in previous years. It's hurting us right now.

[nsacpi]

It is worth remembering that John Lackey was one of the Red Sox' key pitchers in their march to a title. He was coming off TJ surgery. And before that he was almost run out of town because of perceived attitudinal issues.

In putting together a winning team, you have to take some risks. You try to be smart about them. And you need to keep your fingers crossed because some help from Lady Luck never hurts.

[yeezus]

I said it wasn't a good sign when Floyd is all you can do, I didn't say it was a signing that made no sense. It's the situation we have put ourselves in and it's a signing that is being used for depth more than anything. It makes sense when you look at the trade market out there. I agree giving up a ton of prospects and overpaying would be a bad idea but that doesn't change the needs we have or the type of year we'll have with this current roster. We are in a tough division and are hamstrung by bad contracts. I'm concerned.

Tough division? The Nats are the only good team. Everyone else really stinks.
Floyd wasn't "all we could do," it was the move that made the most sense. We COULD have dealt a ton of prospects for JS or DP, but chose not to, and for good reason. We have ton of valuable SP waiting to take the next step.
This team will be very good this year, as long as Minor and Teheran don't regress majorly (no reason to believe they will; in fact, they likely progress further).
You have no idea what type of year we will have with the current roster. Actually, we have some idea: it's likely 90+ wins. If Teheran and Minor continue to improve, we will be back to 95+.

The whole "built for the playoffs" thing is weak. If you have a hot pitcher or hitter(s) entering the playoffs, you can win it all. We're built fine.

[yeezus]

It is worth remembering that John Lackey was one of the Red Sox' key pitchers in their march to a title. He was coming off TJ surgery. And before that he was almost run out of town because of perceived attitudinal issues.

In putting together a winning team, you have to take some risks. You try to be smart about them. And you need to keep your fingers crossed because some help from Lady Luck never hurts.

And he received a large contract and was a dud until last year.

[yeezus]

The rotation will be fine during the regular season but the problem is what happens in October. What do we have to match up with other teams Aces. Where is the guy going in game 1 and 2 that can completely shut down the opponent? Same thing with the offense, we still have too many players who strikeout. Where is the ability to manufacture runs? This is pretty much the same team we had last year. Good solid team? Sure. Where have we improved that has given us the ability to take the next step? Again I'm not blaming Wren for his inactivity but I do blame him for the bad contracts he's handed out in previous years. It's hurting us right now.

Teheran or Minor could become the guy this year that can go toe-to-toe with anyone else.
The Cardinals rode Wacha in the playoffs last year. Who's to say Teheran or Wood can't do something similar?

[yeezus]

And Wren's bad contracts are more than balanced out by the fact that we have a ton of young, affordable players through drafts/signings that are on the ML roster. Freeman, Heyward, JUp, CJ, Simmons, Gattis, Wood, Teheran, Minor, Medlen, Beachy are all below-market guys.

[ChapelHillMatt]

The whole "built for the playoffs" thing is weak. If you have a hot pitcher or hitter(s) entering the playoffs, you can win it all. We're built fine.

Then we disagree, I think this is a poorly built roster for the playoffs. This team has to rely on the 3 run homer, they don't have the ability to manufacture runs. We agree this team will win a lot of games in the regular season, that's not the issue. The playoffs are a different animal altogether. People say all you have to do is get hot but why is it throughout our history we don't have that hot streak while other teams do? Maybe it's something we are doing wrong.

[Enscheff]

No one will answer this question. They'll say Floyd makes no sense (when he makes a TON of sense) and that we needed something bigger.
Well, WHAT, people? What did you want, and what would you have given up in terms of money or prospects?
I'll say it again, we don't have many open spots in our lineup.
Obviously an upgrade at 2B would have been nice. I'm sure it was looked in to. I'm also pretty confident the asking price for a guy like Howie Kendrick would have been absurdly high for the level of player he is. Would you rather have TLS and Sims, or Kendrick? What if Kendrick came here and became a dud while TLS and Sims blossomed? The same people calling for Wren to take more action would trash him for that trade.

It seems like people think if we want someone, another team will basically give them to us.

I tried to use reason in why Wren ditched the Samardjiza thought and moved on to Floyd. The Cubs don't have to deal JS. If we waited them out and they don't lower their asking price, then we also would have lost out on the opportunity to add a 3 WAR pitcher for 4-8.5 million (which is a steal). Then we'd be left with worse options, worse depth, more complaints.

Fine, I'll bite. I would have actually FIXED some of the areas of need rather than made them worse.

Chavez should have been signed rather than Floyd AND Gamel. Chavez would have provided LHed power off the bench, plus an insurance policy against CJ regressing and Freeman getting hurt.

I would have traded for Kendrick. Failing that I would go into the season with the current jumble of mediocrity currently in place. It is obvious nobody wanted Uggla for any price, so it appears trading him is impossible.

I would not have signed Ventersd OR EOF. Why sign these guys that aren't healthy? Sign a LHer for the pen that can actually break camp with the club.

I also actually do my job and get involved in the Fister sweepstakes. There is no way Wren did his due diligence while missing that opportunity.

Then I'd wait until late in the offseason when one of the many setup men on the FA market are sitting around to be signed for half price. If a starter is also sitting there without a home I snatch him up too.

[nsacpi]

Then we disagree, I think this is a poorly built roster for the playoffs. This team has to rely on the 3 run homer, they don't have the ability to manufacture runs. We agree this team will win a lot of games in the regular season, that's not the issue. The playoffs are a different animal altogether. People say all you have to do is get hot but why is it throughout our history we don't have that hot streak while other teams do? Maybe it's something we are doing wrong.

I think both power pitching and power hitting are part of the secret sauce for the playoffs. Detroit is a team optimized for the playoffs. But as we have seen there is no guarantee. Optimizing a team for the playoffs just moves the needle slightly in one direction. Getting hot and lucky are also important. The playoffs really are a lottery.

With respect to the Braves, I think we have generally not been optimized for the playoffs and also a bit unlucky. We have had some great non-power pitchers. Smoltz has been the exception. But guys like Glavine and Maddux do not dominate the way a Randy Johnson or a Curt Schilling can. And the current batch of starting pitchers doesn't have a dominant ace or two.

What to do about it? I think the right approach is to be patient and keep working at developing homegrown aces. They don't grow on trees. But we have quite a few young pitchers both on the farm and in the majors who could become aces. While waiting on that, Wren has to continue taking steps to make the team better. Many of them seem like baby steps. But you have to stick with it.

[yeezus]

Fine, I'll bite. I would have actually FIXED some of the areas of need rather than made them worse.

Chavez should have been signed rather than Floyd AND Gamel. Chavez would have provided LHed power off the bench, plus an insurance policy against CJ regressing and Freeman getting hurt.

I would have traded for Kendrick. Failing that I would go into the season with the current jumble of mediocrity currently in place. It is obvious nobody wanted Uggla for any price, so it appears trading him is impossible.

I would not have signed Ventersd OR EOF. Why sign these guys that aren't healthy? Sign a LHer for the pen that can actually break camp with the club.

I also actually do my job and get involved in the Fister sweepstakes. There is no way Wren did his due diligence while missing that opportunity.

Then I'd wait until late in the offseason when one of the many setup men on the FA market are sitting around to be signed for half price. If a starter is also sitting there without a home I snatch him up too.

Do you know what Chavez is going to get? I would have liked him, too. But, personally, I find Floyd to be a higher upside signing.

What would you have traded for Kendrick? Anything they wanted? A mid-payroll team should not trade young players with good potential (esp. pitchers) for older, more expensive players.

What LH would you have signed? Boone Logan for 5.5 per? JP Howell and the contract he got? Wren has to take some risks. I think his risks have been good and calculated.

The Fister thing is curious, but obviously a lot of teams would have liked to jump at that deal. It seemed to have happened quickly. Detroit got fleeced, but a lot of other GMs "didn't do their job," I guess.

[MadduxFanII]

In the 22 years I've been a Braves fan, I've seen us fall in the playoffs with just about every sort of team. We've lost with rotations stuffed with aces and shaky bullpens. We've lost with decent rotations and outstanding bullpens. We've lost with outstanding rotations and outstanding bullpens. We've lost with outstanding pitching staffs and poor offenses. We've lost with fair pitching staffs and outstanding offenses. We've lost with offenses that hit the ball out of the park and with offenses that drew lots of walks and offenses that struck out a ton and offenses that made a ton of contact and offenses that scored lots of runs and offenses that scuffled. We've lost with great defenses and average defenses and mediocre defenses and poor defenses.

We've had great, 100+ win teams fall in the LDS (2002, 2003). We've had extraordinary, amazing teams fall in the LCS (1993, 1998). We've lost with a newly minted Hall of Fame manager. We've lost with teams assembled by a future Hall of Fame executive.

The lesson here is simple: the only thing you can do to improve your chances in October is to improve your team overall, and even then you're just making a marginal change in your odds. Since there are rarely mediocre teams in the playoffs (that .500 Padres team a few years ago notwithstanding), a postseason series is usually a battle between two reasonably good teams. And when two reasonably good teams play five games, picking the one that's going to win three games is largely just a matter of guess work.

There's no magic October Formula(TM). You want top-notch, shutdown aces? Been there, done that, witnessed the heartbreak. My namesake headed our rotation for a decade and is a couple months away from being the least controversial Hall of Famer in recent memory. One title from him. And he was backed by what was arguably the greatest rotation in the history of the game.

You want David Price? Sure, we all do. He's a great pitcher. And since he became a starter, Tampa has never advanced beyond the LDS.

In fact, let's go big and give up the farm for Clayton Kershaw. He'll guarantee a deep postseason run. Except since becoming a starter for LA, the Dodgers are 2-2 in his postseason series and he has a 1-3 record and a 4.23 ERA.

Put simply, there's nothing you can do in the off-season that will significantly affect your odds of winning a postseason series, save improving your team to the point where you can reasonably expect to make a postseason series. If you're already in that position, then you, as a general manager, just have to accept that what happens in October is out of your hands, unless you're capable of assembling a true, 1998 Yankees-esque juggernaut.

[nsacpi]

Fine, I'll bite. I would have actually FIXED some of the areas of need rather than made them worse.

Chavez should have been signed rather than Floyd AND Gamel. Chavez would have provided LHed power off the bench, plus an insurance policy against CJ regressing and Freeman getting hurt.

I would have traded for Kendrick. Failing that I would go into the season with the current jumble of mediocrity currently in place. It is obvious nobody wanted Uggla for any price, so it appears trading him is impossible.

I would not have signed Ventersd OR EOF. Why sign these guys that aren't healthy? Sign a LHer for the pen that can actually break camp with the club.

I also actually do my job and get involved in the Fister sweepstakes. There is no way Wren did his due diligence while missing that opportunity.

Then I'd wait until late in the offseason when one of the many setup men on the FA market are sitting around to be signed for half price. If a starter is also sitting there without a home I snatch him up too.

I agree with some of your points. I would take sending resources on Chavez over signing Floyd and Gamels. But I find it hard to be overly critical of Wren for not signing Chavez. The reason for this is we simply don't know how much Chavez values playing in Arizona where he has his house. For some players this is very important. Chavez might not really available as long as the Diamondbacks make an offer he regards as fair.

Similarly, while I agree that Kendrick would be a good trade target I can't get exercised over not getting him because we simply don't know the price. Now if he had been traded to some other team for peanuts I would have thought Wren missed an opportunity. The only transaction this off-season that had that element to it was the Fister trade (and even that one is mysterious in terms of whether Detroit cast a wide net in trying to find trade partners).

[Enscheff]

Do you know what Chavez is going to get? I would have liked him, too. But, personally, I find Floyd to be a higher upside signing.

What would you have traded for Kendrick? Anything they wanted? A mid-payroll team should not trade young players with good potential (esp. pitchers) for older, more expensive players.

What LH would you have signed? Boone Logan for 5.5 per? JP Howell and the contract he got? Wren has to take some risks. I think his risks have been good and calculated.

The Fister thing is curious, but obviously a lot of teams would have liked to jump at that deal. It seemed to have happened quickly. Detroit got fleeced, but a lot of other GMs "didn't do their job," I guess.

I would have traded anyone not on the MLB roster and not named Sims for Kendrick. If they wanted CB there wouldn't have been much else going along with him.

How about Thornton who is about to sign for $7M over 2 years? Wouldn't you rather have him in the pen NOW rather than waiting for Venters and EOF to be healthy? There is talk of Wren giving EOF more than Thorton is making per year...ludicrous!

I don't know what Chavez will cost, but I bet he could have been had for Gamel + Floyd money, and he would actually suit up and play for the Braves. Floyd MIGHT make 20 starts, and Gamel MIGHT not even make it out of AAA.

The point is the Braves had 4 areas of need, and Wren has fixed none of them while wasting all available monetary resources. I may not have been able to fix all 4 areas, but you can bet your ass I would have fixed 2-3 of them properly and then went with internal options as my plan b for the areas I couldn't solve. I would NOT have wasted all my free cash and came away with more question marks than answers.

[Enscheff]

I agree with some of your points. I would take sending resources on Chavez over signing Floyd and Gamels. But I find it hard to be overly critical of Wren for not signing Chavez. The reason for this is we simply don't know how much Chavez values playing in Arizona where he has his house. For some players this is very important. Chavez might not really available as long as the Diamondbacks make an offer he regards as fair.

Similarly, while I agree that Kendrick would be a good trade target I can't get exercised over not getting him because we simply don't know the price. Now if he had been traded to some other team for peanuts I would have thought Wren missed an opportunity. The only transaction this off-season that had that element to it was the Fister trade (and even that one is mysterious in terms of whether Detroit cast a wide net in trying to find trade partners).

There are other players that could have helped on the bench. A guy that could play CF would have been equally useful to keep Schafer off the team.

Fact of the matter is Wren solved ZERO of the issues this team had this offseason. None.

[Heyward]

If he pitches well enough maybe and thats a BIG maybe. I hope we learned our lesson with Huddy.

But next year FA starting pitchers is pretty good.

We're not gonna spend much in FA on pitchers, just not the Braves morale.

Especially with a lot of younger guys ready in the coming years.

[nsacpi]

There are other players that could have helped on the bench. A guy that could play CF would have been equally useful to keep Schafer off the team.

Fact of the matter is Wren solved ZERO of the issues this team had this offseason. None.

There I disagree. I know you have a low opinion of Schafer. But I don't see center as a big problem requiring an external solution. BJ is likely to rebound somewhat. If not Heyward can play center, which brings into play corner outfielders (Terdoslavich, Constanza) as potential solutions. And then we have a couple other guys who can play center, Schafer and Cunningham.

I also don't think Wren has done nothing this off-season. I see value in both bringing back Venters and signing Floyd. There are a couple other under-the-radar signings (Luis Vasquez and Yunesky Maya) that I like as well. We all like the splashy moves like the Justin Upton trade. But assembling a winning team also requires a constant series of little moves. Most of them don't pan out, but some turn out to be quite important.

[gcbraves]

In the 22 years I've been a Braves fan, I've seen us fall in the playoffs with just about every sort of team. We've lost with rotations stuffed with aces and shaky bullpens. We've lost with decent rotations and outstanding bullpens. We've lost with outstanding rotations and outstanding bullpens. We've lost with outstanding pitching staffs and poor offenses. We've lost with fair pitching staffs and outstanding offenses. We've lost with offenses that hit the ball out of the park and with offenses that drew lots of walks and offenses that struck out a ton and offenses that made a ton of contact and offenses that scored lots of runs and offenses that scuffled. We've lost with great defenses and average defenses and mediocre defenses and poor defenses.

We've had great, 100+ win teams fall in the LDS (2002, 2003). We've had extraordinary, amazing teams fall in the LCS (1993, 1998). We've lost with a newly minted Hall of Fame manager. We've lost with teams assembled by a future Hall of Fame executive.

The lesson here is simple: the only thing you can do to improve your chances in October is to improve your team overall, and even then you're just making a marginal change in your odds. Since there are rarely mediocre teams in the playoffs (that .500 Padres team a few years notwithstanding), a postseason series is usually a battle between two reasonably good teams. And when two reasonably good teams play five games, picking the one that's going to win three games is largely just a matter of guess work.

There's no magic October Formula(TM). You want top-notch, shutdown aces? Been there, done that, witnessed the heartbreak. My namesake headed our rotation for a decade and is a couple months away from being the least controversial Hall of Famer in recent memory. One title from him. And he was backed by what was arguably the greatest rotation in the history of the game.

You want David Price? Sure, we all do. He's a great pitcher. And since he became a starter, Tampa has never advanced beyond the LDS.

In fact, let's go big and give up the farm for Clayton Kershaw. He'll guarantee a deep postseason run. Except since becoming a starter for LA, the Dodgers are 2-2 in his postseason series and he has 1-3 record and a 4.23 ERA.

Put simply, there's nothing you can do in the off-season that will significantly affect your odds of winning a postseason series, save improving your team to the point where you can reasonably expect to make a postseason series. If you're already in that position, then you, as a general manager, just have to accept that what happens in October is out of your hands, unless you're capable of assembling a true, 1998 Yankees-esque juggernaut.

One of the greatest posts I have ever read, IMO. Wish I had written it!

[thethe]

I applaud Wren for not making any big moves. All the talent we need to win a world series is already on the team. Making moves just for the appearance of them is just foolish. There is no way BJ is going to be that bad next year. There is no way that any second baseman we put out there will be as awful as Uggla last year. Can Heyward possibly get two more freak injuries next year? The rotation is young, heck the WHOLE DAMN TEAM is young. I just don't see why Wren should be doing anything.

[Enscheff]

There I disagree. I know you have a low opinion of Schafer. But I don't see center as a big problem requiring an external solution. BJ is likely to rebound somewhat. If not Heyward can play center, which brings into play corner outfielders (Terdoslavich, Constanza) as potential solutions. And then we have a couple other guys who can play center, Schafer and Cunningham.

I also don't think Wren has done nothing this off-season. I see value in both bringing back Venters and signing Floyd. There are a couple other under-the-radar signings (Luis Vasquez and Yunesky Maya) that I like as well. We all like the splashy moves like the Justin Upton trade. But assembling a winning team also requires a constant series of little moves. Most of them don't pan out, but some turn out to be quite important.

I meant a bench bat that can play CF, not someone to replace BJ. If he doesn't bounce back the Braves are in big trouble. The Braves are going to start losing their cheap offensive contributors that covered up BJ's suckfest season when they leave as FAs, and having money tied up in a black hole CFer is really going to hurt.

[Heyward]

Agree with others.

What do we really NEED to do.

The cost of Price or JS is deep, Theo and Jed most likely want at least one of Sims/Minor/Julio for JS i would guess. And more.

Price probably two of them.

Chavez would be great, but no one knows if he just wants to stay with Arizona.

I would like Kendrick too but at what cost?

To the LH RP, Howell and Logan both got pretty big contracts.

SP wise, there is no reason to spend bank on one.

And im just not sure what more we could do.

And yes, the playoffs are a freaking crapshoot, once you get in, anything can happen.

Minor or Julio could develop into an ace, or some hitters could go nuts.

Venters and EOF are risks if we bring back EOF, but given the contracts others got, i dont mind it.

Im just not sure what Wren should do.

I dont see 4 HUGE holes.

I see 1-2.

[nsacpi]

The other issue that needs to be acknowledged is the 2015 budget crunch, which is laid out in another thread. This is putting Wren in a position where there is a strong preference to bring in players on a one-year deal. This is not necessarily a bad thing if it keeps us away from Boone Logan or even Matt Thornton-type deals.

I actually like the strategy of signing or bringing back some guys who are coming off TJ surgery. We want our best team to be out there in September and October, not necessarily in April and May.

[Heyward]

I meant a bench bat that can play CF, not someone to replace BJ. If he doesn't bounce back the Braves are in big trouble. The Braves are going to start losing their cheap offensive contributors that covered up BJ's suckfest season when they leave as FAs, and having money tied up in a black hole CFer is really going to hurt.

1- Uggla's deal is off the books in a few years when it's time to pay some of the younger players.

2- It takes two to tango, it's already been reported they tried to sign some of them to extensions but nothing happened.

So thats a load of crap.

BJ's deal wont affect that unless all of them command 15-20 million a year.

[JohnAdcox]

In the 22 years I've been a Braves fan, I've seen us fall in the playoffs with just about every sort of team. We've lost with rotations stuffed with aces and shaky bullpens. We've lost with decent rotations and outstanding bullpens. We've lost with outstanding rotations and outstanding bullpens. We've lost with outstanding pitching staffs and poor offenses. We've lost with fair pitching staffs and outstanding offenses. We've lost with offenses that hit the ball out of the park and with offenses that drew lots of walks and offenses that struck out a ton and offenses that made a ton of contact and offenses that scored lots of runs and offenses that scuffled. We've lost with great defenses and average defenses and mediocre defenses and poor defenses.

We've had great, 100+ win teams fall in the LDS (2002, 2003). We've had extraordinary, amazing teams fall in the LCS (1993, 1998). We've lost with a newly minted Hall of Fame manager. We've lost with teams assembled by a future Hall of Fame executive.

The lesson here is simple: the only thing you can do to improve your chances in October is to improve your team overall, and even then you're just making a marginal change in your odds. Since there are rarely mediocre teams in the playoffs (that .500 Padres team a few years ago notwithstanding), a postseason series is usually a battle between two reasonably good teams. And when two reasonably good teams play five games, picking the one that's going to win three games is largely just a matter of guess work.

There's no magic October Formula(TM). You want top-notch, shutdown aces? Been there, done that, witnessed the heartbreak. My namesake headed our rotation for a decade and is a couple months away from being the least controversial Hall of Famer in recent memory. One title from him. And he was backed by what was arguably the greatest rotation in the history of the game.

You want David Price? Sure, we all do. He's a great pitcher. And since he became a starter, Tampa has never advanced beyond the LDS.

In fact, let's go big and give up the farm for Clayton Kershaw. He'll guarantee a deep postseason run. Except since becoming a starter for LA, the Dodgers are 2-2 in his postseason series and he has a 1-3 record and a 4.23 ERA.

Put simply, there's nothing you can do in the off-season that will significantly affect your odds of winning a postseason series, save improving your team to the point where you can reasonably expect to make a postseason series. If you're already in that position, then you, as a general manager, just have to accept that what happens in October is out of your hands, unless you're capable of assembling a true, 1998 Yankees-esque juggernaut.


No more calls. We have a winner. No one ever needs to post again. This will never, ever be topped.

[GovClintonTyree]

In the 22 years I've been a Braves fan, I've seen us fall in the playoffs with just about every sort of team. We've lost with rotations stuffed with aces and shaky bullpens. We've lost with decent rotations and outstanding bullpens. We've lost with outstanding rotations and outstanding bullpens. We've lost with outstanding pitching staffs and poor offenses. We've lost with fair pitching staffs and outstanding offenses. We've lost with offenses that hit the ball out of the park and with offenses that drew lots of walks and offenses that struck out a ton and offenses that made a ton of contact and offenses that scored lots of runs and offenses that scuffled. We've lost with great defenses and average defenses and mediocre defenses and poor defenses.

We've had great, 100+ win teams fall in the LDS (2002, 2003). We've had extraordinary, amazing teams fall in the LCS (1993, 1998). We've lost with a newly minted Hall of Fame manager. We've lost with teams assembled by a future Hall of Fame executive.

The lesson here is simple: the only thing you can do to improve your chances in October is to improve your team overall, and even then you're just making a marginal change in your odds. Since there are rarely mediocre teams in the playoffs (that .500 Padres team a few years ago notwithstanding), a postseason series is usually a battle between two reasonably good teams. And when two reasonably good teams play five games, picking the one that's going to win three games is largely just a matter of guess work.

There's no magic October Formula(TM). You want top-notch, shutdown aces? Been there, done that, witnessed the heartbreak. My namesake headed our rotation for a decade and is a couple months away from being the least controversial Hall of Famer in recent memory. One title from him. And he was backed by what was arguably the greatest rotation in the history of the game.

You want David Price? Sure, we all do. He's a great pitcher. And since he became a starter, Tampa has never advanced beyond the LDS.

In fact, let's go big and give up the farm for Clayton Kershaw. He'll guarantee a deep postseason run. Except since becoming a starter for LA, the Dodgers are 2-2 in his postseason series and he has a 1-3 record and a 4.23 ERA.

Put simply, there's nothing you can do in the off-season that will significantly affect your odds of winning a postseason series, save improving your team to the point where you can reasonably expect to make a postseason series. If you're already in that position, then you, as a general manager, just have to accept that what happens in October is out of your hands, unless you're capable of assembling a true, 1998 Yankees-esque juggernaut.

Nails it.

I remember Schuerholz taking Gary Sheffield out for lunch after The Kerry Wood game/season and asking if, given Shef's World Series experience, he (Schuerholz) was doing something wrong. Shef said, no, man, it's just a crapshoot.

After the last 25 years, we're due some good karma.

[Enscheff]

The other issue that needs to be acknowledged is the 2015 budget crunch, which is laid out in another thread. This is putting Wren in a position where there is a strong preference to bring in players on a one-year deal. This is not necessarily a bad thing if it keeps us away from Boone Logan or even Matt Thornton-type deals.

I actually like the strategy of signing or bringing back some guys who are coming off TJ surgery. We want our best team to be out there in September and October, not necessarily in April and May.

You know as well as anyone that Medlen and Kimbrel are probably gone next offseason, shaving $20M off that list. Sims or Hale will likely be ready to step into the rotation, and there is no way the Braves are paying a closer $11M for 60 innings, no matter how dominant those innings may be.

[nsacpi]

You know as well as anyone that Medlen and Kimbrel are probably gone next offseason, shaving $20M off that list. Sims or Hale will likely be ready to step into the rotation, and there is no way the Braves are paying a closer $11M for 60 innings, no matter how dominant those innings may be.

Might happen. I think it is more likely we keep Kimbrel for year five. I don't see us paying him $14M or whatever for year six. Hale profiles more as a reliever but he's got an outside chance as a starter. Sims will probably not zip through the system that fast. I think he will join the rotation in 2016.

[NinersSBChamps]

I applaud Wren for not making any big moves. All the talent we need to win a world series is already on the team. Making moves just for the appearance of them is just foolish. There is no way BJ is going to be that bad next year. There is no way that any second baseman we put out there will be as awful as Uggla last year. Can Heyward possibly get two more freak injuries next year? The rotation is young, heck the WHOLE DAMN TEAM is young. I just don't see why Wren should be doing anything.

Why can't BJ be awful again? Same with Uggla. The whole "if" factor for the Braves has gotten old. If so and so rebounds from last season....

Once again there are too many "what if" scenarios with the Braves heading into the season.

CF, 2B, C, and back end rotation are all areas of concern.

[gtcway]

In the 22 years I've been a Braves fan, I've seen us fall in the playoffs with just about every sort of team. We've lost with rotations stuffed with aces and shaky bullpens. We've lost with decent rotations and outstanding bullpens. We've lost with outstanding rotations and outstanding bullpens. We've lost with outstanding pitching staffs and poor offenses. We've lost with fair pitching staffs and outstanding offenses. We've lost with offenses that hit the ball out of the park and with offenses that drew lots of walks and offenses that struck out a ton and offenses that made a ton of contact and offenses that scored lots of runs and offenses that scuffled. We've lost with great defenses and average defenses and mediocre defenses and poor defenses.

We've had great, 100+ win teams fall in the LDS (2002, 2003). We've had extraordinary, amazing teams fall in the LCS (1993, 1998). We've lost with a newly minted Hall of Fame manager. We've lost with teams assembled by a future Hall of Fame executive.

The lesson here is simple: the only thing you can do to improve your chances in October is to improve your team overall, and even then you're just making a marginal change in your odds. Since there are rarely mediocre teams in the playoffs (that .500 Padres team a few years ago notwithstanding), a postseason series is usually a battle between two reasonably good teams. And when two reasonably good teams play five games, picking the one that's going to win three games is largely just a matter of guess work.

There's no magic October Formula(TM). You want top-notch, shutdown aces? Been there, done that, witnessed the heartbreak. My namesake headed our rotation for a decade and is a couple months away from being the least controversial Hall of Famer in recent memory. One title from him. And he was backed by what was arguably the greatest rotation in the history of the game.

You want David Price? Sure, we all do. He's a great pitcher. And since he became a starter, Tampa has never advanced beyond the LDS.

In fact, let's go big and give up the farm for Clayton Kershaw. He'll guarantee a deep postseason run. Except since becoming a starter for LA, the Dodgers are 2-2 in his postseason series and he has a 1-3 record and a 4.23 ERA.

Put simply, there's nothing you can do in the off-season that will significantly affect your odds of winning a postseason series, save improving your team to the point where you can reasonably expect to make a postseason series. If you're already in that position, then you, as a general manager, just have to accept that what happens in October is out of your hands, unless you're capable of assembling a true, 1998 Yankees-esque juggernaut.

You know how most forums have a "Read this before posting" post stickied at the top of the page? This should be that post for Chop Country!

[weso1]

Why can't BJ be awful again? Same with Uggla. The whole "if" factor for the Braves has gotten old. If so and so rebounds from last season....

Once again there are too many "what if" scenarios with the Braves heading into the season.

CF, 2B, C, and back end rotation are all areas of concern.

I think we have our catcher. I don't see what the issue is there. I think LaStella gives us a nice replacement option for Uggla. I don't see the issue with the back end of the rotation. I think a lot of teams would be happy to have our #4 and #5 starters. CF is definitely a big question mark, but we're stuck with it for now. I guess Schafer isn't a horrible option as a back up, but we definitely need BJ to improve.

[emk418]

Why can't BJ be awful again? Same with Uggla. The whole "if" factor for the Braves has gotten old. If so and so rebounds from last season....

Once again there are too many "what if" scenarios with the Braves heading into the season.

CF, 2B, C, and back end rotation are all areas of concern.

I have some hope in BJ bouncing back to a certain level. But Uggla has been in a steep decline every year here. He's not turning that around here.

[mfree80]

Every team has areas of concern, and those who address them by throwing out big contracts, don't often win championships... sometimes, but more often not.

I say we cheer for the moves to turn to gold, and stop attacking everything FW and FG do until they actually play the games.

[GovClintonTyree]

Novel idea.

There's not much to be done, frankly.

[emk418]

Every team has areas of concern, and those who address them by throwing out big contracts, don't often win championships... sometimes, but more often not.

I say we cheer for the moves to turn to gold, and stop attacking everything FW and FG do until they actually play the games.

Agreed. But there's also a big difference between "attacking" a move Wren makes and simply not agreeing or liking it and posting your opinion on it. There's absolutely a line that can be crossed but there's nothing wrong with saying you don't like the move and listing the reasons why.

I love Frank Wren. I think he's a very good GM but I just personally don't like the move. Definitely not a terrible signing but personally would have picked up someone we know can contribute.

[NinersSBChamps]

I think we have our catcher. I don't see what the issue is there. I think LaStella gives us a nice replacement option for Uggla. I don't see the issue with the back end of the rotation. I think a lot of teams would be happy to have our #4 and #5 starters. CF is definitely a big question mark, but we're stuck with it for now. I guess Schafer isn't a horrible option as a back up, but we definitely need BJ to improve.

Our back end rotation includes two guys coming off tommy john. We have 4 healthy starters at this point.

[clvclv]

Our back end rotation includes two guys coming off tommy john. We have 4 healthy starters at this point.

You really want to complain about that???

The Yankees just spent $299 million and the back end of their rotation includes David Phelps, Pineda trying to return from much more serious shoulder surgery, and Adam Warren...AND their current Opening Day 2B and 3B are Brian Roberts and Kelly Johnson.

We have problems? Seriously???

[emk418]

Our back end rotation includes two guys coming off tommy john. We have 4 healthy starters at this point.

I guess I'm being too optimistic but I'm not overly concerned about Beachy.

[weso1]

Our back end rotation includes two guys coming off tommy john. We have 4 healthy starters at this point.

Beachy is the only one in our initial starting 5 coming off TJ, and that was way back in June 2012. Floyd is really a #6 starter for us who in a best case scenario will eventually replace a struggling starter or when one gets hurt.

[Heyward]

Agreed. But there's also a big difference between "attacking" a move Wren makes and simply not agreeing or liking it and posting your opinion on it. There's absolutely a line that can be crossed but there's nothing wrong with saying you don't like the move and listing the reasons why.

I love Frank Wren. I think he's a very good GM but I just personally don't like the move. Definitely not a terrible signing but personally would have picked up someone we know can contribute.

Have you seen the report of what the Cubs are asking for JS are now?

What do u want him to do?

That for Price is actually intriguing.

[tvsportscaster]

Have you seen the report of what the Cubs are asking for JS are now?

What do u want him to do?

That for Price is actually intriguing.

Yeah, but I think that price will actually come down for JS when the Cubs realize he won't resign, as for Price, if that's whattthe Brave have to give up, I'd do that in a heartbeat. You can have room for only so many prospects. Part of what prospects are for is do be as used as trade bait to make your Major League roster better. Frank Wren has been drawing a little criticism and even from columnists and that criticism is certainly warranted. He has had a horrendous off season.

[Heyward]

Yeah, but I think that price will actually come down for JS when the Cubs realize he won't resign, as for Price, if that's whattthe Brave have to give up, I'd do that in a heartbeat. You can have room for only so many prospects. Part of what prospects are for is do be as used as trade bait to make your Major League roster better. Frank Wren has been drawing a little criticism and even from columnists and that criticism is certainly warranted. He has had a horrendous off season.

Just saw that Sims would probably have to be involved too.

So Wood, Sims, CB, and one more for Price.

ANd no, Wren hasnt had a horrendous offseason given we didnt have to do much, so wrong there.

And while it will most likely come down, it will still cost alot for JS.

[tvsportscaster]

Just saw that Sims would probably have to be involved too.

So Wood, Sims, CB, and one more for Price.

ANd no, Wren hasnt had a horrendous offseason given we didnt have to do much, so wrong there.

And while it will most likely come down, it will still cost alot for JS.

We'll agree to disagree about Wren having a horrendous off-season. Only thing I know is they had 25 extra million from the new National TV deal and he hasn't done squat with it. If everyone is content with first round playoff exits, then yeah, Wren has had a remarkable off season

[emk418]

Have you seen the report of what the Cubs are asking for JS are now?

What do u want him to do?

That for Price is actually intriguing.

Yea what Bowman is reporting it would take for Price is actually very intriguing.

[Heyward]

We'll agree to disagree about Wren having a horrendous off-season. Only thing I know is they had 25 extra million from the new National TV deal and he hasn't done squat with it. If everyone is content with first round playoff exits, then yeah, Wren has had a remarkable off season

Check the 2015 payroll thread, we dont have as much as you think :Alone:

Besides, even if we did, what do you spend it on in the FA market?

[Heyward]

Yea what Bowman is reporting it would take for Price is actually very intriguing.

IF he'd sign an extension, i'd probably do it.

I would guess they want Sims too.

[thewupk]

We'll agree to disagree about Wren having a horrendous off-season. Only thing I know is they had 25 extra million from the new National TV deal and he hasn't done squat with it. If everyone is content with first round playoff exits, then yeah, Wren has had a remarkable off season

You must be new here. The Braves could have the best team in the history of the world and get bounced in the first round. It's a crapshoot. No player(s) will change that.

[Heyward]

You must be new here. The Braves could have the best team in the history of the world and get bounced in the first round. It's a crapshoot. No player(s) will change that.

Is this wrong?

Playoffs are a crapshoot in baseball.

[sgtpepper1972]

In the 22 years I've been a Braves fan, I've seen us fall in the playoffs with just about every sort of team. We've lost with rotations stuffed with aces and shaky bullpens. We've lost with decent rotations and outstanding bullpens. We've lost with outstanding rotations and outstanding bullpens. We've lost with outstanding pitching staffs and poor offenses. We've lost with fair pitching staffs and outstanding offenses. We've lost with offenses that hit the ball out of the park and with offenses that drew lots of walks and offenses that struck out a ton and offenses that made a ton of contact and offenses that scored lots of runs and offenses that scuffled. We've lost with great defenses and average defenses and mediocre defenses and poor defenses.

We've had great, 100+ win teams fall in the LDS (2002, 2003). We've had extraordinary, amazing teams fall in the LCS (1993, 1998). We've lost with a newly minted Hall of Fame manager. We've lost with teams assembled by a future Hall of Fame executive.

The lesson here is simple: the only thing you can do to improve your chances in October is to improve your team overall, and even then you're just making a marginal change in your odds. Since there are rarely mediocre teams in the playoffs (that .500 Padres team a few years ago notwithstanding), a postseason series is usually a battle between two reasonably good teams. And when two reasonably good teams play five games, picking the one that's going to win three games is largely just a matter of guess work.

There's no magic October Formula(TM). You want top-notch, shutdown aces? Been there, done that, witnessed the heartbreak. My namesake headed our rotation for a decade and is a couple months away from being the least controversial Hall of Famer in recent memory. One title from him. And he was backed by what was arguably the greatest rotation in the history of the game.

You want David Price? Sure, we all do. He's a great pitcher. And since he became a starter, Tampa has never advanced beyond the LDS.

In fact, let's go big and give up the farm for Clayton Kershaw. He'll guarantee a deep postseason run. Except since becoming a starter for LA, the Dodgers are 2-2 in his postseason series and he has a 1-3 record and a 4.23 ERA.

Put simply, there's nothing you can do in the off-season that will significantly affect your odds of winning a postseason series, save improving your team to the point where you can reasonably expect to make a postseason series. If you're already in that position, then you, as a general manager, just have to accept that what happens in October is out of your hands, unless you're capable of assembling a true, 1998 Yankees-esque juggernaut.

Very well said!

[weso1]

I don't think it's a complete crapshoot. Because if all other things are equal but you've got Kershaw and Greinke as your one and two then you've got a better chance to win a 5 game series compared to other teams that don't have comparable starters. You've got to face the best pitcher in baseball twice then your chances aren't as good as the team that doesn't. It's not gauranteed by any means, but maybe more like 60/40.

[weso1]

Very well said!

Sav should make the whole thing his quote of the month.

[tvsportscaster]

You must be new here. The Braves could have the best team in the history of the world and get bounced in the first round. It's a crapshoot. No player(s) will change that.

Contrary I'm not new here I've been around this board and the previous incarnation a long time. Even Frank Wren said himself at the beginning of the off-season the Braves needed an ace, so he should put his money where his mouth was. That price tag on Price if that was indeed the price tag was reasonable and he should have explored a trade. Propsects are also a crap shoot. We have no idea how good Alex Wood, Bethancourt and Lucas Sims are going to be. We know how good David Price is.

[thewupk]

Contrary I'm not new here I've been around this board and the previous incarnation a long time. Even Frank Wren said himself at the beginning of the off-season the Braves needed an ace, so he should put his money where his mouth was. That price tag on Price if that was indeed the price tag was reasonable and he should have explored a trade. Propsects are also a crap shoot. We have no idea how good Alex Wood, Bethancourt and Lucas Sims are going to be. We know how good David Price is.

We also know the Rays haven't done **** with Price. If he's that good then why did the Rays get bounced early?

[tvsportscaster]

We also know the Rays haven't done **** with Price. If he's that good then why did the Rays get bounced early?

They've been to a World Series which is more than we can say for the Braves, and the man has won a Cy Young, when was the last time a Braves pitcher did that.

[ChapelHillMatt]

And yes, the playoffs are a freaking crapshoot, once you get in, anything can happen.

Minor or Julio could develop into an ace, or some hitters could go nuts.



You know who says stuff like this? Teams that lose in the 1st round. I don't see any Cardinal or Red Sox fan saying stuff like this. I used to think along these same lines but I don't anymore. How many times do we have to have great regular seasons followed up by 1st round exits before we start to realize our players choke in big games? Why can't our players come up big in the clutch? I'm sorry there is something to be said for winning in October. If Romo can have the choking label attached to his name then so can the Braves. You say anything can happen but the only thing we consistently do in October is lose. If anything could happen and all it takes is for a couple of players get hot then why is it that never happens for us?

[ChapelHillMatt]

I have some hope in BJ bouncing back to a certain level. But Uggla has been in a steep decline every year here. He's not turning that around here.

What I see happening is BJ returning to the player he's been in the past. I don't think he'll be as bad as he was last year but where I disagree with others is I don't believe the "good" Upton is all that good, certainly not worth what we'll be paying him. Uggla is a lost cause, I can't wait until his contract runs out.

[Dalyn]

Someone out there would pay 2-5 million/year for Uggla. There is no excuse for him still being on the team (come Spring Training).

[Carp]

Anyone who think this team doesn't have some gaping holes is in for a rude awakening. We lost one of the best catchers in baseball who hit 20 homers last yr. Gattis replaces some of Mac's productions, but we also lost Gattis's bat from the bench. And who knows if Gattis can repeat last season? There's still quite a large bust risk, imo

We also lost 2 starting pitchers who combined for 18 wins and about 280 innings pitched. While it might seem like Maholm and Huddy didn't have great yrs, you can't discount the fact that provided good value and ate a lot of quakity innings for us.

We should expect a good bit of decline from the catcher/RH bench positions. Pitching wise we do get a (hopefully) healthy Beachy and a full yr of Alex Wood to help shoulder the loss of Huddy and Maholm. May be the combination of Beachy, Wood, and Floyd (or other minor league arms) outproduce what we lost from Huddy and Maholm. But if Beachy goes down again, our staff looks very thin.


I do expect improvement from BJ Upton and a more consistent season from Justin. Hopefully Tommy LaStella or the Pastor can win the 2b job in ST. But we do have a good bit of holes. I see us almost neck and neck with Washington. I give us the edge based off what should be the best BP.

[Carp]

You really want to complain about that???

The Yankees just spent $299 million and the back end of their rotation includes David Phelps, Pineda trying to return from much more serious shoulder surgery, and Adam Warren...AND their current Opening Day 2B and 3B are Brian Roberts and Kelly Johnson.

We have problems? Seriously???


Yanks had some serious holes coming in and have, for the most part, addressed those issues. And they are not done either.

[thewupk]

They've been to a World Series which is more than we can say for the Braves, and the man has won a Cy Young, when was the last time a Braves pitcher did that.

They haven't been to a world series with him as a starter. Again, if he is so good. Why haven't the Rays done anything with him leading their rotation. I thought aces and cy young winners are supposed to lead your team to a world series?

[thewupk]

You know who says stuff like this? Teams that lose in the 1st round. I don't see any Cardinal or Red Sox fan saying stuff like this. I used to think along these same lines but I don't anymore. How many times do we have to have great regular seasons followed up by 1st round exits before we start to realize our players choke in big games? Why can't our players come up big in the clutch? I'm sorry there is something to be said for winning in October. If Romo can have the choking label attached to his name then so can the Braves. You say anything can happen but the only thing we consistently do in October is lose. If anything could happen and all it takes is for a couple of players get hot then why is it that never happens for us?

The Rangers and Tigers have consistently fallen short these past few years too. So it's not just the Braves. And lets not act like they are happy just because they have won a couple of playoff series. The Tigers have had the top hitter and one of the top starters in baseball and have had nothing to show for it. Could be worse. So yes, anything can happen in the playoffs. If you want to think otherwise then so be it. But most of the really good front offices try to build teams for sustained success into getting them into the playoffs because they know once they get there anything can happen.