Most of those were not fantastic assets.Quote:
Originally Posted by sturg33
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Most of those were not fantastic assets.Quote:
Originally Posted by sturg33
LOL OK.Quote:
Originally Posted by Southcack77
I listed 4 players.
Most would imply at least 3 of those 4 players not being great assets.
So tell me which 3. Kimbrel? The best closer in baseball, under control for 4 years who was traded for a guy putting up a 20/20 season in SD? Or where other comparable closers went for top 20 prospects in baseball?
Simmons? The 4 win player who is fighting for an MVP award this year, under control for 5 years?
Gattis? The 2+ win player signed on the cheap for 4 years?
Upton? The 3-4 win player on a very cheap 1 year contract?
Please
The Kimbrel and Simmons trades are very obvious air balls by the front office. The worst part about those trades is that both of them felt rushed. We could have held onto both players for a few more years until the right package came along, but the insistence to get rid of BJ and how quickly the FO lost faith in Simmons was weird.Quote:
Originally Posted by sturg33
I think the Upton trade has worked out well and I think we got a good package for Gattis.
I agree... Upton and Gattis were OK value at the time but looks like it won't yield much.Quote:
Originally Posted by chop2chip
Still, to turn Kimbrel, Wood, Upton, Gattis, and Simmons into Wisler, Olivera, Fried, Folty, and Newcomb stings quite a bit. Turns out the best hope for us is Mallex Smith
That's correct, but the sample size is still too small to make a definitive judgment at this point. Theoretically he could go 6 1/3 next time without walking a batter and get under that magical 5 BB/9 threshold. Unlikely, but it's possible.Quote:
Originally Posted by thewupk
Either way it's too early to definitively label him a bust at this point. And I think many would be less likely to label him as such if the cost to acquire him hadn't been the best defensive shortstop of the current generation.
The sample size is massive. t's not like he just started walking players after he was called upQuote:
Originally Posted by DirkPiggler
Man, I mean this with all due respect, but it seems like you post these same arguments in threads that they don't really fit.... A LOT.Quote:
Originally Posted by sturg33
Maybe we should have one "Wren lovers\Coppy Haters" thread where these discussions could go? IDK.
AgreedQuote:
Originally Posted by sturg33
The conversation led us there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tapate50
I'll keep posting it because there are folks who refuse to deal with reality
There is a difference between a fantastic asset and a good one.Quote:
Originally Posted by sturg33
There is also a difference between whether the assets in a trade were appropriate and whether the assets obtained actually turn out.
Of the trades you mention, I think Simmons is the only one that the baseball community really questioned at all. And I don't think it was unanimous.
Of the four players you mention, Kimbrell was the best asset, IMO. And the Braves used that asset to acquire a top 100 pitcher, clear the worst contract in baseball, acquire a starting CF, another prospect, and a draft pick. Like it or not, that was a lot of value. The argument is whether they should have just eaten the Upton contract or not, but that is an entirely different question as to whether they got a good return.
Simmons and Alex Wood are two very similar propositions. They were both young and controlled and good but not great. They are both having career seasons that probably won't be repeated, but could be. Should the Braves have kept them to be slightly better in 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018, 2019? Maybe. It's hard to say. But the Braves would have still lost in the first three seasons. to me they would make good trade chips now. I wish Atlanta had them back so they could trade them again. Wood's return having been odd and unsuccessful, I wish that especially.
Gattis was not great player. He's a 30 year old catcher with reason to believe he will age poorly that already doesn't really have a competent defensive position. He was worth something and the Braves got something. That's not one I lose any sleep over whatsoever.
The Braves got a lot for a year of Justin Upton, IMO. Just as they did for a year of Heyward.
I'll bet if you say it a few more times people will start believing you!:tchop:Quote:
Originally Posted by sturg33
We get it though. Don't get on a crusade beating the same drum of something that happened 5 years ago (that we are for the most part all aware of) because one or two people still don't get it.Quote:
Originally Posted by sturg33
Its like thethe getting amped about SSS prospects, except in reverse.
I am mostly concerned about our development/coaching staff(s). I hate that you keep getting good prospects that just flop. Wisler was good, and now can't get guys out.. Blair was rolling and got called up too early and does nothing but nibble. there has to be some correlation imo... I know guys bust, but we seem to have a staggering number..
As sturg mentioned he's walked players his entire pro career. And I can separate the trade and what been is now. I hated the trade when it was made before I knew anything out newk. Kid has great stuff but walks are a damning issue and that's whether he was traded for tron or some bum.Quote:
Originally Posted by DirkPiggler
LOL, are you really going to sit here and say you didn't consider all of Wisler, Blair, Folty, Sims, Fried and Newk elite pitching prospects?Quote:
Originally Posted by thethe
Shall I do a quick forum search and find 20 posts where you pimped those guys endlessly?
Your readiness to revise history to fit your commentary is laughable.
Pozzies acting like the Braves didn't have anything of value to sell is the most ignorant thing pozzies say when they pimp how good the rebuild has gone.Quote:
Originally Posted by sturg33
And nothing changes the fact that the FO didn't maximize the future value acquired by trading those assets...not even close.
Please find all these posts if you are going to call me on it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Enscheff
I still stand by my newk comments and said he was elite on many occasions. I also excluded Newk from the comments I mentioned above.
Sure thing...Quote:
Originally Posted by thethe
Here's a typical pencil-him-in-the-rotation quote from you right after Wisler was acquired: "Yup, especially because the rotation will end up being Teheran/Wood/Miller/Folty/Wisler by July 1st."
Here's one of your typical list-them-out-to-make-them-seem-more-impressive posts: "Braves could go into next season with a legitimate 8 starting pitchers:
Teheran
Wood
Miller
Folty
Perez
Wisler
Banuelos
Jenkins"
And another pencil-him-in-the-rotation post, this time as a #3: "Miller/Teheran/Wisler/Perez/Banuelos I think Wood will be used to get another bat. I don't think the front office wants to spend on pitching."
One time, giles said "We have no one ranked as highly as Freeman or Heyward. We don't have anyone with the talent of Teheran. You are insane."
To which you replied: "Albies and Peraza are both top 50 and Albies could potentially be a top 10 prospect. Maybe guys like Wisler/Banuelos/Folty lose their eligiblity but they are all top 50-100 type prospects."
Those are just the first few on the first page of the search results for Wisler. You clearly thought of Wisler as a legit MOR or better SP. Now that he has flopped, you are trying to claim he was nothing special. Now you are trying to claim all the new prospects are better than Wisler, despite the fact that Wisler was ranked as high as #34 by BA.
Need I go on to the other guys? Or would you like to read more Wisler quotes?
ETA: I totally forgot about how much you pimped Williams Perez despite all the intelli-Braves telling you he was garbage haha!
Man you put a lot of effort into trying to discredit someone else. Why does it matter so much to you? Make your point, and don't worry about what others believe. Your valid points will still be valid, and you will spend a lot less time worrying about what someone else believes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Enscheff
Your make really good and substantive points. Let them stand on their own merits.
Took 2 minutes to find those quotes, or about 1 minute longer than it took you to write that reply.Quote:
Originally Posted by mfree80
Might be nice for folks to realize the things they have said in the past can be easily referenced when they try to change their tune a few years later.