Immaculate Team?

[chop2chip]

To me two-way players are a fad that will eventally fade. You are twisting the logic to fit the current narrative. I would argue that Don Drysdale was a two way player, as was Cloninger, etc. There were countless pitchers who could do more than just hit. Ferrell in 1931 comes to mind, how many home runs could he have hit doing what Ohtani has done? To me Ohtani is a gimmick more than anything and should have declare one side or the other each season. Look I get he's talented from both sides but the overhype like he's God in baseball is stupid. "Oh he's the only one to do X!!! That's because he's the only one that's been allowed to try and do it. He's was brought up being an athlete. He wasn't pigeon holed at twelve saying "you are a pitcher" like most American kids are today. You put him on the Braves right now and his value is in the rotation but with most clubs it is probably at the plate.

You are a miserable human being

[Southcack77]

To me two-way players are a fad that will eventally fade. You are twisting the logic to fit the current narrative. I would argue that Don Drysdale was a two way player, as was Cloninger, etc. There were countless pitchers who could do more than just hit. Ferrell in 1931 comes to mind, how many home runs could he have hit doing what Ohtani has done? To me Ohtani is a gimmick more than anything and should have declare one side or the other each season. Look I get he's talented from both sides but the overhype like he's God in baseball is stupid. "Oh he's the only one to do X!!! That's because he's the only one that's been allowed to try and do it. He's was brought up being an athlete. He wasn't pigeon holed at twelve saying "you are a pitcher" like most American kids are today. You put him on the Braves right now and his value is in the rotation but with most clubs it is probably at the plate.

The bitterness just exudes off you man.

[zbhargrove]

To me two-way players are a fad that will eventally fade. You are twisting the logic to fit the current narrative. I would argue that Don Drysdale was a two way player, as was Cloninger, etc. There were countless pitchers who could do more than just hit. Ferrell in 1931 comes to mind, how many home runs could he have hit doing what Ohtani has done? To me Ohtani is a gimmick more than anything and should have declare one side or the other each season. Look I get he's talented from both sides but the overhype like he's God in baseball is stupid. "Oh he's the only one to do X!!! That's because he's the only one that's been allowed to try and do it. He's was brought up being an athlete. He wasn't pigeon holed at twelve saying "you are a pitcher" like most American kids are today. You put him on the Braves right now and his value is in the rotation but with most clubs it is probably at the plate.

This very well could be the worst post ever made in the history of this board. Dudes a legit ace pitcher and MVP level middle of the lineup hitter who can steal a bunch of bases too. And you call him a gimmick. LOL

[Carp]

Don Drysdale with that lifetime .186 average and .523 OPS. Offensive stud I tells ya!

[Carp]

To act like Ohtani is the only guy that's been allowed to do it is hilarious. He's the only guy that CAN do it. Not many baseball players are above average hitters over their careers. It's really friggin hard to be an above average hitter in the majors. Not many pitchers are above average starting pitchers in the majors. In fact, the vast majority of relievers are failed starters. Ohtani isn't just good at hitting and pitching. He is legitimately a Cy Young candidate as a pitcher and he is one of the best hitters in baseball.

The fact that this has to be explained is unfathomable.

[JCarbo76]

To act like Ohtani is the only guy that's been allowed to do it is hilarious. He's the only guy that CAN do it. Not many baseball players are above average hitters over their careers. It's really friggin hard to be an above average hitter in the majors. Not many pitchers are above average starting pitchers in the majors. In fact, the vast majority of relievers are failed starters. Ohtani isn't just good at hitting and pitching. He is legitimately a Cy Young candidate as a pitcher and he is one of the best hitters in baseball.

The fact that this has to be explained is unfathomable.

Both things can be true. Ohtani can be a ToR starter and top power hitter (which he is) and also be the beneficiary of some things that others (John Montgomery Ward, Babe Ruth, Wes Ferrell, Don Newcombe, et al) weren't. Specifically, he has the benefit of a universal DH, which allows him to be a full-time starting pitcher and a full-time hitter. He also had the benefit of not being groomed in the American system, where one tends to be pigeon-holed as either a pitcher or a hitter at a young age.

I wouldn't say that Ohtani has been the ONLY guy who has been allowed to do both, but I think it is fair to say that many others have been discouraged from doing both.

[Carp]

Both things can be true. Ohtani can be a ToR starter and top power hitter (which he is) and also be the beneficiary of some things that others (John Montgomery Ward, Babe Ruth, Wes Ferrell, Don Newcombe, et al) weren't. Specifically, he has the benefit of a universal DH, which allows him to be a full-time starting pitcher and a full-time hitter. He also had the benefit of not being groomed in the American system, where one tends to be pigeon-holed as either a pitcher or a hitter at a young age.

I wouldn't say that Ohtani has been the ONLY guy who has been allowed to do both, but I think it is fair to say that many others have been discouraged from doing both.

That's partially true. But, the likelihood of any pitcher being a legit ace is small. And the likelihood of any hitter being an elite hitter is also small. The likelihood of any player being good enough to be elite at both things is astronomically low. To regard what he's doing as a gimmick is simply outrageous.

[Bluedevilruss]

A Don Drysdale/Ohtani comparison is one of the most boomer things I’ve ever read.

[bravesfanMatt]

I can't think of any pitcher being a good enough hitter to be a teams full time DH. Now I don't go back to the old timer's days.. But guys like DeGrom, Fried, Bum and others were actually pretty good hitters.. but none of them were good enough to ever be a DH. Maybe one could blame the american system when they get to college, they are used as one or the other.. but like Carp said, it is hard enough to be great at one of those aspects, so having both in one player is extremely rare.

[DirkPiggler]

I can't think of any pitcher being a good enough hitter to be a teams full time DH. Now I don't go back to the old timer's days.. But guys like DeGrom, Fried, Bum and others were actually pretty good hitters.. but none of them were good enough to ever be a DH. Maybe one could blame the american system when they get to college, they are used as one or the other.. but like Carp said, it is hard enough to be great at one of those aspects, so having both in one player is extremely rare.

I think you nailed it here. Ohtani is that good at both because he was allowed to continue to do both in Japan while he was developing as a player. In the U.S. he would have been forced to choose by the minor leagues at the very least, and likely well before.

Tim Hudson is one I think could have handled pitching and hitting if he had been given the opportunity beyond college. He was really good at both at Auburn. Not Ohtani level at either, but still good enough to help a major league team.

[bravesfanforlife88]

I can't think of any pitcher being a good enough hitter to be a teams full time DH. Now I don't go back to the old timer's days.. But guys like DeGrom, Fried, Bum and others were actually pretty good hitters.. but none of them were good enough to ever be a DH. Maybe one could blame the american system when they get to college, they are used as one or the other.. but like Carp said, it is hard enough to be great at one of those aspects, so having both in one player is extremely rare.

Ohtani being as good as he is as a pitcher and hitter separately is crazy. To your point, most people are separated at college into the hitter or pitcher category and not allowed to do both. However, how many players in either category become one of the best in the league and solely focus on that position? Very few. Could Ronald Acuna Jr do what he does offensively and be a ToR pitcher as well? Maybe, but I doubt it.

But to my point early in the thread, I wouldn't pay the man $500+m. He is not going to be throwing 100+ mph and hitting for power/average for too much longer, you have to assume. He is in uncharted waters and there is no way i'd make that financial commitment as a GM.

[Carp]

Rick Ankiel is the closest we've seen to someone who even slightly resembles Ohtani in the last 100 years. 1.9 bWAR season as a rookie, with a K/9 of 10, before anxiety forced him off the mound. Then over 07-08 he had a combined 37 homers and 3.2 bWAR over 167 games. Legitimately a guy who was above at both positions, if only for a brief period of time.

[Mad Dog Murph]

You are a miserable human being

He’s a special kind of stupid.

[CyYoung31]

To me two-way players are a fad that will eventally fade. You are twisting the logic to fit the current narrative. I would argue that Don Drysdale was a two way player, as was Cloninger, etc. There were countless pitchers who could do more than just hit. Ferrell in 1931 comes to mind, how many home runs could he have hit doing what Ohtani has done? To me Ohtani is a gimmick more than anything and should have declare one side or the other each season. Look I get he's talented from both sides but the overhype like he's God in baseball is stupid. "Oh he's the only one to do X!!! That's because he's the only one that's been allowed to try and do it. He's was brought up being an athlete. He wasn't pigeon holed at twelve saying "you are a pitcher" like most American kids are today. You put him on the Braves right now and his value is in the rotation but with most clubs it is probably at the plate.

This very well could be the worst post ever made in the history of this board. Dudes a legit ace pitcher and MVP level middle of the lineup hitter who can steal a bunch of bases too. And you call him a gimmick. LOL

Mother****er has never seen a relevant two-way player in his lifetime, and he wants to act like Ohtani isn’t a big deal.

[CyYoung31]

I think you nailed it here. Ohtani is that good at both because he was allowed to continue to do both in Japan while he was developing as a player. In the U.S. he would have been forced to choose by the minor leagues at the very least, and likely well before.

Tim Hudson is one I think could have handled pitching and hitting if he had been given the opportunity beyond college. He was really good at both at Auburn. Not Ohtani level at either, but still good enough to help a major league team.

So where are all of those great Japanese two-way players?

[NYCBrave]

Positive article on Fangraphs about Riley's improving defense:

https://blogs.fangraphs.com/five-thi...all-star-week/

Austin Riley is rightly regarded as a bat-first player. He’s coming off of back-to-back seasons where he was roughly 40% better than the average hitter, and he signed the largest deal in club history on the back of those years. He was also 10 outs below average at third base according to Statcast, though DRS instead thought he was a plus defender out there, so the true answer likely lies somewhere in between.

This year, Riley’s bat has been hot and cold. He slumped badly in May and again in June, but he’s had his fair share of hot streaks as well. The result is a batting line that isn’t far from league average, though his raw power numbers suggest that better days will be here soon. But there’s one clear piece of good news to counteract that: he looks better and better defensively to me every day.

The first example that comes to mind? What about the All-Star Game itself, where Riley channeled Nolan Arenado to rob a sure base hit from Josh Jung:



That’s just clean living right there. Jung hit the ball so softly that it was a do-or-die play. Riley correctly went in barehanded, used his momentum to glide into a throwing position, and delivered an accurate throw on one hop. Plain and simple, that’s great defense. That ball is a hit most of the time, particularly against a hitter with Jung’s power, because third basemen have to play back.

That was the best play he made all game, but I liked this one, too:



That was a nice play, even if it didn’t have the wow factor of that off-balance charge. He displayed great hands, calm reactions, and the presence of mind to fire the ball across the diamond immediately rather than first getting to his feet. You have to go for it there, because a normal throw won’t work, and the risk of misfiring is just not as big as the reward of turning a double play.

Those quick-reaction throws weren’t always Riley’s forte. In fact, he looked stiff and mechanical to me in the early stages of his career, trying to throw from the same platform every time rather than adapting to his situation. Now, though, he looks smooth and natural out there. His offense will turn around, and when he does, he’ll be a true double threat rather than a slugger with a third baseman’s mitt.

[NYCBrave]

A second positive article on Riley today on Fangraphs, mentioned as a player due for a big second half:

https://blogs.fangraphs.com/here-are...g-second-half/


There probably aren’t many folks that are worried about Austin Riley, but that doesn’t mean he isn’t worth discussing. It would have been fair to expect him and his MVP teammate, Ronald Acuña Jr., to be neck-and-neck in terms of total offensive production; Riley’s preseason ZiPS projection was a 140 wRC+, and Acuña’s was a 143 wRC+. But while the latter has taken off, the former has taken an unexpected step back. Do not fear, though; I do not expect this to continue. Below are two heat maps detailing Riley’s swing rates last year compared to this one:


The story is clear: Riley isn’t attacking in the heart of the zone nearly as much as he did last year when he had a .255 ISO and .468 xwOBACON, with both those numbers trailing behind this year (.181 ISO and .426 xwOBACON). His swing still looks great, and his pull rate, groundball rate, and SweetSpot% haven’t dropped off enough to make me think that his swing has undergone any worrisome change, so I’m confident this is an aggression situation. Coming out of the break, I think Riley will be closer to his 2022 82% Heart Swing% than this year’s 73%.

[Mad Dog Murph]

I’m honestly not worried too much about Riley….. and most on this board aren’t either. He’s just going through a patch right now. He’s improved defensively and I think his offense comes on strong in the 2nd half…….and honestly he hasn’t been that damn bad, just feels like it when he’s surrounded by other ridiculous offensive players this year.

[Nerfherders]

Riley had the best performance among the Braves in the ASG because of those two plays, which likely saved a run. The soft grounder play was probably the best defensive play in the game.

[cajunrevenge]

Yeah I am not worried about Riley either. He wasn't like Michael Harris the first 2 months bad. He has just been around average offensively and one hot month and he could turn the while year around . Hopefully saving that hot streak for October.