Knucksie (04-05-2015)
No, and I didn't say that you did. I only suggested that the "Hype Machine" wasn't particularly far off. Some people have bolder projections for him, but I'm talking in terms of consensus.
I'm not sure what KJ and Prado have to do with any of it.
See the difference?
You know, if you're going to go the patronizing route, you might need to up your game a tad.
Dalyn (04-04-2015)
Kelly was the golden boy of the "statheads." Honestly, I don't remember your user name from Scout, so couldn't even recall if you were among the Utlley Lite worshippers. Even after years into his career, the excuses where like in that other post. They will never admit that he wasn't Something Special.
Another was Marte. Somebody really posted "a decade of Gold Gloves with Mike Schmidt power." Admittedly, just about everybody thought he was Chipper's heir apparent, but a couple of us mentioned some cautions.
Point is that reading Fangraphs isn't the end all of player evaluation.
Last edited by Knucksie; 04-04-2015 at 02:02 PM.
I'll give you a hint. His username was "Julio3000" pretty hard to figure out.
Kelly was hardly a golden boy, McCann was the golden boy. Kelly was recognized as a valuable asset. Some said that he would be better than Francoeur. Both of those statements are true.
Marte you don't have a solid point. Essentially everyone loved Marte until some cracks started to show. Then some people quickly jumped off the bandwagon and were happy to blurt out "I told you so!" even if they were hyped for Marte.
Stockholm, more densely populated than NYC - sturg
Julio3000 (04-04-2015)
The excitement over LaStella was because he was gonna be a successful hitter. His floor was a low .700 OPS. He K'd too infrequently, hit too many LDs and walked to much to not be an asset. No one was annointing him anything. But Knucksie's been beating this horse for a long time. Just like the Utley Lite comments. He harps on things whether they're said or not. Makes for good internet fun, not for good honest discussion.
Stockholm, more densely populated than NYC - sturg
Julio3000 (04-04-2015)
I was a big fan of KJ, and felt that he got buried too quickly and that the Braves decision to cut bait on him—with no return—was unwise. He was a solid hitter, became a decent defender, and was a good baserunner considering he didn't have a lot of speed. His big year in Arizona was something that we could have used. He fell a bit short of what I thought he MIGHT be . . . based on observation with my own l'il eyeballs.
I was never a particular fan of Andy Marte's. My inclination was more in the "mentioning cautions" camp. And if my posting career at Scout had been more memorable, you'd recall that I was fairly consistently critical of how some, ahem, senior figures on that board would relentlessly jock any Braves prospect. I think that the bloom was off the rose (as far as the board was concerned) by the time we traded him.
So why not just consider TLS in a vacuum, without all of these associations? I think that his MiLB track record and a sheaf of scouting reports all put his floor and ceiling in about the same place. I trust my eyes, but I don't flatter myself to think that my watching a few ballgames is going to add that much to the conversation.
Are we really doing the "x group of people wet themselves over y player and y player was bad" thing? Cause theres plenty of that type of stuff to go around for statheads and scouties. Plenty of scouties wet themselves over Ryan Langehans. Beating dead horses doesnt make the 2015 Braves any better.
Toward the end of his time with the Braves, there was a lot of "deer in headlights" with him at the plate.
Absolutely true about the relentlessly jocking of any Braves prospect! Shanks led this chorus, and it was even moreso if the Braves prospect happened to be Georgia-born/resident and a grown up a Braves fan. This strategy was successful with McCann (as Zito alluded) and Wainwright. Not so much for Brandon Jones and Jonathan Schuerholz.
Marte was just an example. My one caution was that weight/conditioning could eventually be an issue. Somebody pointed out a hole in his swing. This was while he was still in AAA, and still in good graces.
We could go through any number of names, who've passed through. No matter how reliable anybody might think a specific approach is to evaluating future major league talent, there is no sure fire method. Let me share a few other names, who've come and gone through the system and were once big names in the minors.
Bruce Chen - had lengthy career, which is respectable enough but was touted for staff ace level
George Lombard - at least projected to be above average OFer
Wilson Betemit - greatness was expected from the time of him starting A-ball, he had an OK career but fell way short of expectations
Granted, these were from the early days of everybody having internet access...probably a good thing too that there weren't those types of debates. Even better before that with Justice having spent 3 years at Richmond, including substantial dips and eventually becoming an All Star, marrying a Hollywood starlit and being a WS hero. Fangraphs could not have written that script.
On the other side, if somebody could've shown me how successful DeRosa would become, that would've really been impressive. When he was at Richmond, there little indication that he'd be more than a major league backup.
Maybe he'll be OK. He's gone though. It was always my perception that his 'upside,' without whatever his ceiling might be, was exaggerated because of Uggla. An OP even said as much in another post. So, there didn't seem reason to get caught up in the hype for someone, who barely been discussed before the end of the 2013 season, if at all.
In terms of excitement, getting worked up about a Braves prospect doesn't rank up there with Sid's slide in terms of getting me to jump up out of my seat. So will have to defer to the zealots.
Last edited by Knucksie; 04-05-2015 at 10:11 AM.
You were chief among those who fed into it. The thought never occurred that it was possible to use both approaches. Schuerholz said so in his book that they use both.
Langerhans flashed good leather then and it did carry on with his time in the majors. Other than that, your recollection must be better than mine about expecting anything other than above average defense. Maybe he could run too? Memory's fuzzy.
Will at least give credit to people who actually go to games and offer honest and thoughtful appraisals, as compared to those who are online all day long with no active social lives.
Last edited by Knucksie; 04-05-2015 at 09:59 AM.
Gosh darn it you dont say. Guess my collection of Kelly Johnson rookie cards arent gonna be worth thousands of dollars then right?
Apparently not.