The Trump Presidency

[jpx7]

I think we should be fine with people having opinions, even if we don't like them—and hell, at least they're engaged in the political discourse, even if it's only insofar as they reveal themselves to be foolish bigots (à la the Duck people).

[Julio3000]

This is a pretty good illustration of the emptiness of a couple of common tropes. Some who like to bray about "snowflakes" and hypersensitivity apparently break out in hives when pro athletes engage and nonviolent political protest. People who decry groupthink are apparently unable to handle a disruption of a display of jingoism enforced by social pressure.

[Jaw]

To add on to this, I always chuckle when those on the right tell liberals in Hollywood to shut their mouths and sing, or athletes to shut their mouths and play because they make millions to doing "nothing" therefore their political opinions are invalid.

Yet, the ultimate golden spoon baby is sitting in the office of the most powerful position in the world. Guy has never had to work a day in his life. Received a million dollar loan (10 million when adjusted for inflation) by his dad. They've savored and slobbered for his political opinions long before ran for office.

A lot of these football and basketball players absolutely come from humble beginnings and dreadful backgrounds. I'm sure a good amount of the actors and actresses do to. They love capitalism, and love slobbering over a "job creator" such as Trump as someone we should look to as a leader, but think those that hustled and worked their asses off to sign these multi-million dollar contracts are not leaders and need to shut up and stop whining.

I go back to the Beatles and Sinatra. There are instances of them refusing to perform in segregated venues. Sinatra went out of his way to make sure Sammy Davis wasn't treated second class by a promoter. Beatles threatened to walk out of certain places they performed at if the barriers weren't removed. These celebrities did something as little as they did for social change but it was big for others. LeBron is self-made. Why do Trump supporters differentiate between he hustling his ass to be worth a quarter of a billion, but love Trump because he's a billionaire but never had to work a day in his life?

Why do you ask that political commentary be kept here instead of on the main board?

I think I've been pretty clear that I believe they have the right to protest it (unless forbidden by their employers). That doesn't mean I have to like it. Sports, music, and films are an escape, and one of very few places in an increasingly politicized country where people can come together. I like that I can sit down with someone at a Braves game that I have nothing in common with, and we can be on the same side for 3 hours of a baseball game.

The biggest story from the NFL games yesterday is who stood/kneeled/stayed in the locker room. That's fine, the NFL, the owners, and players have every right to do that. I watched a great rugby match last night. I think I'll watch a few more.

[57Brave]

Jennifer Bendery‏Verified account @jbendery

Senior Hill aide says WH expected to send disaster aid request to Congress in 1st/2nd week of Oct for Puerto Rico. That gets ball rolling.

there is little water
Today
...

[The Chosen One]

Why do you ask that political commentary be kept here instead of on the main board?

I think I've been pretty clear that I believe they have the right to protest it (unless forbidden by their employers). That doesn't mean I have to like it. Sports, music, and films are an escape, and one of very few places in an increasingly politicized country where people can come together. I like that I can sit down with someone at a Braves game that I have nothing in common with, and we can be on the same side for 3 hours of a baseball game.

The biggest story from the NFL games yesterday is who stood/kneeled/stayed in the locker room. That's fine, the NFL, the owners, and players have every right to do that. I watched a great rugby match last night. I think I'll watch a few more.

We have a politics forum because there are too many people who can't handle seeing politics in the main baseball forum.

Well it's fine you don't have to like it, but the argument here is the President is using the bully pulpit to encourage NFL owners to fire those sons of bitches. That's what inspired more players to protest yesterday and become and even bigger frontpage story. Trump just continuing to pick the wrong battles. And it is strange since there's a big healthcare bill vote coming this week.

[Hawk]

You can't "slight" an inanimate symbol; that imputes emotional dimension to a piece of cloth.

He chose to visually reject ritualistically honoring that symbol in a collective space because he felt that what it symbolized currently was at odds with both what it's meant to symbolize and his personal sense of political justice.

So there's no 'emotional dimension' to the American flag? There's no 'emotional dimension' to the Quran?

You believe that the symbolism of the flag has the capability to metamorphose? That there isn't any sort of universal symbolism behind what the flag represents?

And, honestly, you believe this was simply a visual rejection? That it wasn't a purposeful rejection of cultural process?

[57Brave]

do we equate the flag with the Quran?
The Bible ?

hmm

[The Chosen One]

So there's no 'emotional dimension' to the American flag? There's no 'emotional dimension' to the Quran?

You believe that the symbolism of the flag has the capability to metamorphose? That there isn't any sort of universal symbolism behind what the flag represents?

And, honestly, you believe this was simply a visual rejection? That it wasn't a purposeful rejection of cultural process?

The flag doesn't need to be hugged and catered. If the flag represents what you say it does, the flag flies for the players to have the right to kneel.

I've seen so many social media posts from people on news articles on facebook, giving the same stump speech. My brothers, family members, friends died for that flag and you disrespect it. Ok, sorry they died. But those servicemen fought and died for the players to protest. What's the point of supposedly going overseas and fighting for freedom, when the most powerful man in the country uses his platform to intimidate and encourage NFL owners to fire players over silently protesting? How can you fight for freedom, then complain when others are using that freedom?

And speaking of metaphors, since the flag has an emotional attachment, what about the Office of the Presidency? Does the seal of the President not metaphorically represent the values of the country in the same way the flag does? Do you not think people view the office as something sacred to be honored? Yet the guy you keep supporting continues to desecrate, spit on, and piss on the office with his antics and behavior?

[Hawk]

do we equate the flag with the Quran?
The Bible ?

hmm

You don't think we've culturally bestowed ethereal qualities on the flag?

[jpx7]

So there's no 'emotional dimension' to the American flag? There's no 'emotional dimension' to the Quran?

You believe that the symbolism of the flag has the capability to metamorphose? That there isn't any sort of universal symbolism behind what the flag represents?

And, honestly, you believe this was simply a visual rejection? That it wasn't a purposeful rejection of cultural process?

You know precisely what I meant: the flag itself has no emotions to "slight". Others can feel slighted because of what the flag symbolizes to them, but one can't "slight" the flag.

As to the second point: signifiers, such as symbols, metamorphose: what they signify changes over time, place, and between individuals and cultural units—sometimes vastly, sometimes precisely. I do not therefore believe most symbols—and especially this flag—have anything approaching "universal symbolism"; in the case of the flag, we can't even really agree on what it's meant to represent, much less how effectively it represents that intent.

On the third score, I'm not even sure there's enough of a point over which to leap. The gesture of kneeling is visual, not verbal—again, are you willfully misreading here?—but naturally, in rejecting a cultural symbol, there's a implicit rejection of aspects/processes of said culture. That's pretty self-evident; that's why such a visual protest has value.

[The Chosen One]

You don't think we've culturally bestowed ethereal qualities on the flag?

We've culturally bestowed ethereal qualities on the Office of the Presidency. The guy currently occupying that office has done tons to disrespect said office and embarrass the country he represents.

Where is the selective outrage for that?

"Oh, well I don't like what he tweets even though I support him" so that I guess that's the get out of jail free card for people that have no way to condone his petulant child like behavior.

[57Brave]

Let's unpack today -- it is barely past noon

1) N Korea has taken Trump's threats as a declaration of war

2) A massive change to health insurance is being put up for vote with no a) scoring by CBO b) 90 minutes of debate allotted

3) Regardless what posters tell me, even Drudge is sounding alarms over the catastrophe about to fall on Puerto Rico. Not even the one that has fallen - but about to fall


It is 12:47 PM
Lotta day left

[57Brave]

Without power and communications in much of the island, millions of people, including city leaders and first responders, have been cut off from the world since Maria hit Wednesday.
Authorities flew over the island Saturday, and were stunned by what they saw. No cellphones, water or power. Roads completely washed away and others blocked by debris, isolating residents.
.........................................

Matthew Dowd‏Verified account @matthewjdowd

There are more Americans living in Puerto Rico than Iowa. One wonders if they had Electoral Votes would Pres. be dealing w/ it differently
9:30 AM - 25 Sep 2017

[57Brave]

Colin Wilhelm
✔
@colinwilhelm

Spoke to Puerto Rico's governor earlier tonight. He said the island's yet to receive all search & rescue & humanitarian aid its requested.
10:16 PM - Sep 24, 2017

This was last night

[jpx7]

You don't think we've culturally bestowed ethereal qualities on the flag?

And you don't think rejecting that ethereality—the blameless superiority and overwrought conviction it confers—is also valuably implicated in a non-verbal protest of the flag?

Generally, that's why I've frequently not stood for the anthem in my life, and have often squirmed internally when I've felt the collective pressure to do so, against my instincts: more than the US failing to meet my (or its own) expectations for itself, I don't enjoy or condone the deification of its cloth standard. I'm more or less a statist, but damn: there's an important obverse to "render unto Caesar", and it starts with not encouraging the apotheosis of the state or it's symbols.

[57Brave]

[Hawk]

The flag doesn't need to be hugged and catered. If the flag represents what you say it does, the flag flies for the players to have the right to kneel.

I've seen so many social media posts from people on news articles on facebook, giving the same stump speech. My brothers, family members, friends died for that flag and you disrespect it. Ok, sorry they died. But those servicemen fought and died for the players to protest. What's the point of supposedly going overseas and fighting for freedom, when the most powerful man in the country uses his platform to intimidate and encourage NFL owners to fire players over silently protesting? How can you fight for freedom, then complain when others are using that freedom?

And speaking of metaphors, since the flag has an emotional attachment, what about the Office of the Presidency? Does the seal of the President not metaphorically represent the values of the country in the same way the flag does? Do you not think people view the office as something sacred to be honored? Yet the guy you keep supporting continues to desecrate, spit on, and piss on the office with his antics and behavior?

I haven't said what I think the flag represents, either personally or as a contemporary cultural observation.

[jpx7]

Without power and communications in much of the island, millions of people, including city leaders and first responders, have been cut off from the world since Maria hit Wednesday.
Authorities flew over the island Saturday, and were stunned by what they saw. No cellphones, water or power. Roads completely washed away and others blocked by debris, isolating residents.
.........................................

Matthew Dowd‏Verified account @matthewjdowd

There are more Americans living in Puerto Rico than Iowa. One wonders if they had Electoral Votes would Pres. be dealing w/ it differently
9:30 AM - 25 Sep 2017

I've been wondering for a few days if this (following several years of economic crisis and insolvency) might further galvanize and spur the statehood movement down there.

[Jaw]

We have a politics forum because there are too many people who can't handle seeing politics in the main baseball forum.

Well it's fine you don't have to like it, but the argument here is the President is using the bully pulpit to encourage NFL owners to fire those sons of bitches. That's what inspired more players to protest yesterday and become and even bigger frontpage story. Trump just continuing to pick the wrong battles. And it is strange since there's a big healthcare bill vote coming this week.

I completely agree with you about this. His biggest enemy is his mouth, and the big foot he keeps sticking in it.

[Hawk]

You know precisely what I meant: the flag itself has no emotions to "slight". Others can feel slighted because of what the flag symbolizes to them, but one can't "slight" the flag.

As to the second point: signifiers, such as symbols, metamorphose: what they signify changes over time, place, and between individuals and cultural units—sometimes vastly, sometimes precisely. I do not therefore believe most symbols—and especially this flag—have anything approaching "universal symbolism"; in the case of the flag, we can't even really agree on what it's meant to represent, much less how effectively it represents that intent.

On the third score, I'm not even sure there's enough of a point over which to leap. The gesture of kneeling is visual, not verbal—again, are you willfully misreading here?—but naturally, in rejecting a cultural symbol, there's a implicit rejection of aspects/processes of said culture. That's pretty self-evident; that's why such a visual protest has value.

Yeah, I understand what you meant, but aside from my finding it to be an incidental observation, I don't agree that you can't slight an object simply because it has no emotion, or brains, or heart/soul.

1) But isn't what has changed here actually the signified, not the signifier?

2) Let's consider the flag in light of how it's represented in the national anthem.

3) Yes, I get that. All I'm trying to do is establish some pretty basic parameters en route to answering a previous question about why people might feel upset by this rejection of cultural process.