Is There Anyone Out There...

[chop2chip]

Not at all. Look at what teams are paying Cubans who have never played a day in professional American baseball. Look at what teams are paying players taken at the top of the draft.

If you could pay down Kemp's salary a bit, say $4M per year and ship him off to a AL club to DH for a Gattis like package (Folty, Ruiz, Thurman) then it could be a big win. It would be a gamble, as all trades are, but you either trust your scouts or you don't and if you don't then fire them and go hire some you can trust.

What I am saying is that "eating" salary to moves player we acquired a week ago is implicitly saying that we knowingly overpaid for a player. If we did so in order to get a higher prospect package then sure that's fine, but that's not the thought I was bemoaning.

[Horsehide Harry]

What I am saying is that "eating" salary to moves player we acquired a week ago is implicitly saying that we knowingly overpaid for a player. If we did so in order to get a higher prospect package then sure that's fine, but that's not the thought I was bemoaning.

I agree that if they have to eat salary just to move Kemp for nothing then it was a bad trade. Hopefully, the move was made as part of a combination of moves - ie. move Olivera to get rid of Olivera and acquire Kemp. Then in the offseason, move Kemp to an AL team for a package of prospects where paying down his salary some gets you better prospects.

I mean, Kemp has power which is good as the team surely needed that even at the cost on the defensive side. However, Kemp is a win-now kind of player and the Braves should be focused on having players who are good or will be good at a time when the rest of the talent is ready to ripen which is anywhere from 2-6 years out.

I see posters on here counting Maitan as part of the solution when he is likely 4-6 years from ever stepping foot on a ML field. Having guys like him is great BUT by the time he arrives, Folty, Wisler, ect will be headed to FA or gone already. The young talent needs to come in waves and the Braves have essentially 3 waves of pitching:

1. Teheran, Folty, Wisler, Blair, Jenkins, Gant, Whelan, Manban, Perez
2. Newcomb, Ellis, Sims, Bradley, Povse, Withrow, Franco, Clark, Lawlor
3. Weigl, Soroka, Toussaint, Fried, Sanchez, Allard, Anderson, Wentz, Muller, Martinez, Hellinger, Gamez, Wilson, Rangel, Javier

Obviously, the waves outlined above have blurry lines as some could fit in either wave or may force their way up or down through performance. But, under an ordinary growth curve, this is where they roughly fit IMO.

So, from a pitching perspective, you would have to say the rebuild has accomplished at least filling the cupboard with a lot of arms to draw from.

However, the position prospects aren't where they need to be. The waves as I see them are:

1. Swanson, Albies, Peterson, Ruiz, Mallex
2. Lien, Odom, Davidson, Curcio
3. Riley, Acuna, Didder, everybody in short season or DSL

I had to really stretch for names there. Your only real power threats are possibly Peterson, maybe Davidson and hopefully Riley but none are anywhere close to can't miss.

Bottom line for me is that the system is in reasonably good shape (maybe great shape) with pitching, although the most high end arms appear to be third wave guys who are probably 2-3 years away.
The hitting prospects look like a starting everyday 2hole guy for ss (Swanson), a starting lead off guy for 2B (Albies), a potential starting corner OF who just as likely could be no better than a 4th OF (Peterson), then a few possibles and long shots. The higher end talent looks to be all the way down in what is more likely to be the 4th wave of talent (Maitan, Cruz, Pache, etc.)

[PurpleBrave]

Just wish there was more star power. By the time all our hitting prospects are ready, Freeman will be in his 30s

[zitothebrave]

It definitely was odd, but at least it closed off the Chris Johnson rant spigot here once and for all.

What makes it weird is the issues of multiple plans. The Johnson trade makes sense if your goal is to free up cash after 2016, but then to make a trade for Kemp.

That's really been my issues with the rebuild.

We cut bait with our expensive vets in Justin, Jason, Kimbrel, etc. but then sign an expensive vet in Markakis. Trading prospects and a young pitcher for an old prospect who was owed a lot of money. And then trading that person for an old massively overpaid vet.

Really if we didn't sign Markakis and if we didn't trade for Olivera we'd be in a great position. Imagine every other move that happened and this is our theoretical team right now.

Rotation
Julio
Wood
Folty
Wisler
Jenkins

C - Flowers
1B - Freeman
2B - Jace
3B - Garcia
SS - Aybar
LF - Mallex
CF - Ender
RF - Francoeur (or whoever, don't care)

Then we open up next year with the potential team largely the same but add in a value FA signing like Josh Reddick or Jose Bautista who could be had for value deals and add in Ozzie at SS, possibly Dustin in LF instead of a FA. Make a big package offer for Josh Donaldson and extend him.

Braves could roll into 2018 with a team something like

Julio
Folty
WIsler
Sims
Blair
Newcomb
Toussaint
Jenkins
Bird

Point being lots of arms who could be ready in 2 years, not even factoring a fast development from Allard or Soroka. No need to spend money on SP unload Wood for best available prospects.

Lineup wehave an issue with C after that though things look really good

1B - Freeman
2B - Ozzie
3B - Donaldson
SS - Swanson
And an OF of either

LF - Mallex
CF - Ender
RF - Reddick (aka no fly zone)

LF - Bautista
CF - Mallex
RF - Ender

LF - Peterson
CF - Mallex
RF - Ender

That is a solid potential team there. ANd it's somewhat realistic for it to happen. Risk is that we could have no quality veteran pitchers aside from Julio, but I'm fine with that. if we have 4 quality pitchers and a revolving door for the last, we'll be fine.

[zbhargrove]

What makes it weird is the issues of multiple plans. The Johnson trade makes sense if your goal is to free up cash after 2016, but then to make a trade for Kemp.

That's really been my issues with the rebuild.

We cut bait with our expensive vets in Justin, Jason, Kimbrel, etc. but then sign an expensive vet in Markakis. Trading prospects and a young pitcher for an old prospect who was owed a lot of money. And then trading that person for an old massively overpaid vet.

Really if we didn't sign Markakis and if we didn't trade for Olivera we'd be in a great position. Imagine every other move that happened and this is our theoretical team right now.

Rotation
Julio
Wood
Folty
Wisler
Jenkins

C - Flowers
1B - Freeman
2B - Jace
3B - Garcia
SS - Aybar
LF - Mallex
CF - Ender
RF - Francoeur (or whoever, don't care)

Then we open up next year with the potential team largely the same but add in a value FA signing like Josh Reddick or Jose Bautista who could be had for value deals and add in Ozzie at SS, possibly Dustin in LF instead of a FA. Make a big package offer for Josh Donaldson and extend him.

Braves could roll into 2018 with a team something like

Julio
Folty
WIsler
Sims
Blair
Newcomb
Toussaint
Jenkins
Bird

Point being lots of arms who could be ready in 2 years, not even factoring a fast development from Allard or Soroka. No need to spend money on SP unload Wood for best available prospects.

Lineup wehave an issue with C after that though things look really good

1B - Freeman
2B - Ozzie
3B - Donaldson
SS - Swanson
And an OF of either

LF - Mallex
CF - Ender
RF - Reddick (aka no fly zone)

LF - Bautista
CF - Mallex
RF - Ender

LF - Peterson
CF - Mallex
RF - Ender

That is a solid potential team there. ANd it's somewhat realistic for it to happen. Risk is that we could have no quality veteran pitchers aside from Julio, but I'm fine with that. if we have 4 quality pitchers and a revolving door for the last, we'll be fine.

So Bautista is older than Kemp and Bautista has shown clear regression this year and he's your answer? Reddick is not as good of a hitter as Kemp. For Donaldson you're going to have to trade the farm. If you think you can get Donaldson without starting with Albies and/or Swanson you're crazy.

[zbhargrove]

I do get a kick out of Kemp being an "old vet" at 31 when Bautista is at a sub .800 OPS with a couple years on the decline at age 36

[zitothebrave]

So Bautista is older than Kemp and Bautista has shown clear regression this year and he's your answer? Reddick is not as good of a hitter as Kemp. For Donaldson you're going to have to trade the farm. If you think you can get Donaldson without starting with Albies and/or Swanson you're crazy.

Wouldn't have to trade the farm for one year of Donaldson. Bautista has shown regression but could be had much cheaper than Kemp.Bautista's "clear regression" has him posting a 114 wRC+ Kemp the last 2 years has posted a 109 and 102 wRC+. So regressing Bautista>Kemp. ALso Bautista isn't one of the worst defenders in baseball. Reddick the last 2 years has a 117 and 102 wRC+. I tihnk with Kemp you have to realize that he is so bad defensively he has to be great offensively to even be a semi-acceptable player. Reddick is also a much better defender than Kemp, and again, would be much cheaper. If I could have Bautista for 3/39 or Reddick for 4/40 or Kemp at 3/55, it's a gimme which one I'll take.

[zitothebrave]

I do get a kick out of Kemp being an "old vet" at 31 when Bautista is at a sub .800 OPS with a couple years on the decline at age 36

Bautista would be brought in to be a 6 hitter righty with power. Not a star of course, but he wouldn't be paid like a star, could be had for 3 years and under 40 million. Heck could maybe be much cheaper like 3/30.

[KB21]

The declining Matt Kemp has hit .288/.331/.498 with a .210 ISO since June 1st, and the no good Nick Markakis is hitting .298/.350/.434 in his last 260 plate appearances.

[smootness]

Oh man... I hope that's not the case. The idea of trading for Kemp is that we got him at market value. If we still have to eat money to trade him after two weeks trading for him then that's horrific.

No it's not. We didn't get Kemp at 'good value'. We got him for Olivera. Do you think the Pasres would have to eat money to move Olivera? Of course.

It was a bad asset swap, ours just came with a bit more value at a higher price.

You realize we didn't pay even money for Kemp, right? We got to unload a guy the Padres DFA'd.

[UNCBlue012]

I do get a kick out of Kemp being an "old vet" at 31 when Bautista is at a sub .800 OPS with a couple years on the decline at age 36

I tend to agree. People are so down on Matt Kemp, but I think he's a decent middle-of-the-order power bat that COULD come into being a legit player for us. He has a couple seasons. I know the stats don't show him trending up, but who knows. It was worth a shot.

[zbhargrove]

Wouldn't have to trade the farm for one year of Donaldson. Bautista has shown regression but could be had much cheaper than Kemp.Bautista's "clear regression" has him posting a 114 wRC+ Kemp the last 2 years has posted a 109 and 102 wRC+. So regressing Bautista>Kemp. ALso Bautista isn't one of the worst defenders in baseball. Reddick the last 2 years has a 117 and 102 wRC+. I tihnk with Kemp you have to realize that he is so bad defensively he has to be great offensively to even be a semi-acceptable player. Reddick is also a much better defender than Kemp, and again, would be much cheaper. If I could have Bautista for 3/39 or Reddick for 4/40 or Kemp at 3/55, it's a gimme which one I'll take.

We are paying $8 mil a year for Kemp. That's not very expensive. The improvement of Reddick or Bautista hardly moves the needle. Donaldson is still one of the best players in baseball. Even if it's just one year it's going to take a huge package.

[clvclv]

Bautista would be brought in to be a 6 hitter righty with power. Not a star of course, but he wouldn't be paid like a star, could be had for 3 years and under 40 million. Heck could maybe be much cheaper like 3/30.

Boy oh boy...I sure would love to have some of whatever you're smoking.

[Enscheff]

I tend to agree. People are so down on Matt Kemp, but I think he's a decent middle-of-the-order power bat that COULD come into being a legit player for us. He has a couple seasons. I know the stats don't show him trending up, but who knows. It was worth a shot.

I don't think there is any doubt whatsoever that Kemp can rebound and become the RHed middle of the order hitter this teams needs to pair with Freeman. The issues with Kemp stem from every other aspect of his game when he isn't holding a bat, and the fact he has serious injury concerns. At age 31 it is highly unlikely he gets better defensively, on the bases, or healthier.

To me, the Kemp acquisition was a clear sign the FO has conceded the team will not compete in 2017, mostly because of how badly the upper level pitchers (Wisler, Sims and Newcomb) have progressed this year. Without 2 of those guys filling out the rotation, the Braves aren't going to be good enough in 2017 no matter what other moves they make. If those pitchers and Swanson showed more progress this year, I have a feeling a much better player would have been acquired for LF.

Kemp is a relatively cheap "name" to pitch to the casual fans that the Braves are trying to win...just like Markakis was a couple years ago.

[chop2chip]

I don't think there is any doubt whatsoever that Kemp can rebound and become the RHed middle of the order hitter this teams needs to pair with Freeman. The issues with Kemp stem from every other aspect of his game when he isn't holding a bat, and the fact he has serious injury concerns. At age 31 it is highly unlikely he gets better defensively, on the bases, or healthier.

To me, the Kemp acquisition was a clear sign the FO has conceded the team will not compete in 2017, mostly because of how badly the upper level pitchers (Wisler, Sims and Newcomb) have progressed this year. Without 2 of those guys filling out the rotation, the Braves aren't going to be good enough in 2017 no matter what other moves they make. If those pitchers and Swanson showed more progress this year, I have a feeling a much better player would have been acquired for LF.

Kemp is a relatively cheap "name" to pitch to the casual fans that the Braves are trying to win...just like Markakis was a couple years ago.

Despite our overall disagreement on the Kemp acquisition in general, I agree with this 100%.

[Bob Horner]

The Swisher and Bourn trade was about getting Chris Johnson and his 10 million off the books for 2017.

I think the overall direction of the rebuild is the correct one. There are multiple ways you can score runs, but none of that matters without solid pitching. There's been some really goofy moves (the acquisition of Swisher and Bourn was really odd). Going forward, we are going to have to beef up the offense (another consistent power hitter or power platoon would be ideal), but the foundation appears to be one that can be built upon. If guys like Ruiz and Dustin Peterson can step in and contribute, that would provide a lot of help.

I never bought the 2017 line. It's going to be a couple of years beyond that before we're there.

[50PoundHead]

The Swisher and Bourn trade was about getting Chris Johnson and his 10 million off the books for 2017.

I realize that. It was just odd that they even kept Swisher around.

[Bob Horner]

Please share with me!

Boy oh boy...I sure would love to have some of whatever you're smoking.

[Bob Horner]

They tried to get a prospect or bag of balls out of him. Unfortunately, it didn't work.

I realize that. It was just odd that they even kept Swisher around.

[clvclv]

Please share with me!

Don't get me wrong - zito's definitely right about Bautista not getting what HE thinks he ought to ($25 million or more per), but I have serious doubts about whether his pride will let him play for $10 million per.