Plus there is always the option of a mid-season trade if the in-house candidates don't pan out. Going in-house initially is a calculated risk worth taking imo.Originally Posted by clvclv
Plus there is always the option of a mid-season trade if the in-house candidates don't pan out. Going in-house initially is a calculated risk worth taking imo.
While I completely disagree that Wren should just let the 2B fodder currently on the roster compete for the 2B job in ST, I am totally on board with the idea of NOT signing a guy like Ellis or Infante. There is no point in bringing in another mediocre option for 2B since there are already plenty of those options on the roster.
Either fix 2B, or let it ride. Don't waste money on lateral moves.
Who do you suggest bringing in, then?
Was never on that bandwagon, but willing to wait and see how things play out. He might be fine. Doing cartwheels over a prospect, especially repeatedly, on a message board just isn't my M.O. You will, however, see an honest impression after actually seeing them play. Four games is by no means definitive, but it is a snapshot.
Until at least next year, winning a playoff series will excite me more than a hot streak in the AFL.
Nobody was even mentioning him until about month ago, and only one person was aware of him. The guy from BA, who's probably actually watched him play, had him ranked as only 14th top Braves prospect. Overreaction to the Uggla situation here. Somebody else already as much as admitted as such.
It used to be the organization, that hyped the prospects. Brad Komminsk was Dale Murphy Jr. George Lombard was going to patrol the OF for years. They came and went after significant investment. Now, it's the fans. In terms of "expanded knowledge," this isn't very convincing. It's mostly college kids, spending entirely too much time on the internet and probably not enough time with female companionship.
The Marte example was hardly absurd. He was going to provide a decade of Gold Gloves with Mike Schmidt power, forcing Chipper into an early retirement even. Then there was the man-love for the mediocrity of Kelly.
Wait a minute...you mean to tell me that fans are optimistic about their prospects? That's just offensive!
A lot of people (even outside Braves fans and people in the org.) thought very highly of Marte. Guess what? Some prospects bust.
Again, no one is saying LaStella is bound to be a star. But, people look at his tools and feel he good be a really good fit into this lineup. God ****ing forbid.
I've pushed for trades to bring in Kendrick, Phillips or Kinsler. Kendrick is clearly #1 choice, while Phillips and Kinsler would probably have to involve money and/or Uggla somehow.
Another less likely option would be a huge trade like Kimbrel for Profar or Odor from Texas. That is the ONLY kind of return worth trading Kimbrel this offseason, in my opinion.
The point is to fix 2B with a legit MLB player, or a stud young guy that is a relatively sure bet. I do not consider TLS a sure bet, and is probably not a good enough Plan A for a WS contending team with resources in place to dramatically improve the largest hole on the roster.
Instead of getting wrapped up in the hype, try going to a game and judging for yourself. Everybody (present company included) had high hopes for Marte, earlier on, but a couple of us tried to convey impressions. I mentioned weight and conditioning as a potential problem. OP noticed a hole in his swing. So, there actually was discussion about the whole package from people, who actually saw him play. It required a little extra effort and paying attention, as opposed to pointing the browser to Fangraphs.
Last edited by Knucksie; 11-01-2013 at 12:28 PM.
"Nobody was even mentioning him until about month ago, and only one person was aware of him. The guy from BA, who's probably actually watched him play, had him ranked as only 14th top Braves prospect."
Wow. So you mean that no one here had ever heard of La Stella prior to a month ago?
"In terms of 'expanded knowledge,' this isn't very convincing. It's mostly college kids, spending entirely too much time on the internet and probably not enough time with female companionship."
Think we need to start checking IDs at the door???
Believe it or not, several posters here have that expanded knowledge you doubt, have seen the vast majority of prospects talked about on the board multiple times, and aren't guilty of over-hyping guys - the fact that you're not aware who they are notwithstanding, of course. Since you're in favor of stereotyping, is it safe to assume that since your screen-name is "Knucksie" that you're in the 50-60 year old range and believe that none of these young kids are ever capable of being half the player that the old-timers were?
(Sorry I wasn't able to do the cool multi-quoting thing like you did...I unfortunately know less about how to do that than I do about Braves prospects.)
Last edited by clvclv; 11-01-2013 at 12:43 PM.
Has there EVER been a statement and question a certain someone should absolutely never have made and asked publicly more than...
Kinda pathetic to see yourself as a message board knight in shining armor. How impotent does someone have to be in real life to resort to playing hero on a message board?
I'm going to agree with Knucksie here.
People were absolutely livid when Schuerholz traded Marte straight-up for Edgar Renteria (who Wren later brilliantly spun for Jair Jurrjens and Gorkys Hernandez [the latter subsequently translated, among others, into Nate McLouth].) Many were under the impression that Marte was going to be a real stud and, well, he never came close to even being a bench asset.
While I don't think it's fair to slot LaStella against Marte (we're talking two vastly different skill-sets,) I am amused to see people insert LaStella into their opening day lineups with such blind confidence. If this guy is good enough to cut it then why wasn't he called upon when we were in _dire_ need of a 2B'er at the end of this past season? Please don't counter with, "Because of his contract!"
The Braves are brilliant evaluators of talent, and the fact that they played Eliot Johnson and Phil Gosselin over LaStella speaks volumes to me about how they view him. That is, of course, not to say that; A) he won't be the Opening Day second baseman B) he won't be a significant part of this team in 2014.
My prediction: LaStella is traded this offseason.
Knucksie (11-02-2013)
I'm not counting on La Stella in particular. I just think between the in-house options (Pena, La Stella, Pastornicky, Uggla, Elliot Johnson) there is a decent chance one or a combination will do a satisfactory job. And we have the option of making a trade mid-season if none pan out. To me there is a good enough chance an in-house option will pan out to make it worth giving them a shot through the first two months of the season.
You keep saying how Gosselin and Johnson were plugged in before La Stella. Maybe there was more reasoning's behind it than the organization thinking he wasn't fit to be at the ML level. Even Bruce Manno was quoted as saying La Stella's bat is special and I really don't see them trading him after the AFL stint. La Stella is not Nick Ahmed he's proven that he's a much better hitter at every stint.
Riiiight, because his job isn't to hype prospects or anything...
What was he supposed to say? "He has a fringe MLB bat, and can't play 2b defensively. In fact, he's so bad out there he didn't even warrant a Sept call up."?
Next thing I expect to hear are the quotes from his fellow high-A teammates in the AFL claiming he has the best approach at the plate they've ever seen...in their extensive exposure to professional baseball.
I'm not saying TLS won't become a valuable MLB piece. All I'm saying is that he should not be part of Plan A when the resources are there to get a much more surefire Plan A. Pena, Pastor, and TLS will still be around as Plan B if the guy brought in gets hurt or doesn't hack it.
What do you think that reasoning was, though? I could accept a perspective of us not wanting to rush him, but you have to admit - we were pretty desperate.
Knucksie (11-02-2013)
The Braves do have a tendency of not rushing players and it's not like La Stella has a ton of at bats in the minors. I think letting him the play in the AFL and playing in the post season in the minors may have been the right idea. Also, who is to say FG would have played La Stella over his man crush Elliot Johnson? So we start La Stella's clock for 25 AB's??
I mean can you explain why they called up Bethancourt to get 1 AB? Made no sense to me really. Who knows what they are really thinking.
Ok, we keep hearing that he's a terrible defender like how Gattis was proclaimed to never be able to play C at the ML level by most scouts, right? He just miraculously became solid after winter ball and now no one questions him defensively? I also didn't realize that every position player in the majors has to be above average defensively and be a burner on the base paths. You know I wonder what they said about Pedroia's defense when he was a minor league player? Please, don't state because he has won a gold glove means he's a great defensive player because that's not the case. I mean Jeter won how many gold gloves while Omar Vizquel played in the AL during the same time.
The fact that we're still a mid-market club that needs to be leery of starting players' service-time clocks before they're absolutely ready comes to mind.
Count me as one of those who wants to see it before I'm completely sold (like many of the naysayers), but also as one of those who has seen La Stella several times personally. While I'm far from anointing him as a future All-Star, I also believe he has the plate discipline, eye, and makeup to be an above-average regular at the position.
The reasoning behind the Gosselin call-up and Johnson signing were pretty simple IMO - the organization is well-aware that Gosselin will never be a regular, but they needed someone capable of playing 2B...Pena, Uggla and Patornicky were on the DL, and Johnson was still in KC. Considering Pastornicky and La Stella are the next two internal options at the position and hope existed that Uggla's surgery was actually going to help "fix" him, there was absolutely no reason to start La Stella's clock prematurely (hence the Johnson desperation signing). Looking at the situation in the overall scheme of things (long-term, not 2013), I'd think it'd be tough to argue Wren's perspective - "If we don't have enough offense to compete in Heyward, Justin, Freeman, Mac, Johnson, Simmons, and Gattis, we're not winning anything unless we add a significant producer in Uggla's place." The organizational philosophy has always remained consistent - they're willing to turn the keys over to young kids when they are convinced that they're "ready" to be helpful every day, but they're NOT going to start their clocks before the brass is convinced that time is now. The production difference between Uggla/Johnson/Gosselin and a wide-eyed La Stella in the heat of the postseason was going to be negligible at best, so they weren't going to start his clock.
Unfortunately the Braves will continue to have to make decisions like this until ownership changes and service-time and arbitration eligibility aren't overriding issues.
Has there EVER been a statement and question a certain someone should absolutely never have made and asked publicly more than...
Kinda pathetic to see yourself as a message board knight in shining armor. How impotent does someone have to be in real life to resort to playing hero on a message board?
Perhaps if the team were to annoint La Stella as the new starting 2nd baseman it would make moving Uggla that much more difficult. I think the one thing that we can all agree on is that Uggla needs to be moved and Eliot Johnson isnt an adequate replacement. Pretty much should be acknowledged about Pastornicky and Pena as well.
If anxious roster shuffling results in Uggla being released and prematurely replaced by TLS, TLS then becomes a 13.5M rookie with the associated pressure that would entail.
That's all I want. I don't care if his bat doesn't become Matt Carpenter or Dustin Pedroia's but I think it will be similar. We led the NL is home runs this past season and where did that get us? A ton of inconsistent hitters. Freddie Freeman is the size of a college DE and he's not mashing 30-40 HR's but he's far and away our best hitter and most consistent. I just want a guy who can get on base, hits when runners are on, is consistent at the plate, and draws walks. Which is something La Stella has done his entire career. I'm tired of seeing 1 out with a runner on 2nd and we fail time after time to bring those guys in because of the hitters we have.
The bitching about us discussing LaStella is more overblown than what we're saying about LaStella. At least the vast majority of us.
He's getting very favorable reviews from scouts at the AFL from what I'm hearing. We don't have a clear 2B option.
Getting Kendrick would be all well and good, but at what price? Do you wanna trade Sims+ for him? I sure don't. And I think they'd want a very good piece or two along with Sims to trade him. So as far as that goes, I'd rather give LaStella a shot in ST than trade some very good pieces for a good, not great, 2B. I know, that's completely outrageous, I need to tame my enthusiasm, what am I thinking? At some point, LaStella has to get a shot. I'm not sure if there's a better time to try than this season. He can't be worse than Uggla. His patience could look nice in our lineup. Could he totally flop? Of course.
I just don't get the incessant bitching about us discussing a prospect. Please show me where anyone is proclaiming him a potential all-star. Please show me where someone projected him for insane numbers this year. Don't worry, I'll wait. If you don't want to partake in talking about him, then don't. I don't give a ****, really.
I don't know why I don't just ignore the whining about talking about our team.
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