Gonzalez or Wren; who's your goat?

[Lenny]

I see a lot of people complain about Fredi Gonzalez on here and I'm not so sure I feel the same way. At the beginning of the season, or even before it started, I looked at the roster and thought to myself, this is a team that will make it into the playoffs and then out in the first round.

I thought that because of a team that hits a lot of home runs, and or strikes out a lot. Usually players that strike out a lot and hit for a lot of power build big stats on lower level pitchers. I mean if you think about it, about 20 percent of your games should be against the 5 starter on the other team. That's about 32 games, so why wouldn't a power hitter be able to feast on those pitchers and hit at least 32 home runs a year? The problem is those players aren't in the playoffs.

At the beginning of the season I saw that as a major problem for this team. Several of our players where with other teams last year so it's not our coaching staff that made them be who they are, they just are that type of hitter. To me, that all falls on Wren, not Gonzalez. This team did exactly what I expected of it this year, and my expectations were the result of the team that was assembled on the field, not in the way it was managed.

[JohnAdcox]

Is there a Terry McGuirk option?

[Dalyn]

I blame Kimbrel. Time to get a closer who can push himself in the biggest game of the year.

[stpeteirish]

Fredi is not the guy to push us over the top and Wren has a pretty bad track record on his major transactions so I'd have no remorse if either or both went away tomorrow, they could both be easily replaced with someone who would be at least even money to be better.

But goat? Are you serious? We won 93 games. That's not "lets start firing people" territory. I don't think Fredi's contract has been extended so if we regress in 2014 he's a goner. And you're right, Wren should go too.

[chipchildress]

Fredi is not the guy to push us over the top and Wren has a pretty bad track record on his major transactions so I'd have no remorse if either or both went away tomorrow, they could both be easily replaced with someone who would be at least even money to be better.

But goat? Are you serious? We won 93 games. That's not "lets start firing people" territory. I don't think Fredi's contract has been extended so if we regress in 2014 he's a goner. And you're right, Wren should go too.

that bj upton contract alone should get somebody fired.

[yeezus]

Wren has had his share of mistakes, no one will deny that. Kawakami, Lowe, Uggla, BJ. He's also done good things.
They both take some blame. But Fredi made decisions in crucial situations when games were in our hand that cost us the games.

[Heyward]

Neither.

Every GM makes bad moves.

And Fredi gets WAYYY too much flack.

[yeezus]

Wren has done more positive than negative for this team. Can't say that about Fredi.
Some people won't even entertain the possibility that Fredi is just not a good manager.

[Enscheff]

Wren has pretty much flopped on every major contract the team has signed since he took over. He also seems to never, ever, be willing to sell high on an over-performing player (Hanson, Jair, Medlen, and most likely CJ this year).

On the flip side, he has been pretty excellent in every trade he has made (has there even been one that wasn't a clear "win" for the Braves?). He also does very well at collecting contributers off the scrap heap (the so called "free talent").

All in all Wren does a good job. If he could get his large contracts to work out he would be considered one of the top GMs in the game. Everyone expected Uggla to decline towards the end of his extension, but nobody could have forseen his dramatic fall. BJ was clearly overpaid, but again, nobody could have predicted last season.

Fredi does a lot of dumb stuff, but there is a lot more to managing a MLB ballclub than strategic decisions made during the game. Like I have said before, BP usage for the playoffs was likely discussed by the entire leadership of the organization before the series even started. That means Roger was in on the decision too, and everyone here just spent the last week taking turns putting their nose up his ass while calling him an integral piece of the team. Limiting Kimbrel to 4 outs was almost certainly not a decision made by Fredi alone, so laying the blame at his feet for the NLDS loss is pretty idiotic.

[Heyward]

Wren has done more positive than negative for this team. Can't say that about Fredi.
Some people won't even entertain the possibility that Fredi is just not a good manager.

He makes his fair share of mistakes but hes nowhere near as bad as some on here like to think he is.

[Orphan Black]

But goat? Are you serious? We won 93 games. That's not "lets start firing people" territory. I don't think Fredi's contract has been extended so if we regress in 2014 he's a goner. And you're right, Wren should go too.

They won 96 games and had the third best record in baseball.

People who believe the season was a failure will never be satified. Even if they won the world series people would have found stuff to b!tch about.

[yeezus]

Fredi does a lot of dumb stuff, but there is a lot more to managing a MLB ballclub than strategic decisions made during the game. Like I have said before, BP usage for the playoffs was likely discussed by the entire leadership of the organization before the series even started. That means Roger was in on the decision too, and everyone here just spent the last week taking turns putting their nose up his ass while calling him an integral piece of the team. Limiting Kimbrel to 4 outs was almost certainly not a decision made by Fredi alone, so laying the blame at his feet for the NLDS loss is pretty idiotic.

When it comes down to it, Fredi is the manager. He ultimately makes the decisions. It seemed the clear option at that time was to use the best RP in baseball. Despite what was potentially discussed or agreed on, our best guy did not get used in the most crucial game of the season. That falls on Fredi's shoulders. He has the power to make the logical move, and he failed to do so. As the manager, that becomes your fault. That's part of being the manager.

[yeezus]

They won 96 games and had the third best record in baseball.

People who believe the season was a failure will never be satified. Even if they won the world series people would have found stuff to b!tch about.

Yeah, but those wins mean little. I don't think this season was a total failure, much of it was very enjoyable. But it sucks to your squad totally falter in the playoffs...again. Not easy to be happy about that.

[Bdawg2309]

I blame Kimbrel. Time to get a closer who can push himself in the biggest game of the year.

[ChapelHillMatt]

With all the injuries we had and two of our highest paid players underperforming how can you consider a 96 win season a failure? People are spoiled rotten. We weren't even supposed to win the division this year. I'd say we overachieved if anything. Fredi and Wren both did a good job putting together a championship caliber club. Fans will never be satisfied.

[Enscheff]

When it comes down to it, Fredi is the manager. He ultimately makes the decisions. It seemed the clear option at that time was to use the best RP in baseball. Despite what was potentially discussed or agreed on, our best guy did not get used in the most crucial game of the season. That falls on Fredi's shoulders. He has the power to make the logical move, and he failed to do so. As the manager, that becomes your fault. That's part of being the manager.

Correct. However, claiming another manager would have made any other decision is absurd. No other manager would have went against the organizational decision to pitch Kimbrel 4 innings.

[yeezus]

smh. One person says the word "failure" and suddenly, everyone here said the season was a failure...when in fact, no one said that.

[ChapelHillMatt]

Wren has done more positive than negative for this team. Can't say that about Fredi.
Some people won't even entertain the possibility that Fredi is just not a good manager.

I'll say it again, only posters on this board consider him a bad manager. He's well respected in the game of baseball.

[Heyward]

How many teams in the playoffs used their closer for 6 outs?

Answer, not many.

Fredi makes his fair share of mistakes but people always blame him after every little thing that goes wrong.

We won 96 games despite missing Heyward for a chunk of the year, lost EOF/Venters for the year, Uggla/BJ essentially did nothing.

They kinda overachieved if anything, shrugs.

Fredi is no different than any other manager who are far from perfect.

I already said this, if they were gonna use him for 6, do it for a clean inning, not with Puig at 2nd who possibly could of scored.

[Heyward]

Yeah, but those wins mean little. I don't think this season was a total failure, much of it was very enjoyable. But it sucks to your squad totally falter in the playoffs...again. Not easy to be happy about that.

Sure, but Fredi doesnt make pitches or hit.

It's up to the players to execute.

Is it Fredi's fault Kershaw was dominant Game 1, is that on him?

Is it Fredi's fault Julio got rocked in Game 3?

Is it Fredi's fault we had pretty much 2-3 players hit all series, cant win like that.

The hate Fredi gets is out of damn control.