Knew somebody would remember! That was him, Travis Wilson.Originally Posted by 50PoundHead
Knew somebody would remember! That was him, Travis Wilson.
Let me tell you, I'm seething over here ...
Meanwhile, in reality, I'm actually somewhat entertained by the multitude of excuses 'people' have conjured up as to why the Braves didn't call on LaStella in August or September. You insinuate that he's a special ballplayer - special enough to get a big league shot, that is - but I'll reiterate, again, as it doesn't seem to be resounding, that our situation at the end of the season was extreme. We were headed into the playoffs with a glaring hole at second, offense stuttering, and team morale questionable. Why not run LaStella out there? There was simply more to gain than to lose considering the circumstances.
There are plenty of well-documented cases of players getting called up from AA (or even A) to help their teams out in October, arby clock be damned. Let me explain something to you: when you are trying to win a championship, you exhaust all possible means of improving your team.
I have never explicitly stated that I don't want to give LaStella a chance to win the starting job, however I don't think he's the solution, and I question whether the Braves think he is either.
Fredi loved EJ. That had something to do with it.
yeezus (11-04-2013)
I think he's special because he deserves a shot to win a job this year? Are you kidding? Or are you unaware of what "special" means when discussing athletes?
I don't think there are a multitude of excuses for anything. Why didn't he get get called up to start in the playoffs? Because he was an inexperienced rookie who, by most accounts, doesn't play great defense; clearly, the Braves preferred going with the guy who could at least play solid D in EJ over a rookie who had never played in the MLB. The Braves aren't, and never have been, the type of org. to call up players after 80 games in AA to play significant time in the playoffs. That's not a "multitude" of excuses, that's one explanation. Do you need the definitions of "special," "excuses," "explanations," and "multitude"?
Can you find these documented cases of the Braves calling up A or barely AA players coming up in a playoff run? And there are degrees. If they are known as a stud prospect, it's different. A guy like LaStella, who is a question mark, will not get that call from a team like the Braves. Just not how they do things.
So, please explain how what I said above is a "multitude of excuses." The Braves not calling an inexperienced rookie to play in the playoffs does not mean they don't like him or think he can play. Not at all. The situation, to them, didn't call for a rookie to come in and play.
I'd rather see what he can do than trot a known blackhole out there. He had half a season in AA, has hit well in AFL (albeit a hitters league), has never not hit, and gives the lineup good balance with a lack of Ks and a good eye. So I think he should be given a shot, and I suspect he'll win the job if he's given a real shot in ST. I know, I know, I'm a rabid, stupid fan for thinking like this. You have your opinion and I have mine. You're making just as many, if not more, assumptions as I am.
That just speaks them doing things "old school," which Fredi proved pretty much all the time. Not using Kimbrel in the 8th. Not giving the rook a shot in favor of guys like Uggla and EJ. Starting guys like Freddy Garcia. This team favored veterans over rookies pretty frequently. So La Stella not getting the call in the playoffs, to me, doesn't mean the Braves don't like him and don't think he can play. That's just an assumption with very little evidence.
Are you actually beginning your counter-point by drawing attention to my usage of the word special? Please actually read what I wrote, in context.I think he's special because he deserves a shot to win a job this year? Are you kidding? Or are you unaware of what "special" means when discussing athletes?
I said, "You insinuate that he's a special ballplayer - special enough to get a big league shot, that is ...
In this thread I've read:I don't think there are a multitude of excuses for anything. Why didn't he get get called up to start in the playoffs? Because he was an inexperienced rookie who, by most accounts, doesn't play great defense; clearly, the Braves preferred going with the guy who could at least play solid D in EJ over a rookie who had never played in the MLB. The Braves aren't, and never have been, the type of org. to call up players after 80 games in AA to play significant time in the playoffs. That's not a "multitude" of excuses, that's one explanation. Do you need the definitions of "special," "excuses," "explanations," and "multitude"?
- The Braves didn't call up LaStella because they didn't want to start his arbitration clock.
- The Braves didn't call up LaStella because he's an 'inexperience rookie with poor defense.'
- The Braves didn't call up LaStella because Fredi loved EJ.
- The Braves didn't call up LaStella because they don't call up A-Ball rookies in September.
- The Braves didn't call up LaStella because they are 'old school.'
multitude |ˈməltəˌt(y)o͞od|
noun
a large number
You aren't rabid (whatever that means) or stupid, but you are using arguments that, to me, confound themselves. You said several pages back in this thread that you were tired of people bitching about LaStella. So I chimed in and asked exactly what it was about LaStella that got people so excited because it only seems logical that if LaStella is the natural choice to be given a real shot this spring he would've been seriously considered at some point during this past season when we had a real problem at second. It seems weak to say that the sole reason was his inexperience, but then act as though a handful of AFL/GFL ABs are somehow the cure-all which gives LaStella the seasoning needed to become 'experienced.' You bring up the Braves having an old-school mentality, but wouldn't that also count as a strike against LaStella because of his poor defense? I guess I'm just trying to figure out exactly what you think. That's not to say you are wrong.I'd rather see what he can do than trot a known blackhole out there. He had half a season in AA, has hit well in AFL (albeit a hitters league), has never not hit, and gives the lineup good balance with a lack of Ks and a good eye. So I think he should be given a shot, and I suspect he'll win the job if he's given a real shot in ST. I know, I know, I'm a rabid, stupid fan for thinking like this. You have your opinion and I have mine. You're making just as many, if not more, assumptions as I am.
Last edited by Hawk; 11-04-2013 at 01:58 PM.
Right, so you directly contradicted yourself. Do you not think he's "special" enough to be given an opportunity to earn it?
A lot of those "excuses" go hand-in-hand. Why did Fredi much prefer a guy like EJ? Why wouldn't they want to throw a rookie who played 80 games in AA who doesn't play great (I haven't heard anyone say recently that his defense is poor) defense in to the playoff fire? Because as Fredi has shown, he does things "by the book" and yes, more old school - as in, he prefers veterans to rookies. Especially when they're unsure of the rookie's defense. I wanted him called up and used. The Braves not doing so does not prove in any way that they don't like him. They have no track record of making such a move in that situation.
Again, I asked you to provide examples of the Braves using a guy like LaStella in that type of situation. Have you found any? Or did you ignore that request on purpose? If you make statements, back them up.
You keep putting forth strawman arguments. When did I say his AFL time gave him "the seasoning needed to become experienced"? What I specifically said, countless times, was that he deserves a shot to win a job out of spring training. I'd rather he get his initial ML experience during the regular season than in the playoffs. If he plays during the regular season, that will give him better experience for the playoffs than playing in AA for 80 games. Was he experienced enough for the playoffs this year? The Braves didn't think so, and I get that. But that's really not what my point is. At all.
I've said nothing even moderately confusing. It's pretty clear what I think, and if you don't think so...your comprehension is not my problem. There are several reasons the Braves wouldn't use him in the playoffs, in that situation. So, to be clear, are you saying because they didn't use a rookie in the playoffs, that can ONLY mean they don't like him as a player? There are NO other possibilities? What exactly are YOU saying?
To lay out, once again, what I think: Not using LaStella in the playoffs is understandable and makes sense, especially when looking at the Braves' track record. He had played 80 games in AA, the org. was unsure of his defense, and chose to go with a known, defensively sound 2B. It's very silly to suggest that because they didn't use him, they simply don't think he can play. There are many reasons they wouldn't use him there. I also think that he deserves a shot to win a job out of ST. The team will get to watch him against ML players and will have a better idea of what kind of player he is and can be. I suspect he will show enough to win the job, and I'd prefer giving him a shot over trading for another albatross contract in BP, or trotting Uggla out there, or trading very good pieces for someone else.
He will be a question mark until he gets a shot. I think he's done enough to this point to get a shot in ST. As a mid-market team, we need to take risks with guys like LaStella over getting rid of young players for older players, or taking on longer contracts that are bad.
My problem with TLS is not that I don't think he can be a solid MLB regular. My problem is that a WS contending team with resources to burn doesn't need to go into a season with a player like TLS as Plan A at 2B. Especially not when everyone already knows BJ is a potentially HUGE hole in CF.
If there was a highly touted player like Frenchy, Mac, Hanson, Heyward, Freeman, Simmons or Teheran ready to step in at 2B, then sure, give him a shot as Plan A. I think we all can agree TLS is not anywhere near that level, so it is foolish to rely on him. We already saw this play out when fringe guys like Thorman and Pastor (mediocre prospects everyone thought would be "good enough" at league minimum) were handed jobs and failed miserably.
The Braves are not some rebuilding team with a $50M payroll trying to field a .500 ballclub, just hoping to be in the WC discussion during the final 1/3rd of the season.
The Braves are a serious WS contender with a $100M+ payroll that has a huge, gaping, bleeding, puss filled hole at 2B. Resources need to go where the largest impact can be made, and that is at 2B.
Last edited by Enscheff; 11-04-2013 at 02:29 PM.
Hawk (11-04-2013)
I see what you're saying.
But, we don't really have "resources to burn" IMO. We have young guys that need to be re-signed and are a mid-market ballclub with a mid-market payroll.
I'm not inherently opposed to getting a guy like Kendrick, but I think it will cost way too much for a player of his caliber.
You can't have all-stars everywhere. Heyward, JUp, Freeman, CJ, Simmons should provide enough offense. Along with our solid pitching, I think we could do worse than LaStella (like uggla, or EJ). The Red Sox went in to the season with Daniel Nava in LF. Jon Jay, Pete Kozma, David Freese for the Cards, and they handed the keys to Carpenter.
I think La Stella has a shot. My guess is that he wasn't brought up this year for two reasons:
(1) The baseball people who watch him every day didn't think he was ready.
(2) He doesn't have to go on the 40-man roster until after next season. If you bring him up and he proves not to be ready, you're basically carrying him a year longer than you have to and when push comes to shove, the front office wanted extra slots open on the 40-man roster for this off-season. No one talks about this point a lot, but I think it had as much to do with the Braves' decision as anything else. It would be different if La Stella was a can't-miss guy and as well as he has performed, I don't think even his most ardent fans would put him in that category.
No. It's only because the Braves don't think he can play. I know this.
Honestly, how could I possibly contradict myself when I was making a statement attempting to frame your position?Right, so you directly contradicted yourself. Do you not think he's "special" enough to be given an opportunity to earn it?
Again, I ignored that request because if you had a semblance of reading comprehension you would have understood that I said, "There are plenty of well-documented cases of players getting called up from AA (or even A) to help their teams out in October, arby clock be damned."Again, I asked you to provide examples of the Braves using a guy like LaStella in that type of situation. Have you found any? Or did you ignore that request on purpose? If you make statements, back them up.
Where in those sentences does it say anything about the Braves? I also like how you keep conveniently modifying the parameters of your 'request.' I made a blanket statement about players called up by TEAMS for playoff purposes that you have since countered with, 'Well, the Braves have never done this!' to more recently, 'Well, the Braves have never done it was a guy like LaStella!' What does that mean, like LaStella? You mean the guy with the horrible defense that "hits everywhere" -- and by everywhere you mean Sally Ball through AA and the AFL?
In what situation? I thought there was only one explanation?There are several reasons the Braves wouldn't use him in the playoffs, in that situation.
This is the interesting part. I haven't actually said much of anything when it comes to LaStella. I have said that I don't believe he's the solution for us in 2014, and I've questioned why he wasn't called up when we really needed him in August/September (for the record, I think we should have called him up then.) That's it, really. I haven't attacked his defense, his hitting, his age. I've just sat back and picked at your singular contention (that has somehow morphed into about five different diversions) that he wasn't called up in 2013 because his defense was poor and he was inexperienced, then watch you get flustered as I have attempted to explain why, now from several different angles, that reasoning didn't make any sense to me. This is perhaps why you are upset -- you assume just because I'm questioning you about LaStella means that I'm automatically against him. Not the case.So, to be clear, are you saying because they didn't use a rookie in the playoffs, that can ONLY mean they don't like him as a player? There are NO other possibilities? What exactly are YOU saying?
The braves eventually have to sign Freeman, Heyward and who ever else they feel the need to keep long term. Who should the braves go get? Kindrick? Say bye to Medlen. Kinsler? Say bye to Medlen+. Phillips? Say buy to Uggla+a player we don't want to trade.
TLS playing 2b and batting 8th is not going to kill this team. Not getting a SP and signing Freeman or Heyward long term will.
Ok, more of an oxymoron, sorry.
What do other teams have to do with the Braves, though? Other teams may do things like that. This organization never (or rarely) has. When you say "plenty of examples," that means nothing. Because we aren't talking about every team. Correct?
Yes, it's important to point out that a player of LaStella's ilk probably won't get called up in those situations. Yes, a player more highly-regarded and with a high-ceiling is more likely to get that opportunity at that time. Do you disagree with that? I'm not changing anything. I'm clarifying.
The one explanation is that entering the playoffs, the Braves were not going to call up an inexperienced rookie with questionable defense. You can expand on that all you want. So when I say "They preferred a guy like EJ who at least they know will play solid defense," that goes hand-in-hand with "...not going to call up an inexperienced rookie with questionable defense to play in the playoffs." The two aren't "two different excuses," they're mutually inclusive of each other. Why did they prefer a guy like EJ? Because, and the definition of the term is subjective-ish, they are "oldschool," or they don't often make moves like that with guys like LaStella. If he played Simmons defense, they give him the call. If he was a stud offensively, he gets the call. Since he's more of a question mark in both areas, they decided not to throw him out there in that situation. I disagree with it, but I believe that's more reasonable than "oh we don't think he can play in 2014." Seeing what he can do in ST and the beginning of the season is not the same as seeing what he can do in the playoffs. I'm surprised I have to spell this out for you. You're outsmarting yourself, buddy.
All you're arguing is semantics. I think it's silly to suggest the Braves don't think he's a possible solution in 2014 just because they didn't call him up for the playoffs.
Last edited by yeezus; 11-04-2013 at 08:11 PM.
Medlen for Kendrick? Sign me up.
Dayton Moore, is that you?
Both are about 3 WAR players, but Medlen has a lower salary.
You are treating the situation as though the Braves had some bona fide option at second. My contention all along has been that LaStella was leaps and bounds a better alternative at second than EJ/Uggla/Janish/Gosselin. And let's suppose that he wasn't -- what harm would have come from giving him some playing time in August, when our playoff slot was virtually assured? I hear what you are saying about the old-school mentality of wanting strong defense at the keystone (especially during the playoffs,) but I don't feel as though that is necessarily applicable within the scenario I just posited.What do other teams have to do with the Braves, though? Other teams may do things like that. This organization never (or rarely) has. When you say "plenty of examples," that means nothing. Because we aren't talking about every team. Correct?
Suppose further that LaStella was called up and performed quite well. Again, what would have been lost? A year of arbitration eligiblity? It would seem to me that the arbitration status of 'a player of LaStella's ilk' wouldn't matter that much in the grand scheme of things anyways. It didn't seem to matter much to the Braves in the case of Phil Gosselin.
Generally speaking, I don't disagree with that, however I think the circumstances were different in this situation.Yes, it's important to point out that a player of LaStella's ilk probably won't get called up in those situations. Yes, a player more highly-regarded and with a high-ceiling is more likely to get that opportunity at that time. Do you disagree with that? I'm not changing anything. I'm clarifying.
Deal from an area of strength by sending out a player who is likely not in the long term plans for a guy that should fix the biggest hole on the team? There might be some minor parts/cash going in either direction, but again, sign me up.
I thought I answered this with an earlier post.
(1) The staff that saw him up close didn't believe he was ready.
(2) He didn't have to be on the 40-man roster this winter and the Braves didn't want to use the spot prematurely.
A few of us thought they should have traded for Bonifacio.
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