DOTW: Is taxation theft?

[sturg33]

I'm happy to piggyback Weso's DOTW idea and bring it over the the political/religion board. So, I'll start with this one.

Is taxation theft?

[goldfly]

easy

no

what does "dotw" stand for? if it is "debate of the week", this debate is already over then

[sturg33]

My response.

Let's start with the definition:
the act of stealing; the wrongful taking and carrying away of the personal goods or property of another; larceny.

In my mind, theft would be any situation in which someone takes something from me without me voluntarily giving it to them. In other words, if someone holds a gun to my face and says for me to give them my wallet, I will give them my wallet. But that is stealing, because the consequences of not doing so would have been a violent act against me.

Look at it from the government perspective. The government says "give me 30% of your money." I have a choice. Pay them, or go to prison. Even though I don't agree at all with what the money is being used for, and absolutely am not voluntarily giving them my money, I don't see how it is not considered "socially acceptable theft"

What say you?

[thethe]

I believe the structure of the tax system is the problem and not the concept of tax.

How do you propose the infrastructure of this country survive without taxes?

[thethe]

My response.

Let's start with the definition:
the act of stealing; the wrongful taking and carrying away of the personal goods or property of another; larceny.

In my mind, theft would be any situation in which someone takes something from me without me voluntarily giving it to them. In other words, if someone holds a gun to my face and says for me to give them my wallet, I will give them my wallet. But that is stealing, because the consequences of not doing so would have been a violent act against me.

Look at it from the government perspective. The government says "give me 30% of your money." I have a choice. Pay them, or go to prison. Even though I don't agree at all with what the money is being used for, and absolutely am not voluntarily giving them my money, I don't see how it is not considered "socially acceptable theft"

What say you?

You could leave the Country. That is another choice as opposed to going to jail.

[sturg33]

You could leave the Country. That is another choice as opposed to going to jail.

That doesn't address my question... You could leave the country for any reason. I'm asking, is the concept of forceful taxation theft, and if not, why is it different?

[thethe]

That doesn't address my question... You could leave the country for any reason. I'm asking, is the concept of forceful taxation theft, and if not, why is it different?

It is not theft because you don't have to pay. You can choose to leave. So if you compare it to your scenario you have more choices. It is not close to the same thing.

[CK86]

Taxation is necessary with proper oversight and checks and balances. I just wish they'd go down instead of always going up.

[thethe]

Taxation is necessary with proper oversight and checks and balances. I just wish they'd go down instead of always going up.

And thast the point I was making. The structure of the system is what is wrong and not the idea of taxes. Taxes are lessened on the wrong people (wealthy/poor) while the are raised on the wrong people (middle/upper-middle class).

[sturg33]

It is not theft because you don't have to pay. You can choose to leave. So if you compare it to your scenario you have more choices. It is not close to the same thing.

And if the governmet shuts down my accounts and alerts border patrol, how could I leave?

I could also choose to run away from the guy with the gun, but that doesn't make what he did right.

Now you can keep making all sorts of strawmans, but that doesn't help the conversation. You don't think taxation is theft, tell me why

[thethe]

And if the governmet shuts down my accounts and alerts border patrol, how could I leave?

I could also choose to run away from the guy with the gun, but that doesn't make what he did right.

Now you can keep making all sorts of strawmans, but that doesn't help the conversation. You don't think taxation is theft, tell me why

I am not saying to skip out on your tax bill currently. You can choose to close up shop and leave in the future. By living within the United States of America you are agreeing to obey the tax laws that have been VOTED into our current laws. The fact that it has gone through the established process of government to be enacted makes it 100% LEGAL!

[goldfly]

My response.

Let's start with the definition:
the act of stealing; the wrongful taking and carrying away of the personal goods or property of another; larceny.

In my mind, theft would be any situation in which someone takes something from me without me voluntarily giving it to them. In other words, if someone holds a gun to my face and says for me to give them my wallet, I will give them my wallet. But that is stealing, because the consequences of not doing so would have been a violent act against me.

Look at it from the government perspective. The government says "give me 30% of your money." I have a choice. Pay them, or go to prison. Even though I don't agree at all with what the money is being used for, and absolutely am not voluntarily giving them my money, I don't see how it is not considered "socially acceptable theft"

What say you?

it is part of the social contract

this is where i don't agree with the libertarians

taxes suck and we could argue about what the certain amount should be to be taxed and what it should be used for

but taxes are needed and is part of a better society (or should help make a better society offering services etc)

[sturg33]

I am not saying to skip out on your tax bill currently. You can choose to close up shop and leave in the future. By living within the United States of America you are agreeing to obey the tax laws that have been VOTED into our current laws. The fact that it has gone through the established process of government to be enacted makes it 100% LEGAL!

But just because something is legal doesn't make it ethical. For example, slavery was legal. The extermination of ***s was legal. And probably thousands of other examples I don't need to bother getting into. Cause you're smart enough to understand that legality does not equal ethical.

[thethe]

But just because something is legal doesn't make it ethical. For example, slavery was legal. The extermination of ***s was legal. And probably thousands of other examples I don't need to bother getting into. Cause you're smart enough to understand that legality does not equal ethical.

You didn't ask if taxation was ethical.

[sturg33]

it is part of the social contract

this is where i don't agree with the libertarians

taxes suck and we could argue about what the certain amount should be to be taxed and what it should be used for

but taxes are needed and is part of a better society (or should help make a better society offering services etc)

Fair enough. And I understand that taxes are necessary to fund some important roles of government. My whole beef with taxation is involuntary taxes. It's much like I hate this Obamacare thing. It is unvolunatry, and if I don't participate, then I am breaking the law.

Income taxes are involuntary.

The obvious (at least I believe obvious) problem is the government is too massive and is too dependent on stealing from the people. I know you agree with me about national defense. But how about welfare? How about all of the debt of education? The dept of interior? The DHS? FEMA? Countless others.

All of these are massive strains on the tax payer, but it wasn't always. And we survived. Taking money from me to fund an afterschool program is theft. It is no different than me robbing someone on the street and giving that money to a homeless person. That is a crime. But the government doing it is ok.

[sturg33]

You didn't ask if taxation was ethical.

You're right, I asked if it was theft. Being legal doesn't make it not theft.

[Julio3000]

it is part of the social contract

this is where i don't agree with the libertarians

taxes suck and we could argue about what the certain amount should be to be taxed and what it should be used for

but taxes are needed and is part of a better society (or should help make a better society offering services etc)

Yep. It takes individual talent, intellect, and initiative to achieve great things in this country. It also takes a functioning social contract, stability, and infrastructure. The latter is largely a function of the collective, and not giving credence to that is a blind spot that I struggle to comprehend. If you don't want to acknowledge it, I'd suggest going to an undeveloped country—or even better, a failed state—and seeing how much your time is worth there.

[thethe]

Its not theft. Its 100% legal. Theft is illegal.

Your question is a philosophical one and not a legal one. You should phrase your initial question differently.

[thethe]

You're right, I asked if it was theft. Being legal doesn't make it not theft.

Actually, it does.

[sturg33]

Actually, it does.

No. Again, by your logic, then Hitler didn't "murder" anyone because everything he did was legal for German law.

Nonsense.