Then shame on the FO for making a decision because the fans and players wanted it and not what was best for the org.Originally Posted by Chico
Then shame on the FO for making a decision because the fans and players wanted it and not what was best for the org.
Coppy
I'm mostly just excited for the Shanks meltdown when it's announced that Snitker is out.
You neglected to mention you purposely ignored me because you realized combining lefties and righties was silly. You can aggregate stats (easy work) but your ability to understand those stats and metholdogly of creating homogenous populations is lacking. You'll grow up and learn one day sir
Natural Immunity Croc
I think it just coincided with the whole facade of 2017 with guys in 1 year deals. If we had our "manager of the future" this year everyone would be calling for his head after a losing season. I think we're going to spend some money and put a better product on the field. the new manager will get the credit for whatever increase in record we'll have, probably underservingly so, but that's the way it goes.
This is an interesting issue. I've had the impression at several points during the rebuild that the FO has made clear that they wanted the manager to manage to win. And this includes when Fredi was manager. I've been surprised at the emphasis placed on won-loss during the rebuild and my impression is this is coming from the FO. I don't know if it is PR spin. For example, one article discussed the "thundercloud" expressions on the faces of Hart and Coppy during periods when they are losing lots of games. I'm sure no one wants to lose. But there is not wanting to lose and understanding its place in the team's list of long-term priorities.
Camargo is another interesting topic. I give Snit credit for seeing something in Camargo. I've made this point elsewhere--after all that has happened this year I think the projections for Camargo and Swanson going forward look about the same. So why not go with the guy who is delivering on the field.
Last edited by nsacpi; 09-23-2017 at 08:55 AM.
"I am a victim, I will tell you. I am a victim."
"I am your retribution."
have you seen the Bowman article about the altercation between Hart and Snitker after the Mariners game...would that provide you with the kind of confirmation and reason to believe you are looking for?
beat writers generally avoid writing about stuff like this because they depend in part on the good will of the Braves to be able to do their jobs...but I guess once it is out in the open they feel free to chime in
"I am a victim, I will tell you. I am a victim."
"I am your retribution."
jpx7 (09-23-2017)
Hate playing revisionist history but Bud Black looks like he would have been a solid hire...I’m on board with Dave Martinez, a “yes man” does nothing but set the org back but if I was betting I’d say that’s absolutely the route they go...they need someone that’s not afraid to speak their mind but that’s the last thing it seems like this FO wants is to hire someone that’s willing to keep them in check
Black did a solid job in San Diego with limited talent/resources. I agree he would have been a good hire.
I know Washington has his issues, but there is one thing about him that makes him an appealing candidate to me. And this is the fact that he has been a manager at two franchises that are significantly closer to the cutting edge of the information and analytical revolution in baseball than the Braves have been. If nothing else I think he has learned something about how to consume some of the information now available to managers.
"I am a victim, I will tell you. I am a victim."
"I am your retribution."
A lot of you are saying you don't want a "yes man" while also criticizing Snit for trying to win, sometimes at the expense of developing young players (if I am reading this thread correctly).
I am not sure what you men by a "yes man." Would that be the guy who puts player development ahead of winning games in a noncompetitive season? Is it about the rebuild? Does being a yes man somehow relate to using advanced Stats in managing? Wouldn't being a "yes man" mean being on the same wavelength ans the FO? Would an example of that be sacrificing winning games now for the good of the organization?
I just want to be sure what it is we are criticizing.
Here's the thing:
Fredi should have never been fired when he was. He was owed his salary regardless so firing him in the middle of a lost season was a bad economic move. Firing him when they did required an "interim" manager which is almost always a disaster waiting to happen. You've got a new guy coming in managing to win every game regardless of the reality of punishment/reward associated with wins/losses in a lost season and regardless of the needs associated with the handling and use of young players. It takes a forceful and strong FO to manage through that and control that interim guy so the record doesn't become just enough better to be a negative with the rebuild (but not good enough to really mean anything) and the player use becomes a long term negative. When you are building a team you can't let the wants of the team and fans have any impact on your decisions. Those people don't have the battle map. They are just experiencing pain and want it to go away.
The FO fired Fredi and it cost them money and put them in a position where their options might be limited in the future by their decision on an interim manager. They elevated a "system guy" who had never in his career been considered good enough to be given a chance to manage a real ML team. They also elevated a "system guy" who had been heavily involved with many of the players at or coming to the ML roster as they elevated from within the minor league system. They also apparently didn't lay out exactly what was going to happen or be expected of Snitker when he was brought up ie. "your job is interim in nature and won't last past the end of the season. At that time, we will find a nice spot for you within the organization and a reward for your service. Until then, manage the team based upon the thought process of player development. Wins and losses are a distant second. Don't be surprised if we, the FO, have some input on things like line-ups and player usage during the season (or anything else we think we need to be involved with). If you don't want to do this or can't then let us know now, no harm no foul and we will go a different direction."
Bottom line for me is that selection of the manager was done without a clear and coordinated plan almost like everything else about the rebuild. The plan, where there has been one, has been vague and pretty meandering. They may eventually arrive at the goal but the path there hasn't been anywhere near anything approaching the most optimal.
jpx7 (09-23-2017)
Sorry Mom...please don't spank me - I realize that only a select few are allowed to call anyone out (even when they admittedly didn't read an entire post).
As for throwing crap at the wall, I've done that for years when people talk about trades, and I'm certainly not the only one. That's part of what message boards like this are for. I constantly toss out crazy ideas when others mention theirs, and often without being prompted to. You don't like mine but enjoy hearing others', that's cool - there's a way to ignore my posts. You know the old saying..."opinions are like Enscheffs, everybody's got one" - you're absolutely welcome to yours.
Has there EVER been a statement and question a certain someone should absolutely never have made and asked publicly more than...
Kinda pathetic to see yourself as a message board knight in shining armor. How impotent does someone have to be in real life to resort to playing hero on a message board?
I have also shown the difference between LH and RH velocity grades. You just have to pay attention.
By the way, the difference is about 1 MPH. Newk does not have elite velocity.
Again, I'm in a back and forth with a know nothing. I failed today as well I guess.
Last edited by Enscheff; 09-23-2017 at 12:19 PM.
There is always tomorrow
Harry,
You lost me at "Fredi shouldl have never been fired when he was."
The Braves were 9-28 and the team was about to embark on a major sales push towards the new complex. Attendance was disappointing this year as it was; can you imagine what it would have been like if that season of despair had continued indefinitely. Also, you fail to accept the reality that Fredi had given up at that point. There was no passion, no emotion at all in his final days.
I'm sure you made some good points, but it was hard to keep reading. Full-blown dissertations are not a good idea in these discussions, especially when they begin with a flawed premise. And I say that as a person guilty of them as well.
From the OP:
Some in org believe Coppy wants a "yes man" to replace Snit.
As a lifetime media person who is already sick of unnamed sources in the daily news, this is just another example of a convenient way to reinforce your point without actual facts or attribution. "Some in organization" could mean an usher or a security guard, for crissake. We've gotten to calling stuff like this "fake news" for a reason.
If you want to read a columnist who has a true connection to the org., read Nightengale. He and Schuerholz have been close since early 90s.
Knucksie (09-23-2017)
From the very beginning I've said that tanking/process is a nice idea in theory but extremely difficult to see through because most ownership can't handle the reality of losing. That's why the tankers often don't see the fruits of their labor.
Either way the FO was never going to be fired for 2017.
If that was in play, firing Snitker would not save them when they run out of rope.
I think they had other reasons for hiring Snitker, which might have been foolish. That was probably the easiest hire with the internal dynamics. They didn't have to pick Porter or Pendleton or alienate them with an outside guy. And they were able to bring back the guy the players liked and lobbied for and who had institutional good will.
Not unique to him. It's all of them. This is basically a copy & paste job from FG and then it enters into groupthink here with whatever the flavor of the month happens to be at the moment, but it dates back to Scout days.
When you press for answers, you never receive them. Nick Swisher was considered a Sabermetric dreamboat, well, just because Billy Beane had him on the A's for a while. Long before WAR was declared, OPS was de rigeur. Nick Swisher's playoff OPS numbers were abysmal, to say the least, dramatically lower than his regular reason figures. These figures were presented, but nobody could present a cogent answer as to why he was "good" and why the Braves should make an effort to obtain him. Certainly the goal should be to perform in the playoffs...right? Hopefully better at crunch time. His post season numbers were extensive enough that the "sample size" argument could not apply. Nevertheless, we did get an opportunity to try that on for size, and we saw how Nick Swisher as a Brave turned out.
We've seen other examples (sorry for the replay) with Kelly at 1.000 OPS and Jason with 6 WAR.
Part of the problem is that there's still this mentality among the ranks that it's "us vs. them." Never any nuance that there's a place for statistical analysis and traditional scouting to both be utilized to help obtain rational organizational decisions. Otherwise, if we relied strictly on the numbers, there never would have been a realistic possibility for Leo reconstruction projects. Correct? Notice that none of them participated in the thread, which listed numerous examples. Further, it wouldn't have been possible to go "worst to first." Yet, there are always these pessimistic comments here about nothing till 2019...at the soonest.
The truth is nobody knows. Forecasting is an inexact science at best. Nobody wants to examine more mundane issues, like record vs. division opponents, 1-run games after the 6th inning. That'd actually require some effort, as opposed to linking to a blog or presenting somebody else's online numbers as his own.
It's not a flawed premise. That is your opinion and you are entitled to it. But the thing is that at 9-28 the season was irrecoverably lost. It didn't matter if they finished 60-102 or 65-97 outside of position where it comes to things like the draft, the INT FA marketplace, the rule 5 draft, the waiver wire, etc. In fact, like it or not, finishing almost last is MUCH worse than finishing close to last with last place talent. To fire Fredi and eat what he is owed in a lost season when losing is the only win is a below optimal decision. The Braves did that and brought in a guy they didn't want long term but might not be easy to be rid of. And now we are where we are.
You're really projecting there, buckaroo.
"For all his tattooings he was on the whole a clean, comely looking cannibal."
It was easy to forecast the Braves being a mid 70's win team despite the notion that Kemp would play better because he was a Braves fan growing up.
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