Originally Posted by thewupk
How many World Series titles? How many pennants?
How many World Series titles? How many pennants?
That isn't the sole index of success.
"For all his tattooings he was on the whole a clean, comely looking cannibal."
That's how: through the draft, and through international signings.
They could have afforded to extent at least one of those two without moving anyone.
"For all his tattooings he was on the whole a clean, comely looking cannibal."
How many chances? A lot more then the next 5 years.
Okay. I didn't say it was.
Last edited by BedellBrave; 12-20-2014 at 12:58 AM.
Again, y'all have a different idea I suppose of how strong of a farm system Wren left the Braves with and a higher opinion of his team's construction than I do.
Hopefully, the farm system will be more quickly strengthened thru these trades, international signings (in part helped thru his trades), and then 2 or 3 years of good drafts.
Last edited by BedellBrave; 12-20-2014 at 12:50 AM.
No, I asked how many World Series titles and pennants were won between the As and Braves during that span. Wren's best teams won games - I'll give you that. But they peaked at the WC level - that was their ceiling. I'd hope for more.
I disagree with that. Two wild card teams made the World Series this year. Just getting into the playoffs is all that matters. Anything can happen after that. The Royals were an ok team in 2014. Nothing great and barely made it in. They got hot and almost won it all. The two best teams in baseball last year got sent home in the first round.
jpx7 (12-20-2014)
Just reading over some of the replies on this thread about the return for ONE year of Upton and it truly baffles me that people think we A.) were going to get a Top 25 prospect and B.) think that the return we did get wasn't very good.
1. Max Fried- Fried is most definitely the centerpiece of the deal and -even though he had TJ surgery- a very good one at that. First and most importantly, had Fried not needed and currently recovering from Tommy John surgery we would have never got him as part of the deal. He has top-of-the-rotation potential and prior to undergoing TJ surgery was ranked my MLB.com as the 31st best prospect in all of baseball, ahead of guys like: Kris Bryant, Yordano Ventura, Trevor Bauer, Kyle Crick, Joc Pederson, Andrew Heany, Clint Frazier, Julio Urias, and Marcus Stroman. With Fried now in place we could have a rotation that looks something like: Teheran, Wood, Fried, Miller, Minor when we open SunTrust Park in 2017.
2. Jace Peterson- Peterson is a similar hitter to Tommy LaStella (high average, low K's, with lots of BB's) but with MUCH more speed. Besides the speed difference between the two, Peterson -unlike LaStella- can play multiple positions including 2B, SS, and 3B. He will be a very nice piece to have on our ball club for the foreseeable future. Prior to the 2014 season (he accumulated too much service time to still be considered a prospect) he was rated as the Padres 10th best prospect by MLB.com and the 7th best by Baseball America.
3. Dustin Peterson- Peterson who is the brother of highly regarded Mariners prospect D.J Peterson plays the same position as his brother (3B). It has been said that at the same age, Dustin is considered to be the superior offensive player of the two and should give the Braves another 3B prospect to go along with Kyle Kubitza and the newly acquired Jace Peterson. Dustin's defense remains a question and it's been stated that some scouts believe he will eventually need to change positions to either first base or the outfield, but with the lack of third base prospects in our system I would imagine they give him every chance to stick at the hot corner.
4. Mallex Smith- Smith instantly becomes our best OF prospect in the organization and mainly because of his 80+ speed. Smith has drawn comparisons to Ben Revere but with more gap-to-gap power. I would imagine that Smith is our future CF whenever the time comes that the elder Upton is gone.
It's pretty apparent that the front office is targeting guys who put the ball in play, don't strike out, play good defense and can steal a base when needed.
As tough as it is to trade away a player like Justin Upton, we must consider that there was really no chance that we were going to sign him to an extension (I would have loved that) and the return we did get is much greater than the comp draft pick we would have gotten when Upton rejected the qualifying offer. Another thing to consider is the amount of money we saved in this deal can be used on a veteran SP, bench help, or even go towards signing a young international player like Moncada. So before everyone starts to crucify John Hart for centering a deal around a pitcher that just had Tommy John surgery just remember that had Fried not needed that surgery, there is no chance whatsoever that we would have been able to acquire him.
"Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon"
BedellBrave (12-20-2014), BoneThrower (12-20-2014), cajunrevenge (12-20-2014), mfree80 (12-20-2014)
We had the talent to make it the playoffs the last 2 years. The September collapses...?
goldfly (12-20-2014)
good thing about 2015 and beyond is that we won't be in a position for a September collapse
It will be the opposite. We will be in the running for a top 5 pick then we will go on an incredible September winning streak to get down to the 15th pick.
"Donald Trump will serve a second term as president of the United States.
It’s over."
Little Thethe Nov 19, 2020.
bravesnumberone (12-20-2014)
The A's are the worst example to use. They finally did what we're doing now - sold out and went for broke . Their year was 2014, ours (apparently) is 2017. Ask them how that worked out for them.
That's so wrong. Those are complete opposite strategies. Like polar opposite almost to the point where you are arguing for what we are doing.
This argument makes zero sense.
We could've won 83 games and won the World Series. St. Louis did it in 2006.
The best constructed team doesn't usually win the World Series. That's the nature of baseball. And whereas before we had a decent chance at a playoff spot and a small chance at a title, now we have basically no chance at either. Great.
Last edited by holden; 12-20-2014 at 02:53 AM.
I can see where my point could be misconstrued. I realize the A's were mortgaging their future for the present, whereas we are giving up on the next two seasons for a run in 2017.
The overarching point is that the playoffs are a crapshoot, like it or not. The worst team in baseball could beat the best team in baseball 3 times out of 5 at a pretty decent percentage - and that percentage is even higher for the fourth-best team in the league against the best.
The goal should be building towards sustainable runs at the playoffs. I realize this franchise has PTSD from past postseason failure/bad luck, but if you get into the playoffs, the season should be considered a success. In those conditions, you have about a 1/8 chance of winning the whole thing, plus or minus a few percentage points - the same as any other team.
So, the signing of BJ Upton allowed us to acquire Justin Upton by trade thus the signing of BJ Upton also caused us to trade Justin Upton
zitothebrave (12-20-2014)
And we didn't add an A+ prospect for Justin or Jason. I would have gladly taken one more year of winning over the solid guys brought back in the Justin trade or Shelby Miller and the guy with shoulder issues.
Stockholm, more densely populated than NYC - sturg
Ok.
Lets keep Jason/Justin, watch both walk, miss the playoffs and get no value for them.
No one said we jumped to the farm system in baseball but its massively better than it was when the season ended.
BedellBrave (12-20-2014)
We needed a 2B, bench, 2 SP's with little payroll to do it.
So how is it possible to do any of that.
Even if they make the playoffs, its unlikely they go far. The best move/moves were made and that is a fact.
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