Page 2 of 22 FirstFirst 123412 ... LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 426

Thread: Sherman: Braves offered Heyward 80M after 2013

  1. #21
    Voted Worst Poster
    '13, '14, '15 (Co-Winner)
    Heyward's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Posts
    22,572
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    1,251
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    2,257
    Thanked in
    1,831 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by zitothebrave View Post
    Cause the only numbers that matter are average and homers.

    He's an above average hitter on his career (about average for position) and one of the best defenders relative to position in the game. If you don't think he's a good player, that's fine, you can have whatever opinion you like no matter how wrong it is.
    He's a pretty good player but not the superstar some on here think he is.

    Mainly because of his defensive value/metrics.

  2. #22
    Approaching Buddy Hernandez Territory Mad Dog Murph's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Fayetteville NC
    Posts
    980
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    35
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    376
    Thanked in
    234 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by zitothebrave View Post
    Cause the only numbers that matter are average and homers.

    He's an above average hitter on his career (about average for position) and one of the best defenders relative to position in the game. If you don't think he's a good player, that's fine, you can have whatever opinion you like no matter how wrong it is.
    Never said he wasn't a "good" player...I just don't think he is worth what people think he is worth. At this point in his career, he is an average hitter and a great defensive player. That is not worth 100+ million a year...in any universe. Unfortunately, there are people with to much money for their own good that will pay a slightly above average (at this point) player, superstar money. It's sickening. Yes, that is my opinion, maybe your's is the one that's wrong? Nah, zito is never wrong. Just ask him.

  3. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Mad Dog Murph For This Useful Post:

    BedellBrave (05-24-2015), ChapelHillMatt (05-25-2015), NinersSBChamps (05-23-2015)

  4. #23
    Connoisseur of Minors zitothebrave's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    DANGERZONE
    Posts
    24,622
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    1,428
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    3,432
    Thanked in
    2,463 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Mad Dog Murph View Post
    Never said he wasn't a "good" player...I just don't think he is worth what people think he is worth. At this point in his career, he is an average hitter and a great defensive player. That is not worth 100+ million a year...in any universe. Unfortunately, there are people with to much money for their own good that will pay a slightly above average (at this point) player, superstar money. It's sickening. Yes, that is my opinion, maybe your's is the one that's wrong? Nah, zito is never wrong. Just ask him.
    No one has ever advocated paying Heyward 100 million A year
    Stockholm, more densely populated than NYC - sturg

  5. #24
    Sabermetric Slut
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Your Mom's Basement
    Posts
    29,668
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    1,721
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    8,744
    Thanked in
    5,837 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by thethe View Post
    Someone will pay him and that's certainly the market. I just disagree that's his true value.
    Fair enough. But if actual MLB front offices offer him that then I would think that's his true value.

  6. #25
    Sabermetric Slut
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Your Mom's Basement
    Posts
    29,668
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    1,721
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    8,744
    Thanked in
    5,837 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Mad Dog Murph View Post
    Never said he wasn't a "good" player...I just don't think he is worth what people think he is worth. At this point in his career, he is an average hitter and a great defensive player. That is not worth 100+ million a year...in any universe. Unfortunately, there are people with to much money for their own good that will pay a slightly above average (at this point) player, superstar money. It's sickening. Yes, that is my opinion, maybe your's is the one that's wrong? Nah, zito is never wrong. Just ask him.
    Ozzie Smith was once the highest paid player in baseball. Average hitters/great defenders have been paid a lot before.

  7. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to thewupk For This Useful Post:

    Braves1976 (05-23-2015), jpx7 (05-23-2015)

  8. #26
    Sabermetric Slut
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Your Mom's Basement
    Posts
    29,668
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    1,721
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    8,744
    Thanked in
    5,837 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Heyward View Post
    He's a pretty good player but not the superstar some on here think he is.

    Mainly because of his defensive value/metrics.
    Were Brooks Robinson or Ozzie Smith superstars? They were average or worse offensive players when looking at their whole careers but seemed to do ok since they got put into the HOF, for their defense.

    I don't know where this idea came from that defense doesn't matter or you can't be an elite player if you have elite defense. I just think it's funny that advanced stats support guys like Smith and Robinson for the hall of fame but for current players they just must not add up. There is a reason that so many people believe in these stats. It's because it makes sense.

  9. The Following User Says Thank You to thewupk For This Useful Post:

    Braves1976 (05-23-2015)

  10. #27
    Voted Worst Poster
    2015 (Co-Winner)
    2018 (Unanimous)
    NinersSBChamps's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    New Prague, MN
    Posts
    13,569
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    3,326
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    1,673
    Thanked in
    1,185 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by thewupk View Post
    Ozzie Smith was once the highest paid player in baseball. Average hitters/great defenders have been paid a lot before.
    Comparing Ozzie Smith and Jason Heyward is really unfair to Ozzie.

  11. The Following User Says Thank You to NinersSBChamps For This Useful Post:

    Heyward (05-23-2015)

  12. #28
    Sabermetric Slut
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Your Mom's Basement
    Posts
    29,668
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    1,721
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    8,744
    Thanked in
    5,837 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by NinersSBChamps View Post
    Comparing Ozzie Smith and Jason Heyward is really unfair to Ozzie.
    Sure. Ozzie did it for like 2 decades and is among the career leaders in defensive war. But the point stands that crap hitters with elite defense have been paid a lot of money. It's not like this is a new thing.

    I think what some people are upset about is the amount of money Heyward will likely get. But in reality it's not that much when comapred to the state of baseball right now. Replacement level to league average players are getting paid 12 million a year.

  13. The Following User Says Thank You to thewupk For This Useful Post:

    jpx7 (05-24-2015)

  14. #29
    Connoisseur of Minors zitothebrave's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    DANGERZONE
    Posts
    24,622
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    1,428
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    3,432
    Thanked in
    2,463 Posts
    That's the part people aren't grasping. Any good player we go after is gonna cost us a chunk of change. We are off an offseason that saw Jed Lawrie a 30 year old who hasn't done much of anything get a 3/23 contract. Billy Butler who's extremely one dimensional signed for 3/30. Jason who's young and still really good isn't signing for a super bargain.
    Stockholm, more densely populated than NYC - sturg

  15. The Following User Says Thank You to zitothebrave For This Useful Post:

    jpx7 (05-24-2015)

  16. #30
    Called Up to the Major Leagues
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Posts
    2,007
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    932
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    425
    Thanked in
    300 Posts
    We heard for so long that Heyward walked on water and deserved whatever he and his agent wanted at whatever length they deemed suitable.

  17. #31
    Awaiting a Promotion
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Acworth,GA
    Posts
    568
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    14
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    182
    Thanked in
    101 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Millwood1Hitter View Post
    You know some stupid fool will do it, though.
    You mean like Frank Wren giving 75M to Melvin Upton for a .243 ML average with less than 20 HR per season?

  18. #32
    Connoisseur of Minors zitothebrave's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    DANGERZONE
    Posts
    24,622
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    1,428
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    3,432
    Thanked in
    2,463 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by depley View Post
    You mean like Frank Wren giving 75M to Melvin Upton for a .243 ML average with less than 20 HR per season?
    And Upton was older and lesser of a player. And player values have gone up.
    Stockholm, more densely populated than NYC - sturg

  19. The Following User Says Thank You to zitothebrave For This Useful Post:

    Braves1976 (05-23-2015)

  20. #33
    Voted Worst Poster
    '13, '14, '15 (Co-Winner)
    Heyward's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Posts
    22,572
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    1,251
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    2,257
    Thanked in
    1,831 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by thewupk View Post
    Were Brooks Robinson or Ozzie Smith superstars? They were average or worse offensive players when looking at their whole careers but seemed to do ok since they got put into the HOF, for their defense.

    I don't know where this idea came from that defense doesn't matter or you can't be an elite player if you have elite defense. I just think it's funny that advanced stats support guys like Smith and Robinson for the hall of fame but for current players they just must not add up. There is a reason that so many people believe in these stats. It's because it makes sense.
    SO we should pay Simmons 20+ mil a year when his deal is up by this logic?

  21. #34
    Voted Worst Poster
    '13, '14, '15 (Co-Winner)
    Heyward's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Posts
    22,572
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    1,251
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    2,257
    Thanked in
    1,831 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by zitothebrave View Post
    That's the part people aren't grasping. Any good player we go after is gonna cost us a chunk of change. We are off an offseason that saw Jed Lawrie a 30 year old who hasn't done much of anything get a 3/23 contract. Billy Butler who's extremely one dimensional signed for 3/30. Jason who's young and still really good isn't signing for a super bargain.
    Who said he was?

    Some on here said they dont think he's worth the deal he may get.

  22. #35
    Voted Worst Poster
    '13, '14, '15 (Co-Winner)
    Heyward's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Posts
    22,572
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    1,251
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    2,257
    Thanked in
    1,831 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by thewupk View Post
    Fair enough. But if actual MLB front offices offer him that then I would think that's his true value.
    Not really, just because some team may offer him a ton of money doesnt mean he's worth that.

  23. #36
    Shift Leader CyYoung31's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Posts
    24,244
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    1,032
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    9,990
    Thanked in
    5,481 Posts
    I'd pay Simmons 20 million a year. Right now anyway.

  24. The Following User Says Thank You to CyYoung31 For This Useful Post:

    jpx7 (05-24-2015)

  25. #37
    Sabermetric Slut
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Your Mom's Basement
    Posts
    29,668
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    1,721
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    8,744
    Thanked in
    5,837 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Heyward View Post
    SO we should pay Simmons 20+ mil a year when his deal is up by this logic?
    Sure. If he's a league average bat and saving 25-30 runs per season with his glove then he will most certainly be worth that once his contract is up. Will the Braves pay that? Doubtful since the Braves are cheap. But he would be worth that and would get it once he's on the market.

  26. The Following User Says Thank You to thewupk For This Useful Post:

    jpx7 (05-24-2015)

  27. #38
    Sabermetric Slut
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Your Mom's Basement
    Posts
    29,668
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    1,721
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    8,744
    Thanked in
    5,837 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Heyward View Post
    Not really, just because some team may offer him a ton of money doesnt mean he's worth that.
    So you are a better judge as to what a player is worth? Worth is determined by the market and and right now the going price is like 6 million per WAR. You don't have to believe in that stat. It doesn't matter. But that is what MLB front offices believe in for the most part. They may have better formulas for offense and defense then is what readily available but I guarantee you they all use some sort of baseline of each players WAR. History has shown that elite defenders get paid. It's also shown that elite defenders have been rewarded with baseballs highest honor. Some here may not value that but it's real.

  28. #39
    It's OVER 5,000!
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    Posts
    11,323
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    795
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    3,424
    Thanked in
    2,274 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by thewupk View Post
    So you are a better judge as to what a player is worth? Worth is determined by the market and and right now the going price is like 6 million per WAR. You don't have to believe in that stat. It doesn't matter. But that is what MLB front offices believe in for the most part. They may have better formulas for offense and defense then is what readily available but I guarantee you they all use some sort of baseline of each players WAR. History has shown that elite defenders get paid. It's also shown that elite defenders have been rewarded with baseballs highest honor. Some here may not value that but it's real.
    I don't necessarily believe that market rate = player worth. This is relying on the economic principle that wage = marginal revenue product (or the value that player contributes). It's fine and dandy, but has never been proven to be actually quantifiable. $/WAR is a good baseline to attempt to do that, but the mere fact that two versions of WAR exist for the general public (and likely 30 different version for each team) shows how incredibly difficult that process is. This isn't even accounting for the fact that different players provide different values to different markets (for example, Russell Martin is more valuable to Toronto than any other team because he's Canadian and Canadians are weirdly loyal to other Canadians).

    The reality is that the "winner's curse" paradox essentially guarantees that all free agents are overpaid since typically only the team that signs that player values them that much. If I was a betting man, I would bet that the average free agent contract is going to be an overpay for that exact reason, meaning there's a really good chance Heyward gets paid a lot more than his actual worth.

  29. #40
    Very Flirtatious, but Doubts What Love Is. jpx7's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Posts
    11,903
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    47,591
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    6,441
    Thanked in
    3,830 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by chop2chip View Post
    I don't necessarily believe that market rate = player worth. This is relying on the economic principle that wage = marginal revenue product (or the value that player contributes). It's fine and dandy, but has never been proven to be actually quantifiable. $/WAR is a good baseline to attempt to do that, but the mere fact that two versions of WAR exist for the general public (and likely 30 different version for each team) shows how incredibly difficult that process is. This isn't even accounting for the fact that different players provide different values to different markets (for example, Russell Martin is more valuable to Toronto than any other team because he's Canadian and Canadians are weirdly loyal to other Canadians).

    The reality is that the "winner's curse" paradox essentially guarantees that all free agents are overpaid since typically only the team that signs that player values them that much. If I was a betting man, I would bet that the average free agent contract is going to be an overpay for that exact reason, meaning there's a really good chance Heyward gets paid a lot more than his actual worth.
    Sure, but the fact remains that all 32+ of those formulations are almost certainly and substantially more accurate than [MENTION=154]Heyward[/MENTION]-the-poster's arbitrary valuation.
    Last edited by jpx7; 05-24-2015 at 01:45 AM.
    "For all his tattooings he was on the whole a clean, comely looking cannibal."

  30. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to jpx7 For This Useful Post:

    Hawk (05-24-2015), holden (05-24-2015), sturg33 (05-24-2015), zitothebrave (05-24-2015)

Similar Threads

  1. GDT 8/17/2013: Nationals @ Braves
    By Krovahn in forum 2013 Gamethreads
    Replies: 749
    Last Post: 08-18-2013, 06:09 PM
  2. GDT 8/16/2013: Nationals @ Braves
    By Krovahn in forum 2013 Gamethreads
    Replies: 538
    Last Post: 08-17-2013, 07:14 PM
  3. GDT 8/14/2013: Phillies @ Braves
    By Krovahn in forum 2013 Gamethreads
    Replies: 503
    Last Post: 08-15-2013, 11:22 PM
  4. GDT 8/5/2013 Braves vs Nationals
    By BlackwaterPark in forum 2013 Gamethreads
    Replies: 561
    Last Post: 08-06-2013, 02:49 PM
  5. Replies: 320
    Last Post: 07-29-2013, 11:48 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •