Your Ideal Offseason

[Super]

We do "know" that Gohara and Fried will both be better than Freeman based on both past history and projections.

incorrect

i’m also still confused as to why we’d want to move them to the pen. they are both easily still potential starters and need to be given that chance.

[clvclv]

incorrect

i’m also still confused as to why we’d want to move them to the pen. they are both easily still potential starters and need to be given that chance.

Where on earth has anybody said ANY of those guys being used in the pen at points during 2019 means you have given up on them as starters???

As carp correctly points out, lots of guys who may eventually start may well get used in the pen sometime THIS year. Folty, Gausman, Teheran, and Newcomb (currently) are guaranteed rotation spots. The Braves aren't suddenly going to an 8-Man rotation - there will be times this year when Vizcaino or others are inevitably injured that any of the young arms may be called up to fill-in in the pen for a little while.

Fried and Newcomb are the most likely of the kids facing a potential move to the pen simply because of their present control issues.

[salmagundy]

my ideal off season deal would be to re-sign Anibal and

HIRE HICKEY NOW to replace Chuckie!!!

[Super]

Where on earth has anybody said ANY of those guys being used in the pen at points during 2019 means you have given up on them as starters???

As carp correctly points out, lots of guys who may eventually start may well get used in the pen sometime THIS year. Folty, Gausman, Teheran, and Newcomb (currently) are guaranteed rotation spots. The Braves aren't suddenly going to an 8-Man rotation - there will be times this year when Vizcaino or others are inevitably injured that any of the young arms may be called up to fill-in in the pen for a little while.

Fried and Newcomb are the most likely of the kids facing a potential move to the pen simply because of their present control issues.

they need to get consistent starts somewhere to see if they can potentially start.

you listed them as options to replace freeman. why would we dump freeman and then move a potential starter to the pen to save $950k? that’s a bad use of assets in fried and gohara. were you suggesting dumping freeman and then moving one of them right away? or “at points”? when do you move them back to potentially start?

[clvclv]

they need to get consistent starts somewhere to see if they can potentially start.

you listed them as options to replace freeman. why would we dump freeman and then move a potential starter to the pen to save $950k? that’s a bad use of assets in fried and gohara. were you suggesting dumping freeman and then moving one of them right away? or “at points”? when do you move them back to potentially start?

You're aware that Fried, Gohara, Wright, Touki, and Allard all spent some time in the MLB pen last year, right???

If you can't understand how one or all of them spending a week or two in the big club's pen this year does nothing to change their development plan by now, no one can explain it to you. They'd all still make 15+ starts in Gwinnett while also likely being cycled through the #5 slot in Atlanta for the rest of the season. Did you not watch last season at all?

There's no rule that says if you spend a week helping out in the big club's pen that you can't be sent back down and be stretched back out.

[bravesfanMatt]

You're aware that Fried, Gohara, Wright, Touki, and Allard all spent some time in the MLB pen last year, right???

If you can't understand how one or all of them spending a week or two in the big club's pen this year does nothing to change their development plan by now, no one can explain it to you. They'd all still make 15+ starts in Gwinnett while also likely being cycled through the #5 slot in Atlanta for the rest of the season. Did you not watch last season at all?

There's no rule that says if you spend a week helping out in the big club's pen that you can't be sent back down and be stretched back out.

We can’t rely as a primary lefty reliever a few guys spending some time in a pen. S. Freeman will appear 50 to 60 times next year. That is a lot different than cycling a few prospects through to help the big club.

[Carp]

they need to get consistent starts somewhere to see if they can potentially start.

you listed them as options to replace freeman. why would we dump freeman and then move a potential starter to the pen to save $950k? that’s a bad use of assets in fried and gohara. were you suggesting dumping freeman and then moving one of them right away? or “at points”? when do you move them back to potentially start?

I wouldn't say all of them, but I think there's a better than a decent chance Fried and/or Touki spend a good amount of time in the BP this year, possibly as our version of Josh Hader, or how we did Medlen and Wood a few years ago. At least one of them will likely make 5-10 ML starts and have between 15-20 relief appearances (or more).

[Super]

You're aware that Fried, Gohara, Wright, Touki, and Allard all spent some time in the MLB pen last year, right???

If you can't understand how one or all of them spending a week or two in the big club's pen this year does nothing to change their development plan by now, no one can explain it to you. They'd all still make 15+ starts in Gwinnett while also likely being cycled through the #5 slot in Atlanta for the rest of the season. Did you not watch last season at all?

There's no rule that says if you spend a week helping out in the big club's pen that you can't be sent back down and be stretched back out.

you keep ducking and diving here.
yes, i'm aware they spent time in the pen last year.
you advocated for using fried and/or gohara in place of freeman. that indicates to me you mean for the *year*, not for "a week helping out in the big club's pen." if they're replacing freeman, they aren't helping out for a week.
i asked what lefties we have currently that would be league-average out of the pen. not only do we have no idea if fried and gohara would be average out of the pen over a full season (considering we've never seen it), i don't want to commit to using them out of the pen just to save $950K.

on top of all that, which is the actual thing that was being discussed, at some point, both pitchers need consistent starts to be able to succeed as starters. shuttling them back and forth, in and out of the bullpen to dump an average RP and save $950K seems dumb.

[bravesguy]

You're aware that Fried, Gohara, Wright, Touki, and Allard all spent some time in the MLB pen last year, right???

If you can't understand how one or all of them spending a week or two in the big club's pen this year does nothing to change their development plan by now, no one can explain it to you. They'd all still make 15+ starts in Gwinnett while also likely being cycled through the #5 slot in Atlanta for the rest of the season. Did you not watch last season at all?

There's no rule that says if you spend a week helping out in the big club's pen that you can't be sent back down and be stretched back out.

Here is a different type of thought on this...As we stand now (assuming we don't get a true #1)

Considering, all of our pitchers (minus Folty to a small degree) pitched much better on an extra days rest.

Why not play a pseudo-6 man rotation? What I mean by that is build your rotation to always get 5 days off between starts.

It would work with Fried being the 6th starter/long man out of the pen. On weeks without an off day, he becomes the 6th starter and every starter is pushed back a day. On weeks with off day(s), he is the long man out of the pen. The first out for those 5th-7th innings.

Since he would typically pitch 2 innings each relief appearance, he should remain stretched out. Since the schedule is set in advance, you can easily plan which days he will be unavailable waiting for his next start.

[clvclv]

We can’t rely as a primary lefty reliever a few guys spending some time in a pen. S. Freeman will appear 50 to 60 times next year. That is a lot different than cycling a few prospects through to help the big club.

Primary lefty???

So Minter and Venters are being cut loose?

[Enscheff]

It's comical to think Freeman and his .303 xwOBA in 2018 isn't worth $1.5M, but Venters bionic arm and .297 xwOBA in 2018 is worth $1.5M.

Luckily for the Braves, AA is smarter than the folks clamoring to dump Freeman.

[clvclv]

you keep ducking and diving here.
yes, i'm aware they spent time in the pen last year.
you advocated for using fried and/or gohara in place of freeman. that indicates to me you mean for the *year*, not for "a week helping out in the big club's pen." if they're replacing freeman, they aren't helping out for a week.
i asked what lefties we have currently that would be league-average out of the pen. not only do we have no idea if fried and gohara would be average out of the pen over a full season (considering we've never seen it), i don't want to commit to using them out of the pen just to save $950K.

on top of all that, which is the actual thing that was being discussed, at some point, both pitchers need consistent starts to be able to succeed as starters. shuttling them back and forth, in and out of the bullpen to dump an average RP and save $950K seems dumb.

I'm not "ducking and diving" anything.

You're talking about the LAST man in the pen - IF he's even still on the roster tomorrow, This isn't the primary lefty, or even primary LOOGY. Those guys are named Minter and Venters.

Snit has professed a preference for having a third lefty in the pen - that's all Freeman would be. If you're so averse to having someone you're developing as a SP spend a little time in the pen because you're deathly afraid you're going to "ruin" them by doing so, Burrows can be that guy. Or Pfeiffer. Or Dayton.

God forbid they sign Britton - making Minter the #2 lefty in the pen and Venters the #3 - you folks will have a *amn heart attack.

[bravesfanMatt]

Yes primary lefty. He and Venters will be. He was used in 60 plus games last year. He is not going to be the last man in pen like you suggest. Minter is not a lefty only guy. He is a closer setup guy that will be used for an inning. Same for Biddle.

[Carp]

It's comical to think Freeman and his .303 xwOBA in 2018 isn't worth $1.5M, but Venters bionic arm and .297 xwOBA in 2018 is worth $1.5M.

Luckily for the Braves, AA is smarter than the folks clamoring to dump Freeman.

Venters is a LOOGY. Freeman has reverse splits. If Freeman were a good LOOGY, I would be perfectly fine letting Venters go.

[Super]

I'm not "ducking and diving" anything.

You're talking about the LAST man in the pen - IF he's even still on the roster tomorrow, This isn't the primary lefty, or even primary LOOGY. Those guys are named Minter and Venters.

Snit has professed a preference for having a third lefty in the pen - that's all Freeman would be. If you're so averse to having someone you're developing as a SP spend a little time in the pen because you're deathly afraid you're going to "ruin" them by doing so, Burrows can be that guy. Or Pfeiffer. Or Dayton.

God forbid they sign Britton - making Minter the #2 lefty in the pen and Venters the #3 - you folks will have a *amn heart attack.

dude, what are you talking about?
freeman was used a lot last year. you're talking about using PHILIP PFEIFFER instead of freeman?? like plugging in pfeiffer is likely to get you the same results freeman did? that's absurd. he would very likely be MUCH worse. you can't just throw any lefty into freeman's place and get the same results - many will do *a lot* worse. which is the entire point you're somehow still missing.
and you're still getting away from what you initially said. after all the flip-flopping, that's understandable.

you said fried or gohara could take freeman's place and be league average. then you said they would be used for a week out of the pen by the big club. these two ideas are mutually exclusive, understand? freeman had 63 appearances last year. that is far more than week of work out of the pen. it's far more than 2 weeks of work, if you want to combine gohara's and fried's proposed time. it's close to a whole season's worth of time. so in your proposed idea, fried or gohara would be in the BP day number 1, not "for a week." it is completely contradictory. and again, we know little about how gohara or fried would perform for a full year out of the bullpen, anyway. it could very well be worse than freeman.

i have absolutely no idea what your point about britton is. i would be in favor of signing him if the price were right. i'm not dead-set on keeping freeman no matter what - this is another point you're not grasping. i'm in favor of keeping him for $1.5M. if better value were presented making him expendable, fine. it isn't there currently. you said his production could be replaced for $950K less. this is very far from a sure thing. i would call it pretty unlikely, actually. you seem to think literally any pitcher who throws left-handed will be as effective as freeman. that's just stupid.

[clvclv]

dude, what are you talking about?
freeman was used a lot last year. you're talking about using PHILIP PFEIFFER instead of freeman?? like plugging in pfeiffer is likely to get you the same results freeman did? that's absurd. he would very likely be MUCH worse. you can't just throw any lefty into freeman's place and get the same results - many will do *a lot* worse. which is the entire point you're somehow still missing.
and you're still getting away from what you initially said. after all the flip-flopping, that's understandable.

you said fried or gohara could take freeman's place and be league average. then you said they would be used for a week out of the pen by the big club. these two ideas are mutually exclusive, understand? freeman had 63 appearances last year. that is far more than week of work out of the pen. it's far more than 2 weeks of work, if you want to combine gohara's and fried's proposed time. it's close to a whole season's worth of time. so in your proposed idea, fried or gohara would be in the BP day number 1, not "for a week." it is completely contradictory. and again, we know little about how gohara or fried would perform for a full year out of the bullpen, anyway. it could very well be worse than freeman.

i have absolutely no idea what your point about britton is. i would be in favor of signing him if the price were right. i'm not dead-set on keeping freeman no matter what - this is another point you're not grasping. i'm in favor of keeping him for $1.5M. if better value were presented making him expendable, fine. it isn't there currently. you said his production could be replaced for $950K less. this is very far from a sure thing. i would call it pretty unlikely, actually. you seem to think literally any pitcher who throws left-handed will be as effective as freeman. that's just stupid.

They could. So could Fried. At any point in time. Corbin Clouse is a better Pitcher. Thomas Burrows is a better Pitcher. Sobotka is a better Pitcher.

Being "in favor of keeping him for $1.5 million" is fine. I like to waste money every once in a while too.

One of AA's stated goals is to improve the bullpen - keeping league-average guys that will normally be one of the last guys out of your pen who makes $1 million more than any number of guys you already have who are better Pitchers that will make less money doesn't do anything to improve your pen. I like Freeman as much as the next person, but he's simply filler - on any given night, Snitker will use O'Day, Winkler, Sobotka, Venters, or Biddle rather than using Freeman.

He's just fine for $1.5 million - no one's arguing that. Keeping him for $1.5 million does absolutely nothing to improve your pen, and it sure as *ell isn't going to help you cut down on the number of walks your pen issues - and that's the reason the 2018 pen sucked so bad to begin with. Just make sure you never complain in 2019 game threads when Snit brings him in to face a lefty bat (which is idiotic in the first place) and he walks him.

The point is that the 2019 Braves will not be one bit worse if they use any number of Pitchers instead of Sam Freeman. If he's that good, why shouldn't he have been extended? League-average RPs don't grow on trees, you know - yet the Braves have found guys like Freeman on the scrap heap every year for the last 20 years.

(BTW - yes, Freeman made 63 appearances in 2018 - exactly 45 came BEFORE the All-Star break. When the games counted most and Venters and Sobotka arrived, they stopped using him.)

[JohnAdcox]

So. Peralta or McCutchen and call it done? Bullpen pieces in ST?

[nsacpi]

So. Peralta or McCutchen and call it done? Bullpen pieces in ST?

I think we get a high leverage reliever.

[clvclv]

I think we get a high leverage reliever.

And possibly before an OF.

[Super]

They could. So could Fried. At any point in time. Corbin Clouse is a better Pitcher. Thomas Burrows is a better Pitcher. Sobotka is a better Pitcher.

Being "in favor of keeping him for $1.5 million" is fine. I like to waste money every once in a while too.

One of AA's stated goals is to improve the bullpen - keeping league-average guys that will normally be one of the last guys out of your pen who makes $1 million more than any number of guys you already have who are better Pitchers that will make less money doesn't do anything to improve your pen. I like Freeman as much as the next person, but he's simply filler - on any given night, Snitker will use O'Day, Winkler, Sobotka, Venters, or Biddle rather than using Freeman.

He's just fine for $1.5 million - no one's arguing that. Keeping him for $1.5 million does absolutely nothing to improve your pen, and it sure as *ell isn't going to help you cut down on the number of walks your pen issues - and that's the reason the 2018 pen sucked so bad to begin with. Just make sure you never complain in 2019 game threads when Snit brings him in to face a lefty bat (which is idiotic in the first place) and he walks him.

The point is that the 2019 Braves will not be one bit worse if they use any number of Pitchers instead of Sam Freeman. If he's that good, why shouldn't he have been extended? League-average RPs don't grow on trees, you know - yet the Braves have found guys like Freeman on the scrap heap every year for the last 20 years.

(BTW - yes, Freeman made 63 appearances in 2018 - exactly 45 came BEFORE the All-Star break. When the games counted most and Venters and Sobotka arrived, they stopped using him.)

the 2019 braves could certainly be worse using a lot of pitchers (like philip pfeiffer) over freeman. there's average and then there's a whole lot worse than average. freeman was just as good as biddle last year.

once upon a time sam freeman had really good minor league numbers that didn't transfer right over to the majors. but i'm sure every single RP the braves have who posted good numbers last year will be easily better than freeman. maybe we can try them all out, and when one is really bad, move on to the next one.

"if he's that good, why shouldn't he have been extended?" like, seriously, dude?

why am i wasting my time. you're abandoning arguments and changing them up constantly to make it not sound painfully silly.

i'm glad you've moved off your points that make no sense at all and contradict each other.