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Thread: Value and Market Valuation: Freeman, Simmons and Heyward

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    Quote Originally Posted by mfree80 View Post
    I hope and believe you are correct, but the fact that Jason and Freddie declined (reportedly) to talk about extensions prior to this year does give a moment of pause.
    I think they declined the offer, but yes, definitely a cause for concern.

    No idea what was offered.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nsacpi View Post
    Would you rather have him in left or first? He's played less first and it shows. But I think he's got a better chance of being adequate (after half a season or so of playing time) at first than in left.

    I'd rather him be 2nd/3rd catcher and bench RH bat. He has been awful at LF and 1B in the field and adequate at catcher. If he was older and had more time, I would consider letting him get more reps at 1 position.

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    I dont get the criticism of Gattis in LF. However, IMO he is worth much more as a trade chip in the event McCann resigns with us.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PawPawMaxwell View Post
    I dont get the criticism of Gattis in LF.
    I agree that it's overstated, esp. considering how bad Justin Upton has been out there. Justin cost us two more runs yesterday, if that were Gattis we'd never hear the end of it. I didn't expect Justin to do so poorly defensively this year. He's been bad in both right and left field. Plus Justin throws to the wrong base a lot, overthrows the cut off man, etc. He's long been bad that way however (even in Arizona when he showed great range, etc). He's at -10 DRS (defensive runs saved) in the outfield thus far.

    That said, Justin should improve in left with more time out there. Bottom line: Gattis and Justin Upton both have given us an OPS over .800 with the bat. So I'll take my chances with their defense given their potential with the bat. I know Gattis lacks in range but he also has a strong arm too. He's thrown out two runners at the plate. Plus he'd have a few more assists at second too if not for some dropped balls by Uggla.

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    The difference is Justin has been bad, but we have good reason to think he can do much better.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nsacpi View Post
    The difference is Justin has been bad, but we have good reason to think he can do much better.
    I expect so as far as getting to balls, but Justin is what he is as far as what he does with after that. He's always been one of the worst at throwing to the wrong base, etc. There was an ESPN article not long ago that covered his track record in that regard. Further, I wouldn't rule out Gattis improving in left either. But as long as he's going back and forth from left to catcher and sometimes first. Well, I'd expect that to make it tougher to be consistent. He's done better than I expected at it all things considered.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Braves1976 View Post
    I agree that it's overstated, esp. considering how bad Justin Upton has been out there. Justin cost us two more runs yesterday, if that were Gattis we'd never hear the end of it. I didn't expect Justin to do so poorly defensively this year. He's been bad in both right and left field. Plus Justin throws to the wrong base a lot, overthrows the cut off man, etc. He's long been bad that way however (even in Arizona when he showed great range, etc). He's at -10 DRS (defensive runs saved) in the outfield thus far.

    That said, Justin should improve in left with more time out there. Bottom line: Gattis and Justin Upton both have given us an OPS over .800 with the bat. So I'll take my chances with their defense given their potential with the bat. I know Gattis lacks in range but he also has a strong arm too. He's thrown out two runners at the plate. Plus he'd have a few more assists at second too if not for some dropped balls by Uggla.
    Any defensive metric for this year has Gattis being pretty bad. He has terrible range and poor routes. He does have a decent arm.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gilesfan View Post
    Any defensive metric for this year has Gattis being pretty bad. He has terrible range and poor routes. He does have a decent arm.
    Bottom line: Gattis hasn't cost us many runs out there thus far. Plus he's made up for whatever he has cost with his bat. He's similar to Josh Willingham who a lot around here wanted not long ago.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Braves1976 View Post
    Bottom line: Gattis hasn't cost us many runs out there thus far. Plus he's made up for whatever he has cost with his bat. He's similar to Josh Willingham who a lot around here wanted not long ago.
    He's -5 in only 155 innings. UZR/150 is -16.2.

    Willingham's worst is -13 in 1,027 innings and a UZR/150 of -12.7 (2013) He's also been a much better hitter.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gilesfan View Post
    He's -5 in only 155 innings. UZR/150 is -16.2.

    Willingham's worst is -13 in 1,027 innings and a UZR/150 of -12.7 (2013) He's also been a much better hitter.
    All things considered, that's not as bad as you make it out to be. But I am not surprised you still refuse to give Gattis the credit he deserves.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Braves1976 View Post
    All things considered, that's not as bad as you make it out to be. But I am not surprised you still refuse to give Gattis the credit he deserves.
    Credit for what? Am I supposed to say he's a good or average defender when he's not? Over the course of a full season, that's like 30-40 runs.

    Offensively, I'm not a fan. (mainly low OBP). But, the power was great early on.


    SeasonSplit BB% K% BB/K AVG OBP SLG OPS ISO BABIP wRC wRAA wOBA wRC+
    2013 Mar/Apr 7.10% 22.60% 0.32 0.25 0.31 0.566 0.875 0.316 0.25 13.1 3.8 0.372 139
    2013 May 4.30% 24.60% 0.18 0.317 0.362 0.683 1.045 0.365 0.341 14.3 6.7 0.437 184
    2013 Jun 16.70% 16.70% 1 0.083 0.233 0.333 0.567 0.25 0 1.6 -1.8 0.239 47
    2013 Jul 1.70% 20.70% 0.08 0.263 0.276 0.333 0.609 0.07 0.318 4.4 -2.1 0.269 67
    2013 Aug 9.10% 4.50% 2 0.25 0.318 0.35 0.668 0.1 0.263 1.9 -0.6 0.28 76


    Table not showing up good. OPS by month:
    .875
    1.015
    .567
    .609
    .668

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    Quote Originally Posted by gilesfan View Post
    Credit for what? Am I supposed to say he's a good or average defender when he's not? Over the course of a full season, that's like 30-40 runs.

    Offensively, I'm not a fan. (mainly low OBP). But, the power was great early on.
    I was thinking of your overall comments about Gattis (including before the season) on up to today.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gilesfan View Post
    He's -5 in only 155 innings. UZR/150 is -16.2.

    Willingham's worst is -13 in 1,027 innings and a UZR/150 of -12.7 (2013) He's also been a much better hitter.
    Gattis has an extremely small sample size in a position he's never played before.
    I have a little bit of hope he can become decent out there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gilesfan View Post
    Credit for what? Am I supposed to say he's a good or average defender when he's not? Over the course of a full season, that's like 30-40 runs.

    Offensively, I'm not a fan. (mainly low OBP). But, the power was great early on.


    SeasonSplit BB% K% BB/K AVG OBP SLG OPS ISO BABIP wRC wRAA wOBA wRC+
    2013 Mar/Apr 7.10% 22.60% 0.32 0.25 0.31 0.566 0.875 0.316 0.25 13.1 3.8 0.372 139
    2013 May 4.30% 24.60% 0.18 0.317 0.362 0.683 1.045 0.365 0.341 14.3 6.7 0.437 184
    2013 Jun 16.70% 16.70% 1 0.083 0.233 0.333 0.567 0.25 0 1.6 -1.8 0.239 47
    2013 Jul 1.70% 20.70% 0.08 0.263 0.276 0.333 0.609 0.07 0.318 4.4 -2.1 0.269 67
    2013 Aug 9.10% 4.50% 2 0.25 0.318 0.35 0.668 0.1 0.263 1.9 -0.6 0.28 76


    Table not showing up good. OPS by month:
    .875
    1.015
    .567
    .609
    .668
    But, but, but...he's going to hit 20+ HRs!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Enscheff View Post
    But, but, but...he's going to hit 20+ HRs!!
    ?
    He's a rookie first-year player with 15 homers and an .808 OPS.
    He could definitely still be a valuable hitter.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gilesfan View Post
    He's -5 in only 155 innings. UZR/150 is -16.2.

    Willingham's worst is -13 in 1,027 innings and a UZR/150 of -12.7 (2013) He's also been a much better hitter.
    Defensive Sample FTL!!!
    Stockholm, more densely populated than NYC - sturg

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    Gattis doubters have been DYING to be able to pump their chests all season. The book is not closed on El Oso Blanco.
    Natural Immunity Croc

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    Now and future:

    Freeman>Simmons>Heyward


    Even though J-Hey is the most talented of the bunch by far, I don't see him accepting a hometown discount, and that is part of the reason I am "ok" with letting him go. He is too inconsistent of a hitter for us to throw close to, if not over 100 million dollars at. Spend the money you would on Heyward and spend it on Justin Upton. He's likely the much better player offensive player over the next 5-10 yrs anyways. I would say it's next to impossible to keep both of them long term.

    Freeman, I think, is going to one of those players who will get consistently underrated by most people around baseball due to his lack of power. I think we'll keep him around for awhile due to this.

    Simmons is a player you don't try to extend for awhile. Lite hitting defensive specialists typically do not require much to attain. I think Simmons develops into a decent hitter, but not enough to make him a marquee player. We can wait on him for a 3-4 yrs before we have to worry about resigning him. Hopefully keep him around for something similar to what Bourn got this past off-season

    I think we should be more worried about extending Minor or Teheran than anyone else honestly.
    Last edited by Carp; 08-12-2013 at 07:48 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carp View Post
    Now and future:

    Freeman>Simmons>Heyward


    Even though J-Hey is the most talented of the bunch by far, I don't see him accepting a hometown discount, and that is part of the reason I am "ok" with letting him go. He is too inconsistent of a hitter for us to throw close to, if not over 100 million dollars at. Spend the money you would on Heyward and spend it on Justin Upton. He's likely the much better player offensive player over the next 5-10 yrs anyways. I would say it's next to impossible to keep both of them long term.

    Freeman, I think, is going to one of those players who will get consistently underrated by most people around baseball due to his lack of power. I think we'll keep him around for awhile due to this.

    Simmons is a player you don't try to extend for awhile. Lite hitting defensive specialists typically do not require much to attain. I think Simmons develops into a decent hitter, but not enough to make him a marquee player. We can wait on him for a 3-4 yrs before we have to worry about resigning him. Hopefully keep him around for something similar to what Bourn got this past off-season

    I think we should be more worried about extending Minor or Teheran than anyone else honestly.
    Ladies and Gentlemen, Carpe
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    Quote Originally Posted by zitothebrave View Post
    Defensive Sample FTL!!!
    Or you could watch him play? Or ask Medlen?

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