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Thread: Ken Gurnick, eh???

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Millwood1Hitter View Post
    I agree AUTigrer on JS and FW.

    JS might be the most overrated GM of his generation, he wasn't awful by any means but his legacy as great isn't justified. Yes, he needs credit for filling in the holes in the early 1990s with veterans on an absolutely young and loaded organization, but Schueholzs arrogance and superiority attitude prevented him from assembling complete teams in the mid to late 90s as well as smugness and attitude in dealing with specific agents in the early 00s that cost us dearly down the line.

    In mind JS was superb up to 1996, after our collapse against the yanks JS made a lot of questionable moves. It started with the Justice/Grissom trade for Lofton/Embree in which after one year we had nothing to show for.

    After the 1997 debacle our window was closing on being legitimate WS contenders. JS did just enough to keep us competitive in a relatively weak division, keeping the streak alive, but failed to put together a complete team that had a great shot at a WS. Subsequently after our WS run in 1999 it started to show, as only the 2001 team would make it out if the first round.

    Our teams during that time frame were unbalanced with considerable holes at important positions.

    While it may be that the great 98 yanks team still wins the series, 1998 was as good of a chance to go for it as any. We had arguably the best 5 man starting pitching staff in history and a phenomenal middle of the lineup with chipper, galarraga, Lopez, Klesko, and Andruw in the lineup. We had a great defensive ss on Weiss. We had decent depth with Gerald Williams, Danny Bautista, tony graffanino, and Eddie Perez. What we lacked though, is a true lead off hitter. We didn't take advantage of our great middle of the lineup with Weiss and Lockhart at the top of the order and failed to manufacturer runs, which cost us when going up against top flight pitching. JS could have put us over the top by trading for Roberto Alomar, who was on a falling Os team and in the last year of contract and was available. Alomar fit like a glove, was exactly what we needed. Another player available was Johnny Damon, whom while not the fit that Alomar would have been, would have given us a viable lead off man with speed to put in front of our deadly boppers. I mean could you imagine a lineup of Alomsr, Andruw, Chipper, galarraga, Klesko, Lopez, tucker/Williams, Weiss lineup. The bullpen as usual was suspect as well. JS decided to stand pat and instead acquire Greg Colbrunn.

    In 1999 JS had to make amends to get more production out of RF when he traded Justice two years earlier, so he put the press on for Jordan, which was fine but first JS needed to clear salary to make room for him making Neagle expendable, whose contract extension at an area of strength caused the Justice trade in the first place. But instead of trading Neagle straight up for Fernando Vina, who would have filled the second base and lead off role perfect, JS opted to move Neagle, Tucker, and young stud Robb bell for another free swinging high so middle of the order batter in Boone and swing man Remlinger. Remlinger turned out to be a key component to many bullpens, but Boone was not a fit at all. JS did relatively nothing despite the fact we ended up with season ending injuries to Ligtenberg (closer), Lopez, Galarraga, and Seanez. We ended up getting Greg Myers to be Eddies backup and another free swinger in Jose Hernandez and swing man Terry Mulhollamd. The Boone move was a precursor to another classic JS blunder.

    So JS finally decided that in order to utilize our generally great middle of the orders we needed speed and a true lead off hitter to manufacture runs at the top of the order. In comes Quilvio Veras, exactly what the doctor ordered at second base. Fine, but JS also threw in Klesko for more speed in Sanders. Sanders would go on to have the worst year of his career. Klesko should have been kept, as he was a productive and clutch player, as well as full time 1b after Galarraga moved on. Wally Joyner was a throw in as insurance in case Galarraga didn't recover from cancer. But the Klesko move cost us dearly as the Braves and JS were searching for a viable 1b from 01-04 until Laroche came along. Year in and year out our 1b was a rotating door with failed experiments in Rico Bologna, Wes Helms, Ken Caminiti until we got lucky and found Julio Franco at age 70 in the Mexicsn Leagur to at least give us league average production.

    But back to the San Diego trade, with Sanders struggling so bad through July and seemingly never getting back on track, it prompted another classic JS move, trading for BJ Surhoff, whose production was a by product of Camden yard. Surhoff gave us nothing in 2.5 years as a Brave. We had to give up a young highly touted hard throwing pitcher in Luis Rivera.

    Also in classic JS fashion, with Smoltz out for the year and Millwood struggling with a sore shoulder, we needed a reliable starter behind Maddux and Glavine and JSs answer, Andy Ashby, whom like Surhoff was past his prime and hardly an impact player. We traded highly touted prospect Chen and another middle road prospect in Osting for Ashby. By then it was apparent that Chen was too hittable and his value declined significantly, just 2 years earlier the Os would have been very interested in Chen as the main piece in the Alomar trade. In typical JS fashion he settled on mediocrity with Ashby instead of going for it and grabbing an impact pitcher like Schilling (preferably and the snakes package wasn't that good, and this is Ed wade were talking about) or our old friend Denny Neagle. Subsequently, this is the first time we got bounced in the first round. We see what schilling did in the future for the snakes. Ashby and Sanders were gone at the end if the year

    By this time, our window was pretty much closed on being a dominant force. Maddux and Glavine were still great but not dominant, Smoltz was coming back from major surgery and would transition to the pen. Our once strength was diluted as Millwood still struggled in 01, we got magic out of Burkett but the 01 team was the weakest with no real strength and played in a terrible division. We had major weaknesses in LF with the aforementioned Surhoff, no 1B with failed projects like Rico and Caminiti until we settled with Julio in September. We lost Quilvio who failed to recover from injury and relied on Giles to be his replacement and lead off hitter when Furcal went down, only to be replaced in typical JS fashion in Rey Sanchez.

    In 2002 JS finally made his first big impact trade by getting Sheffield. By then it was too little too late. JS failed, because of his pride and inability to deal with super agent Borass after the ARod deal, to sign Sheffield to an extension which set in motion a whole another chain of events that set this organization back. Sheffield wanted to stay. But jS still failed to put together a complete team in. 02 before he traded for Sheffield in January. JS had a chance to upgrade our biggest hole by trading Jason marquis to the reds for Sean Casey. Instead he opted to let 1b go, sign Castilla and move Chipper to the outfield. The Albie Lopez signing was an absolute waste of funds, unless JS moved Maquis for a 1B, which he didn't. We had a great chance at one last final run if JS got a legitimate 1B. He had to go for it then. Thome was available at the deadline. We didn't proceed and got knocked out of the playoffs by a mediocre Giants pitching staff. How good would Klesko at 1st been in 2001-2002?

    I touched on the 2003 fiasco of Millwood. Again JS unwillingness to deal and communicate with Boras cost us and it would cost us more the following offseason.

    Sheffield moves on with Boras in limbo and a failure to communicate with JS, which leads us to trade Wainwright for Drew, another Boras client that would move on one year later during free agency. Then there was the Texeria disaster.

    I'm not touching on everything, but in my opinion JS set a chain of events in effect that did not lead to complete teams with a legit shot at the WS. He is overrated.
    Hell of an interesting post. I do have to wonder though if you're not missing some key factors such as budget constraints, Bobby's input, etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AUTiger7222 View Post

    2000 - 44 Games - .289/.352/.414 (.766)
    2001 - 141 Games - .271.321/.405 (.726)
    2002 - 25 Games - .293/.369/.360 (.729)



    These #'s were during the steroid era, so yeah they were pretty bad. In his time with Atl he had a line of .277/.332/.413 in 210 games. For a corner OFer, that is pretty terrible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carp View Post
    These #'s were during the steroid era, so yeah they were pretty bad. In his time with Atl he had a line of .277/.332/.413 in 210 games. For a corner OFer, that is pretty terrible.
    So no one is accusing Sufhoff of using PED's? LOL!

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    No one has mentioned that Ted Turner lost focus on the Braves during this time. His money instead turned into buffalo burgers and the desire to own Nebraska and most of Argentina. Not to mention Jane Forda.

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    JS in my opinion was a reactionist that couldn’t get out of the way of his enlarged ego after all of the success in Atlanta in the early 90’s. The strengths of our organization were starting pitching and middle of the lineups, but our teams lacked balance (speed & OBP at top of lineup) and bullpens consisted of retreads that our environment allowed them to be successful for the most part.

    JS gets too much credit for our prolonged success, while Bobby and Leo IMO did not get enough recognition for creating the winning atmosphere in the clubhouse. Just listening to Maddux lately and you will understand.

    Its like JS had an agenda to make himself look smart and instead of making subtle moves to make the team better, he had to totally transform the team into something it wasn’t. Steve Avery was in decline but we still had the best top 3 starters in baseball, when you have them you don’t need a great 4th starter. But hey JS screams look at me, I got Denny Neagle, leading to the Justice salary dump and a whole chain of events. He fails miserably to put together a top of the lineup in 98-99 in front of a great middle of the lineup, but overreacts and and changes the dynamic of our team with Veras and Sanders, which lead to another whole chain of events that backfired, primarily a large hole at 1B when Galarraga leave with the Sanders-Klesko exchange.

    And while there is no doubt Bobby had input, and there were financial constraints, especially in the early 2000s when Time Wariner took over, I find it hard to believe that ownership had there hands around JS’s neck to cut or not take on salary. Lets look at the facts:

    During that time frame, JS was still out spending money and taking salaries on in most of his dealings. The only true salary dumps were the Justice/Grissom for Lofton trade, which freed up money in 1997 to take on Neagle’s extension, but again we had plenty of starting pitching. The other salary dump that took place during time frame was dumping Neagle/Tucker for Boone/Remlinger which essentially freed up money to sign Jordan. Every other move that JS made during that frame we took ON additional salary. The only other move that freed up salary at the time was the San Diego trade, in which we took on more salary with the acquisitions of Veras, Sanders, and Joyner in 2000 but freed up long-term money by getting rid of Klesko, who had a long-term contract. In the end, though, JS ended up spending more money that than Klesko deal trying to patch 1B from 2001-2002 with failed projects in Rico Brogna, Ken Caminiti, and the subsequent acquisition of Surhoff. In 2001 we spent a total of close to 7 million on failed 1B projects, while Klesko made 5.75 million. Think about that.
    During that same time frame, JS was still out wining and dining high profile free agents. Don’t tell me he didn’t have the flexibility and funds to spend. We basically had AROD signed to a big deal before Texas came in on the last moment. We were in on Mike Hampton as well. He flirted with Kevin Brown before Los Angeles came in and gave him that absurd deal. We were in on Griffey before Cincy got him. Its hard to imagine that we had a hard cap on salaries, as I fanthom to think what would have happened if we did finalize the deal with AROD. It would have been the old “economics of baseball stink” times 100 compared to what transpired a year or two later.

    Again, every trade except the Cincinnati and Cleveland moves the Atlanta Braves took on MORE salary in the short-term.

    We had unbalanced teams and instead of tweaking things and getting impact players, JS often failed to do so as our window closed. Again, I will go back to the Alomar in 1998 deal. He is exactly what this team needed that year. The O’s were fading and Alomar was in the last year of his contract. They wanted to move him, we had a huge need for a top of the lineup impact hitter to put in front of Chipper, Galarraga, Klesko, Lopez, Andruw, etc. We had the highest rated pitching prospect at that time in Chen in the minors, and other highly thought of prospects like Bell, Bowie, Rivera, Perez. There is no doubt that Baltimore would have done a deal centered around Chen, who we didn’t need with the depth of the starting pitching at the time. Our window was closing, while the big 3 would go on and have more productive years they were getting past their prime and dominant stages. The bullpen was also a mess.

    JS did nothing to shore up a team decimated with injuries in 1999. No reason to elaborate here. If JS trades Neagle for Vina, though instead of another high SO power hitter in Boone that we didn’t need things could have ended up differently. He also didn’t maximize Rob Bell’s return as most scouts were believed he could have been the next John Smoltz. Bowie gets traded for little value in Mulholland and Hernadez.
    I went in depth at the beginning on the San Diego trade of the 2000 season. But that same year, JS got little value for Chen, who was apparent was not the TOR starter that everyone thought he would develop into, for Andy Ashby, who was a non-impact. Meanwhile, Philly gave up Schilling for a questionable packaged based around top prosects Travis Lee & Vicinte Padialla, journeyman Omar Daal, & Nelson Figueroa. After a fantastic spring training, our own Luis Rivera was drawing rave reviews from opponent scouts and darting up the top prospect boards, only to get dealt for little value in Surhoff who was a product of Camden Yards. And the Surhoff deal didn’t have to be made if Klesko isn’t traded for Sanders, who had the worst year of his career. If Bell isn’t a throw in on the Cincy deal or JS makes the Milwaukee trade, we could have centered a deal around him to get Schilling. Hell, we still had Rivera, Chen, Betemit, Lombard, Marquis, Perez, Helms, and Osting to deal to get real fortification in Schilling for the rotation. I’ll be the first to admit that we didn’t have the greatest minor league system out of all the organizations, but we still had plenty of good highly touted talent to deal during these years to get impact players.

    JS had the ability to take on salary in 2001. He was in on Hampton, he almost had AROD. Despite being in on AROD big time and the apparent leader until the last moment, JS was in heavy negotiations with Darren Dreifort. YIKES

    Despite the fact that we was willing and able to spend big money on AROD and or Hampton/Dreifort, JS failed to shore up the biggest weakness on the team at 1B, which was created by looking into the future with the Klesko trade. We also had a hole in LF. Despite all of this JS failed to recognize a need and still had a chance to resign Galarraga as a stopgap or Mark Grace. JS’s idea of upgrading first was a Rico Brogna & Wes Helms platoon which failed, then the failed experiment in Caminiti, and luck in finding Julio. He still had a chance to make amends at the trade deadline to reacquire the Crime Dog, who was traded for basically Manny Aybar to the Cubs. EPIC FAILURE THIS ENTIRE SEASON! We kept the streak alive due to a weak division. Our offense became considerably worse when we lost Furcal to injury and was replaced with Rey Sanchez. We got lucky beating the Astros, and rode the coattails of Maddux, Glavine, and Chipper but got overmatched by Schilling and Johnson.

    Finally in 2002, JS made an impact move to upgrade a need as we needed middle of the order power in Sheffield. That trade was a no brainer. But at that time it was too little too late. Glavine and Maddux were still great, but not overpowering mainstays. We finally had stability with a dominant closer in our best postseason pitcher in Smoltz. We still had a legit shot at WS, though, as Millwood finally returned to his dominant form and a great bullpen. The 2001 pre Sheffield and post Sheffield is still baffling, as JS ignoring a need at 1B. We relied on the Francos for production from first, who did well in the regular season, but were overwhelmed in the playoffs. JS overspent dearly on Albie Lopez, who provided nothing. It would have made some sense if JS would have followed up and trade Marquis to Cincy for Sean Casey, but JS didn’t pull the trigger and opted to sign Castilla for 3rd, move Chipper to LF, and leave the Surhoff basically as utility man/1B platoon partner with Julio before getting injured. We spent close to 12 million in 02 on Surhoff, Albie, & Castilla and they gave us close to nothing. JS still had an opportunity to make amends in the middle of the offseason by trading for either Thome or Rolen who would have had a huge impact on the lineup, but JS failed to make the acquisition despite having guys like Marquis, Betemit, Wainwright, Nelson, Belisle, Miner, and Evert at his disposal. 2002 was our last year at truly a legit run at a WS.

    I hit on the 2003 fiasco with Glavine-Maddux-Millwood-Hampton-Byrd-Ortiz in a previous post. JS cornered himself into that situation. Why JS wanted to keep and sign Glavine over Maddux is still baffling, considering Glavine’s second half 2002, in which I started to believe that Glavine had shoulder issues but never let on to it with impeding FA. JS was arrogant and scared to negotiate with Boras at this point in time, a huge failure of communication between the 2 after the AROD deal. If JS doesn’t go ape wild before the arbitration deadline wheeling and dealing and spending money on mediocre pitching then he isn’t forced to trade our best pitcher as a salary dump. He sold high on Moss for Ortiz, but in doing so we took on an additional 4 million. When it became apparent that Maddux was going to accept arb, I was hoping that JS saw the light and was going to swap Ortiz for Sean Casey, basically even salaries and Casey would have been a considerable upgrade at 1st. The Reds were hot and heavy after Ortiz, just like they were for Marquis the year before, and had a log-jam in the OF/1B. He signed Byrd for 2 years 11 million, horrible deal at the time and even worse when he blew out his elbow, which everyone saw coming.

    JS made himself at the time look like a genius to the average fan pulling the Hampton trade off in late November after it was apparent that Glavine was not going to take our deal. While the Braves were only responsible for 3.5 million of Hamptons albatross of a contract for the first 3 years, the final 3 years where the Braves were responsible for all of the contract were actually spread over the entire 6 years of the contract, therefore actually 8 million was allotted to the 2003-2005 budgets. Hmmm, sound familiar, yep, because 3 years 24 million was the deal that JS offered Glavine.

    So essentially JS in the back of his mind had and spent 15.5 million before the arbitration deadline, whether it was Glavine, Ortiz, Byrd or Hampton, Ortiz, Byrd. By that time, he had already basically committed 22.5 million for 2004 as well on those same players, no matter what the combination of players might have been. Plus we were carrying too much dead weight with Castillas contract.

    With the market being soft for Maddux, and with Maddux’s willingness to come and stay in Atlanta at below market value, if JS had any type of dialogue at all with Boras, Maddux more than likely would have accepted a deal similar to that we threw out at Glavine, probably would have taken a little more, say 3 years 30 million. That along would have saved us nearly 5 million for 2003. And also with that, JS should have been dealing with Scott Boras on buying out the final two years of arbitration with Millwood and signing him to a 3-4 year extension. You really think Boras pinned two of his clients against each other. I don’t like Boras either, but he does try to get the best for his clients.

    So the way it worked out in the end with Maddux accept arbitration and winning, JS had 30 million going towards budget for his top 4 starters (Maddux, Ortiz, Hampton/Glavine, Byrd). If JS has dialogue with Boras on Maddux and Millwood, we could have had a significantly better rotation at the same price with Millwood, Maddux, Ortiz, Hampton. The Paul Byrd and his 11 million dollar contract was the tipping point that forced JS to trade Millwood under the circumstances explained. He also tied up an additional 11 million over the next 3 years on John Thomson in 2004.

    The following offseason, due to a lack of willingness to have dialogue with Boras, JS was once again in a corner to hurt our organization by failing to lock Sheffield up to a long-term deal when he was acquired. Much like Maddux, Sheffield would have been willing to stay here for comforts of a long-term deal and take a little less. But JS failed to negotiate with Boras and ultimately pissed Sheffield off, only to have JS come in at the last moment once it was apparent he was going to the Yankees to try to get a deal done.

    That lead to us overpaying to find a replacement for Sheffield in another Boras client in Drew. At this point in time we didn’t have a legitamte chance to win a WS. We gave up a potential ace in Wainwright & a solid starter in Marquis for one year of Drew who moved on to the Dodgers. JS didn’t get maximum value in Marquis, who just 2 years earlier alone would have netted us a big need and potential all-star caliber first basemen in Sean Casey.
    Drew leaving the following season, let even a bigger hole to fill, and JS is just lucky to keep the streak alive as the baby Braves came and saved the world. JS needs credit for the Hudson deal, but trying to believe that relying on Jordan and Mondesi in the OF was an epic failure, much like failing to fill the 1B hole in the early 00’s.

    JS again needs credit the following year for pulling off the Renteria steal. But with that he failed to put together a decent bullpen and was forced to get an alcoholic (aybar) and an average reliever (baez) for once top prospect Betemit, who years earlier would have returned a bounty in a trade. Im not going to mention the Kolb and Wickman disasters.
    So after that season, JS was once again grasping at the straws, and overreacting. So he trades Ramirez for Soriano, which is fine, but JS once again way out of his way to overreact and trade our first true first baseman in LaRoche for another closer in Gonzalez with no viable backup plan for LaRoche. I mean, yeah, we had Thormon, who only the Braves organization was clamoring over brining back memories of Klesko. Hmmm, imagine that. Except Thormon was no Klesko and left a gapping hole once again to be patched with 90 year old Julio Franco.

    Which lead to the next great JS blunder: another Boras client in Teixera, which I am going to leave it at that.

    You decide, JS didn’t make the appropriate moves at the appropriate times to put us over the top. His legacy is tarnished in my mind, and he pigeonholed himselves into too many situations that he could not get out of that ultimately cost this organization a lot in the long run. Good GM, yes, a legacy, No. And ligtening does strike twice because he left the Royals in the same shape at the end of his tenure as well, and they are still trying to recover. To me FW so far has done a much better job under much tighter circumstances and has had a little bad luck.
    You decide, and if you want me to I can go indepth on all of Frank’s move if youd like to compare.
    Last edited by Millwood1Hitter; 01-10-2014 at 01:21 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Millwood1Hitter View Post
    I agree AUTigrer on JS and FW.

    JS might be the most overrated GM of his generation, he wasn't awful by any means but his legacy as great isn't justified. Yes, he needs credit for filling in the holes in the early 1990s with veterans on an absolutely young and loaded organization, but Schueholzs arrogance and superiority attitude prevented him from assembling complete teams in the mid to late 90s as well as smugness and attitude in dealing with specific agents in the early 00s that cost us dearly down the line.

    In mind JS was superb up to 1996, after our collapse against the yanks JS made a lot of questionable moves. It started with the Justice/Grissom trade for Lofton/Embree in which after one year we had nothing to show for.

    After the 1997 debacle our window was closing on being legitimate WS contenders. JS did just enough to keep us competitive in a relatively weak division, keeping the streak alive, but failed to put together a complete team that had a great shot at a WS. Subsequently after our WS run in 1999 it started to show, as only the 2001 team would make it out if the first round.

    Our teams during that time frame were unbalanced with considerable holes at important positions.

    While it may be that the great 98 yanks team still wins the series, 1998 was as good of a chance to go for it as any. We had arguably the best 5 man starting pitching staff in history and a phenomenal middle of the lineup with chipper, galarraga, Lopez, Klesko, and Andruw in the lineup. We had a great defensive ss on Weiss. We had decent depth with Gerald Williams, Danny Bautista, tony graffanino, and Eddie Perez. What we lacked though, is a true lead off hitter. We didn't take advantage of our great middle of the lineup with Weiss and Lockhart at the top of the order and failed to manufacturer runs, which cost us when going up against top flight pitching. JS could have put us over the top by trading for Roberto Alomar, who was on a falling Os team and in the last year of contract and was available. Alomar fit like a glove, was exactly what we needed. Another player available was Johnny Damon, whom while not the fit that Alomar would have been, would have given us a viable lead off man with speed to put in front of our deadly boppers. I mean could you imagine a lineup of Alomsr, Andruw, Chipper, galarraga, Klesko, Lopez, tucker/Williams, Weiss lineup. The bullpen as usual was suspect as well. JS decided to stand pat and instead acquire Greg Colbrunn.

    In 1999 JS had to make amends to get more production out of RF when he traded Justice two years earlier, so he put the press on for Jordan, which was fine but first JS needed to clear salary to make room for him making Neagle expendable, whose contract extension at an area of strength caused the Justice trade in the first place. But instead of trading Neagle straight up for Fernando Vina, who would have filled the second base and lead off role perfect, JS opted to move Neagle, Tucker, and young stud Robb bell for another free swinging high so middle of the order batter in Boone and swing man Remlinger. Remlinger turned out to be a key component to many bullpens, but Boone was not a fit at all. JS did relatively nothing despite the fact we ended up with season ending injuries to Ligtenberg (closer), Lopez, Galarraga, and Seanez. We ended up getting Greg Myers to be Eddies backup and another free swinger in Jose Hernandez and swing man Terry Mulhollamd. The Boone move was a precursor to another classic JS blunder.

    So JS finally decided that in order to utilize our generally great middle of the orders we needed speed and a true lead off hitter to manufacture runs at the top of the order. In comes Quilvio Veras, exactly what the doctor ordered at second base. Fine, but JS also threw in Klesko for more speed in Sanders. Sanders would go on to have the worst year of his career. Klesko should have been kept, as he was a productive and clutch player, as well as full time 1b after Galarraga moved on. Wally Joyner was a throw in as insurance in case Galarraga didn't recover from cancer. But the Klesko move cost us dearly as the Braves and JS were searching for a viable 1b from 01-04 until Laroche came along. Year in and year out our 1b was a rotating door with failed experiments in Rico Bologna, Wes Helms, Ken Caminiti until we got lucky and found Julio Franco at age 70 in the Mexicsn Leagur to at least give us league average production.

    But back to the San Diego trade, with Sanders struggling so bad through July and seemingly never getting back on track, it prompted another classic JS move, trading for BJ Surhoff, whose production was a by product of Camden yard. Surhoff gave us nothing in 2.5 years as a Brave. We had to give up a young highly touted hard throwing pitcher in Luis Rivera.

    Also in classic JS fashion, with Smoltz out for the year and Millwood struggling with a sore shoulder, we needed a reliable starter behind Maddux and Glavine and JSs answer, Andy Ashby, whom like Surhoff was past his prime and hardly an impact player. We traded highly touted prospect Chen and another middle road prospect in Osting for Ashby. By then it was apparent that Chen was too hittable and his value declined significantly, just 2 years earlier the Os would have been very interested in Chen as the main piece in the Alomar trade. In typical JS fashion he settled on mediocrity with Ashby instead of going for it and grabbing an impact pitcher like Schilling (preferably and the snakes package wasn't that good, and this is Ed wade were talking about) or our old friend Denny Neagle. Subsequently, this is the first time we got bounced in the first round. We see what schilling did in the future for the snakes. Ashby and Sanders were gone at the end if the year

    By this time, our window was pretty much closed on being a dominant force. Maddux and Glavine were still great but not dominant, Smoltz was coming back from major surgery and would transition to the pen. Our once strength was diluted as Millwood still struggled in 01, we got magic out of Burkett but the 01 team was the weakest with no real strength and played in a terrible division. We had major weaknesses in LF with the aforementioned Surhoff, no 1B with failed projects like Rico and Caminiti until we settled with Julio in September. We lost Quilvio who failed to recover from injury and relied on Giles to be his replacement and lead off hitter when Furcal went down, only to be replaced in typical JS fashion in Rey Sanchez.

    In 2002 JS finally made his first big impact trade by getting Sheffield. By then it was too little too late. JS failed, because of his pride and inability to deal with super agent Borass after the ARod deal, to sign Sheffield to an extension which set in motion a whole another chain of events that set this organization back. Sheffield wanted to stay. But jS still failed to put together a complete team in. 02 before he traded for Sheffield in January. JS had a chance to upgrade our biggest hole by trading Jason marquis to the reds for Sean Casey. Instead he opted to let 1b go, sign Castilla and move Chipper to the outfield. The Albie Lopez signing was an absolute waste of funds, unless JS moved Maquis for a 1B, which he didn't. We had a great chance at one last final run if JS got a legitimate 1B. He had to go for it then. Thome was available at the deadline. We didn't proceed and got knocked out of the playoffs by a mediocre Giants pitching staff. How good would Klesko at 1st been in 2001-2002?

    I touched on the 2003 fiasco of Millwood. Again JS unwillingness to deal and communicate with Boras cost us and it would cost us more the following offseason.

    Sheffield moves on with Boras in limbo and a failure to communicate with JS, which leads us to trade Wainwright for Drew, another Boras client that would move on one year later during free agency. Then there was the Texeria disaster.

    I'm not touching on everything, but in my opinion JS set a chain of events in effect that did not lead to complete teams with a legit shot at the WS. He is overrated.
    Schuerholz' biggest failure.

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    Co-Owner, BravesCenter
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    A ton of food for thought in these posts. Thank you [MENTION=1695]Millwood1Hitter[/MENTION] -- I had totally forgotten about 95% of this stuff.

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    Called Up to the Major Leagues AUTiger7222's Avatar
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    Millwood fan you've hit on a lot of terrible trades JS made. Another terrible trade he made was sending young stud Jermaine Dye to the Royals for a bench bat Keith Lockhart and no name outfielder Michael Tucker. Seriously. What was the point of that trade?

    Also getting back to the Justice/Grissom for Lofton/Embree trade. That trade was made in the middle of spring training in 1997. That wasn't an offseason trade. The Braves team was set and prime to be great in 1997 and then clear out of the blue JS makes this huge terrible trade and never made any sense, at least to me when you consider our team was set and absolutely loaded. All Grissom and Justice would do is carry the Indians to the WS in 1997. Grissom won the MVP of the ALCS that year.

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    Shift Leader CyYoung31's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Millwood1Hitter View Post
    JS in my opinion was a reactionist that couldn’t get out of the way of his enlarged ego after all of the success in Atlanta in the early 90’s. The strengths of our organization were starting pitching and middle of the lineups, but our teams lacked balance (speed & OBP at top of lineup) and bullpens consisted of retreads that our environment allowed them to be successful for the most part.

    JS gets too much credit for our prolonged success, while Bobby and Leo IMO did not get enough recognition for creating the winning atmosphere in the clubhouse. Just listening to Maddux lately and you will understand.

    Its like JS had an agenda to make himself look smart and instead of making subtle moves to make the team better, he had to totally transform the team into something it wasn’t. Steve Avery was in decline but we still had the best top 3 starters in baseball, when you have them you don’t need a great 4th starter. But hey JS screams look at me, I got Denny Neagle, leading to the Justice salary dump and a whole chain of events. He fails miserably to put together a top of the lineup in 98-99 in front of a great middle of the lineup, but overreacts and and changes the dynamic of our team with Veras and Sanders, which lead to another whole chain of events that backfired, primarily a large hole at 1B when Galarraga leave with the Sanders-Klesko exchange.

    And while there is no doubt Bobby had input, and there were financial constraints, especially in the early 2000s when Time Wariner took over, I find it hard to believe that ownership had there hands around JS’s neck to cut or not take on salary. Lets look at the facts:

    During that time frame, JS was still out spending money and taking salaries on in most of his dealings. The only true salary dumps were the Justice/Grissom for Lofton trade, which freed up money in 1997 to take on Neagle’s extension, but again we had plenty of starting pitching. The other salary dump that took place during time frame was dumping Neagle/Tucker for Boone/Remlinger which essentially freed up money to sign Jordan. Every other move that JS made during that frame we took ON additional salary. The only other move that freed up salary at the time was the San Diego trade, in which we took on more salary with the acquisitions of Veras, Sanders, and Joyner in 2000 but freed up long-term money by getting rid of Klesko, who had a long-term contract. In the end, though, JS ended up spending more money that than Klesko deal trying to patch 1B from 2001-2002 with failed projects in Rico Brogna, Ken Caminiti, and the subsequent acquisition of Surhoff. In 2001 we spent a total of close to 7 million on failed 1B projects, while Klesko made 5.75 million. Think about that.
    During that same time frame, JS was still out wining and dining high profile free agents. Don’t tell me he didn’t have the flexibility and funds to spend. We basically had AROD signed to a big deal before Texas came in on the last moment. We were in on Mike Hampton as well. He flirted with Kevin Brown before Los Angeles came in and gave him that absurd deal. We were in on Griffey before Cincy got him. Its hard to imagine that we had a hard cap on salaries, as I fanthom to think what would have happened if we did finalize the deal with AROD. It would have been the old “economics of baseball stink” times 100 compared to what transpired a year or two later.

    Again, every trade except the Cincinnati and Cleveland moves the Atlanta Braves took on MORE salary in the short-term.

    We had unbalanced teams and instead of tweaking things and getting impact players, JS often failed to do so as our window closed. Again, I will go back to the Alomar in 1998 deal. He is exactly what this team needed that year. The O’s were fading and Alomar was in the last year of his contract. They wanted to move him, we had a huge need for a top of the lineup impact hitter to put in front of Chipper, Galarraga, Klesko, Lopez, Andruw, etc. We had the highest rated pitching prospect at that time in Chen in the minors, and other highly thought of prospects like Bell, Bowie, Rivera, Perez. There is no doubt that Baltimore would have done a deal centered around Chen, who we didn’t need with the depth of the starting pitching at the time. Our window was closing, while the big 3 would go on and have more productive years they were getting past their prime and dominant stages. The bullpen was also a mess.

    JS did nothing to shore up a team decimated with injuries in 1999. No reason to elaborate here. If JS trades Neagle for Vina, though instead of another high SO power hitter in Boone that we didn’t need things could have ended up differently. He also didn’t maximize Rob Bell’s return as most scouts were believed he could have been the next John Smoltz. Bowie gets traded for little value in Mulholland and Hernadez.
    I went in depth at the beginning on the San Diego trade of the 2000 season. But that same year, JS got little value for Chen, who was apparent was not the TOR starter that everyone thought he would develop into, for Andy Ashby, who was a non-impact. Meanwhile, Philly gave up Schilling for a questionable packaged based around top prosects Travis Lee & Vicinte Padialla, journeyman Omar Daal, & Nelson Figueroa. After a fantastic spring training, our own Luis Rivera was drawing rave reviews from opponent scouts and darting up the top prospect boards, only to get dealt for little value in Surhoff who was a product of Camden Yards. And the Surhoff deal didn’t have to be made if Klesko isn’t traded for Sanders, who had the worst year of his career. If Bell isn’t a throw in on the Cincy deal or JS makes the Milwaukee trade, we could have centered a deal around him to get Schilling. Hell, we still had Rivera, Chen, Betemit, Lombard, Marquis, Perez, Helms, and Osting to deal to get real fortification in Schilling for the rotation. I’ll be the first to admit that we didn’t have the greatest minor league system out of all the organizations, but we still had plenty of good highly touted talent to deal during these years to get impact players.

    JS had the ability to take on salary in 2001. He was in on Hampton, he almost had AROD. Despite being in on AROD big time and the apparent leader until the last moment, JS was in heavy negotiations with Darren Dreifort. YIKES

    Despite the fact that we was willing and able to spend big money on AROD and or Hampton/Dreifort, JS failed to shore up the biggest weakness on the team at 1B, which was created by looking into the future with the Klesko trade. We also had a hole in LF. Despite all of this JS failed to recognize a need and still had a chance to resign Galarraga as a stopgap or Mark Grace. JS’s idea of upgrading first was a Rico Brogna & Wes Helms platoon which failed, then the failed experiment in Caminiti, and luck in finding Julio. He still had a chance to make amends at the trade deadline to reacquire the Crime Dog, who was traded for basically Manny Aybar to the Cubs. EPIC FAILURE THIS ENTIRE SEASON! We kept the streak alive due to a weak division. Our offense became considerably worse when we lost Furcal to injury and was replaced with Rey Sanchez. We got lucky beating the Astros, and rode the coattails of Maddux, Glavine, and Chipper but got overmatched by Schilling and Johnson.

    Finally in 2002, JS made an impact move to upgrade a need as we needed middle of the order power in Sheffield. That trade was a no brainer. But at that time it was too little too late. Glavine and Maddux were still great, but not overpowering mainstays. We finally had stability with a dominant closer in our best postseason pitcher in Smoltz. We still had a legit shot at WS, though, as Millwood finally returned to his dominant form and a great bullpen. The 2001 pre Sheffield and post Sheffield is still baffling, as JS ignoring a need at 1B. We relied on the Francos for production from first, who did well in the regular season, but were overwhelmed in the playoffs. JS overspent dearly on Albie Lopez, who provided nothing. It would have made some sense if JS would have followed up and trade Marquis to Cincy for Sean Casey, but JS didn’t pull the trigger and opted to sign Castilla for 3rd, move Chipper to LF, and leave the Surhoff basically as utility man/1B platoon partner with Julio before getting injured. We spent close to 12 million in 02 on Surhoff, Albie, & Castilla and they gave us close to nothing. JS still had an opportunity to make amends in the middle of the offseason by trading for either Thome or Rolen who would have had a huge impact on the lineup, but JS failed to make the acquisition despite having guys like Marquis, Betemit, Wainwright, Nelson, Belisle, Miner, and Evert at his disposal. 2002 was our last year at truly a legit run at a WS.

    I hit on the 2003 fiasco with Glavine-Maddux-Millwood-Hampton-Byrd-Ortiz in a previous post. JS cornered himself into that situation. Why JS wanted to keep and sign Glavine over Maddux is still baffling, considering Glavine’s second half 2002, in which I started to believe that Glavine had shoulder issues but never let on to it with impeding FA. JS was arrogant and scared to negotiate with Boras at this point in time, a huge failure of communication between the 2 after the AROD deal. If JS doesn’t go ape wild before the arbitration deadline wheeling and dealing and spending money on mediocre pitching then he isn’t forced to trade our best pitcher as a salary dump. He sold high on Moss for Ortiz, but in doing so we took on an additional 4 million. When it became apparent that Maddux was going to accept arb, I was hoping that JS saw the light and was going to swap Ortiz for Sean Casey, basically even salaries and Casey would have been a considerable upgrade at 1st. The Reds were hot and heavy after Ortiz, just like they were for Marquis the year before, and had a log-jam in the OF/1B. He signed Byrd for 2 years 11 million, horrible deal at the time and even worse when he blew out his elbow, which everyone saw coming.

    JS made himself at the time look like a genius to the average fan pulling the Hampton trade off in late November after it was apparent that Glavine was not going to take our deal. While the Braves were only responsible for 3.5 million of Hamptons albatross of a contract for the first 3 years, the final 3 years where the Braves were responsible for all of the contract were actually spread over the entire 6 years of the contract, therefore actually 8 million was allotted to the 2003-2005 budgets. Hmmm, sound familiar, yep, because 3 years 24 million was the deal that JS offered Glavine.

    So essentially JS in the back of his mind had and spent 15.5 million before the arbitration deadline, whether it was Glavine, Ortiz, Byrd or Hampton, Ortiz, Byrd. By that time, he had already basically committed 22.5 million for 2004 as well on those same players, no matter what the combination of players might have been. Plus we were carrying too much dead weight with Castillas contract.

    With the market being soft for Maddux, and with Maddux’s willingness to come and stay in Atlanta at below market value, if JS had any type of dialogue at all with Boras, Maddux more than likely would have accepted a deal similar to that we threw out at Glavine, probably would have taken a little more, say 3 years 30 million. That along would have saved us nearly 5 million for 2003. And also with that, JS should have been dealing with Scott Boras on buying out the final two years of arbitration with Millwood and signing him to a 3-4 year extension. You really think Boras pinned two of his clients against each other. I don’t like Boras either, but he does try to get the best for his clients.

    So the way it worked out in the end with Maddux accept arbitration and winning, JS had 30 million going towards budget for his top 4 starters (Maddux, Ortiz, Hampton/Glavine, Byrd). If JS has dialogue with Boras on Maddux and Millwood, we could have had a significantly better rotation at the same price with Millwood, Maddux, Ortiz, Hampton. The Paul Byrd and his 11 million dollar contract was the tipping point that forced JS to trade Millwood under the circumstances explained. He also tied up an additional 11 million over the next 3 years on John Thomson in 2004.

    The following offseason, due to a lack of willingness to have dialogue with Boras, JS was once again in a corner to hurt our organization by failing to lock Sheffield up to a long-term deal when he was acquired. Much like Maddux, Sheffield would have been willing to stay here for comforts of a long-term deal and take a little less. But JS failed to negotiate with Boras and ultimately pissed Sheffield off, only to have JS come in at the last moment once it was apparent he was going to the Yankees to try to get a deal done.

    That lead to us overpaying to find a replacement for Sheffield in another Boras client in Drew. At this point in time we didn’t have a legitamte chance to win a WS. We gave up a potential ace in Wainwright & a solid starter in Marquis for one year of Drew who moved on to the Dodgers. JS didn’t get maximum value in Marquis, who just 2 years earlier alone would have netted us a big need and potential all-star caliber first basemen in Sean Casey.
    Drew leaving the following season, let even a bigger hole to fill, and JS is just lucky to keep the streak alive as the baby Braves came and saved the world. JS needs credit for the Hudson deal, but trying to believe that relying on Jordan and Mondesi in the OF was an epic failure, much like failing to fill the 1B hole in the early 00’s.

    JS again needs credit the following year for pulling off the Renteria steal. But with that he failed to put together a decent bullpen and was forced to get an alcoholic (aybar) and an average reliever (baez) for once top prospect Betemit, who years earlier would have returned a bounty in a trade. Im not going to mention the Kolb and Wickman disasters.
    So after that season, JS was once again grasping at the straws, and overreacting. So he trades Ramirez for Soriano, which is fine, but JS once again way out of his way to overreact and trade our first true first baseman in LaRoche for another closer in Gonzalez with no viable backup plan for LaRoche. I mean, yeah, we had Thormon, who only the Braves organization was clamoring over brining back memories of Klesko. Hmmm, imagine that. Except Thormon was no Klesko and left a gapping hole once again to be patched with 90 year old Julio Franco.

    Which lead to the next great JS blunder: another Boras client in Teixera, which I am going to leave it at that.

    You decide, JS didn’t make the appropriate moves at the appropriate times to put us over the top. His legacy is tarnished in my mind, and he pigeonholed himselves into too many situations that he could not get out of that ultimately cost this organization a lot in the long run. Good GM, yes, a legacy, No. And ligtening does strike twice because he left the Royals in the same shape at the end of his tenure as well, and they are still trying to recover. To me FW so far has done a much better job under much tighter circumstances and has had a little bad luck.
    You decide, and if you want me to I can go indepth on all of Frank’s move if youd like to compare.
    JS is still here though, and in a key position. Let's give him a little credit for rebuilding the Braves again.

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    Called Up to the Major Leagues AUTiger7222's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CyYoung31 View Post
    JS is still here though, and in a key position. Let's give him a little credit for rebuilding the Braves again.
    He does deserve credit for Heyward and Freeman both being drafted in 2007.

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    Very Flirtatious, but Doubts What Love Is. jpx7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AUTiger7222 View Post
    Another terrible trade he made was sending young stud Jermaine Dye to the Royals for a interleague+playoffs designated hitter / starting-calibre second-baseman / professional private-eye photographer / original talisman Keith Lockhart and who cares who else.
    Fixed it for you.
    "For all his tattooings he was on the whole a clean, comely looking cannibal."

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    Anytime Now Frankie...
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    AU, I didn't forget about the Dye/Walker for Tucker/Lockhart move, I didn't list it as I didn't feel it was a major blunder. Yes, Dye turned into a stud, but was decimated by injuries and took him a few years before he came into his own.

    Dye was not a fit on the roster that would have already included Justice, Grissom, Andruw, and Klesko. Tucker was a highly touted prospect and would have been more insurance if justice wasnt ready to play in the field every day or Andruw struggled and Lockhart filled a need as it was apparent that Lemke was close to the end of his career. Lockhart was a nice role player.

    The main problem I had with that trade that JS and Co counted on Lockhart too much, making him a starter in 98. See my Alomar comments above. Lockhart filled a role but was asked of too much. Championship caliber teams should not rely on guys like Lockhart to be a full time guy.

    While it was a questionable trade, it didn't have a huge impact if Lockhsrt:Tucker were used as they were suppose to be.

    The Justice/Grissom trade was baffling to say the least, and the timing of it made it even more bizarre. But it was a salary dump essentially because of the Neagle extension along with each one of the Big 3 needing new deals in the next few years to come. Both Justice and Grissom were signed to long term deals. This contradicts the theory because again JS and company were taking on additional salary in future years in addition to the raises the Big 3 got.

    Trading one of Justice/Grissom and their contracts (preferably Grissom) made sense at the time with Andruw ready to star. I would have had no problem taking a proactive approach and trading Grissom for a reliable reliever while using and transitioning Andruw as the full time CF along with Tucker spelling him.

    I think JS in the end, in his usual reactionary mode, panicked after 96 and wanted to light the world on fire and make a lot of buzz leading up to the opening of Turner Field.

    I said in an earlier post in a different thread, the Leyritz homer forever changed our destiny as one of the all time great dynasties and be the team of the 90s. If that doesn't happen and we close out the Yanks, we have 96 as well as probably 98 and 99. It was just a huge blow. If Wohlers doesn't make that pitch, the Yanks road to be a dynasty would have seriously been derailed, as Steinbrenner would have gone ape**** on Torre and the front office. Torres probably fired and without his stability the Yanks are the same Bronx zoo, and the front office would have been under pressure to move some of their young core (Jeter, Williams, Posado, Pettite, Rivera) for big name past their prime vets. Instead, it was our GM that was making radical moves on a relatively stacked team primed to make another run.
    Last edited by Millwood1Hitter; 01-10-2014 at 09:01 PM.

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    Called Up to the Major Leagues Gary82's Avatar
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    I will never forgive JS for the Grissom/Justice trade.

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    Making Atlanta Great Again!
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    Millwood you're well on your way to breaking the internets that al Gore worked hard to build.
    Forever Fredi


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    Called Up to the Major Leagues AUTiger7222's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KeithLockhart View Post
    Millwood you're well on your way to breaking the internets that al Gore worked hard to build.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cajunrevenge View Post
    I know this will be unpopular but I wouldnt have voted for Maddux either, but for a different reason. I wouldnt vote for Maddux his first year on the ballot because he pulled a dick move and lied to JS to get him to offer arbitration. That caused JS to have to trade Millwood for pennies on the dollar to shed salary. Beyond that JS was scared to offer arbitration to pending free agents which cost the Braves several draft picks. I might not vote for any player that wasnt a one team guy on the first ballot. Now I would give the players that spent 15+ years with one team that changed teams in the twilight of their career the benefit of the doubt. Thats just my opinion though. In all honesty the hall of fame is really the hall of good and there are a ton that shouldnt be in.
    Which is almost as ridiculous as Gurnick's reasoning. This has absolutely nothing to do with Greg Maddux' HOF credentials.
    Has there EVER been a statement and question a certain someone should absolutely never have made and asked publicly more than...

    Kinda pathetic to see yourself as a message board knight in shining armor. How impotent does someone have to be in real life to resort to playing hero on a message board?

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    Quote Originally Posted by cajunrevenge View Post
    Oh that would severely piss me off. I think Chipper has a shot. He is the second best 3B and second best switch hitter of all time. After all these years how many people can really say they were second best at a position? Or second best left hand or right handed batter of all time? He was the face of the division streak which is just as unbreakable of record as the hitting streak record. Now that I think about it I wouldnt put it past them to vote Rivera in unanimously.
    If Maddux didn't get 100%, Chipper doesn't stand a snowball's chance in *ell of doing so.

    Maddux - the ONLY Pitcher in HISTORY to win 4 consecutive Cy Young Awards and to win 15 or more games for 17 straight seasons. (And based on your description of ethics - screwed JS over.)

    Chipper - one MVP Award, one batting title. (And based on society's definition of ethics - screwed his wife and kids over with the Hooters chick.)
    Has there EVER been a statement and question a certain someone should absolutely never have made and asked publicly more than...

    Kinda pathetic to see yourself as a message board knight in shining armor. How impotent does someone have to be in real life to resort to playing hero on a message board?

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