GDT 5/3 - Weird Lineup Today

[thethe]

Just mindboggling thethe wants to double down and wants him to sign an extension.

Double down on what? A market value contract? A leader for a young clubhouse? Yeah - I'll double down.

[TomahawkCult]

the only thing i'm sure of in this whole thread

It reminds me of Gaylord Perry’s comment in “Me And The Spitter” about Alvin Dark keeping a memo pad with names of people who had done him wrong.

[jpx7]

I never wanted to kick him off the team. I wanted to capitalize on potentially a young piece who was finally getting a chance. There is a still a chance that Tucker is a productive player.

So please continue to twist my statements.

Fam, you’re twisting your own statements.

Let’s just all agree to hope Markakis keeps playing above-average ball, and so does the team, so we’re not arguing where to trade him, come two months, but where to best slot him in the lineup.

[thewupk]

I never wanted to kick him off the team. I wanted to capitalize on potentially a young piece who was finally getting a chance. There is a still a chance that Tucker is a productive player.

So please continue to twist my statements.

What is there to twist? You wanted to bench Neck for Tucker based on 1 week of games. Now you want to extend Neck for 2 years based on 1 month of games and ignoring the previous 3 years with the Braves.

[CyYoung31]

This thread is a comedy show.

[nsacpi]

What is there to twist? You wanted to bench Neck for Tucker based on 1 week of games. Now you want to extend Neck for 2 years based on 1 month of games and ignoring the previous 3 years with the Braves.

I don't see any inconsistency. He wants to extent Muk so that we have a good backup to Tucker on the bench.

[Southcack77]

Hardly. Most “critics” of Markakis on this board have maintained that he’s a decent player being paid roughly fairly while also maintaining that he was a needless expense for a team in full-on rebuild, whose age likely meant that his decline arc would likely be a cosine to the team’s ascendancy.

I sincerely hope he keeps his current pace and the fourth year becomes the boon, and not the bite it was assumed.

the going rate for WAR is about 7 million. Markakis is paid 11 million, so he needed to produce about 1.6 WAR to meet value.

2015 1.4 fWAR 1.7 bWAR
2016 1.2 fWAR 1.7 bWAR
2017 .7 fWAR .7 bWAR
2018 1.5* fWAR 1.9 bWAR


The first two seasons he was either a slight bargain or a slight disappointment depending on your preferred flawed method of measuring defensive value.

Last year the prediction that the fourth year would be a disaster was looking pretty good as he struggled mightily. This year, things are looking all right and he looks to be on pace for putting up a pretty typical season.

If we are to buy his defensive value can be increased by positioning him correctly, that suggests that his defensive negatives weren't necessarily his fault and this value was there all along but unlocked.


All in all, at this point complaining about the Markakis deal certainly is not new ground.

It was mostly fair during a time when his production was relatively irrelevant to overall team success and the Braves had no other internal options.

[Enscheff]

Double down on what? A market value contract? A leader for a young clubhouse? Yeah - I'll double down.

Read my sig for the answer to your question, Charlie Brown.

[Southcack77]

The 4th year was heavily criticized because of owing money to a below average/old player when it could be better used at the time. And low and behold the Braves had zero money to make add anyone this offseason. So what exactly have we gotten wrong?

you are having it both ways here, though.

He just had his second best March/April of his career.

He's produced pretty much 1.5-2 Wins in the first month of the season.

He's a pretty big part, sustainable or not, of why this team is in first place. And its far from sure the Braves could have replaced him with better or cheaper and upgraded any other spot.

[CyYoung31]

I don't see any inconsistency. He wants to extent Muk so that we have a good backup to Tucker on the bench.

[Enscheff]

you are having it both ways here, though.

He just had his second best March/April of his career.

He's produced pretty much 2 Wins in the first month of the season.

He's a pretty big part, sustainable or not, of why this team is in first place. And its far from sure the Braves could have replaced him with better or cheaper and upgraded any other spot.

The issue is you and Charlie Brown are leaning on hindsight. Nobody projected Markakis to put up a month like this, so to sit here and point out "I told you so" is stupid. It is doubly stupid to call out "revisionist history" after calling for Markakis to be benched 20 days ago.

And yes, if the goal was to be in 1st place in May, the Markakis deal 4 years ago was amazing. Whoever predicted he would lead the Braves to 1st place on May 4th, 2018 was a genius.

Now just show me who predicted that...

[thewupk]

you are having it both ways here, though.

He just had his second best March/April of his career.

He's produced pretty much 1.5-2 Wins in the first month of the season.

He's a pretty big part, sustainable or not, of why this team is in first place. And its far from sure the Braves could have replaced him with better or cheaper and upgraded any other spot.

I'm not trying to have anything both ways. I'm just trying to figure out what people have been dead wrong about Neck? Up until the start of the season it looks like we've been dead right. Does 1 month change that? I don't know. Maybe he pulls a TP and wins the MVP and leads us to the promised land.

[Southcack77]

The issue is you and Charlie Brown are leaning on hindsight. Nobody projected Markakis to put up a month like this, so to sit here and point out "I told you so" is stupid. It is doubly stupid to call out "revisionist history" after calling for Markakis to be benched 20 days ago.

And yes, if the goal was to be in 1st place in May, the Markakis deal 4 years ago was amazing. Whoever predicted he would lead the Braves to 1st place on May 4th was a genius.

Now just show me who predicted that...

that's not what I'm doing at all.

I'm not on thethe's side of this argument. He's driving me crazy these last two weeks.

Your position and mine have been pretty consistently similar on Markakis for a long while.


.....


I don't however have any objection to him being brought on a one year deal, with possibly a team option, that values him less than what he's getting now and is appropriate to his intended role.


I can live with him even starting another season in the OF so long as the Braves aren't shelling out a ton for it and have upgraded the team elsewhere.

[Enscheff]

I can live with him even starting another season in the OF so long as the Braves aren't shelling out a ton for it and have upgraded the team elsewhere.

That's kind of the rub though...

If Riley is really Jake Lamb, then the Braves only have 1 position to upgrade, and a lot of resources to upgrade it.

The Braves need an impact corner OFer, and have the resources to make it happen, period. If Markakis is in LF/RF in 2019, the FO failed this off season.

[Southcack77]

I'm not trying to have anything both ways. I'm just trying to figure out what people have been dead wrong about Neck? Up until the start of the season it looks like we've been dead right. Does 1 month change that? I don't know. Maybe he pulls a TP and wins the MVP and leads us to the promised land.

Oh, I didn't mean to imply I was adopting thethe's entire position.

I would not say you've been dead wrong at all. He's fallen well within the parameters that were predicted. Last year's drop made you seem especially prescient.

I would only disagree with your analysis of the significance of all that. I don't think the Braves have missed out on anything by having him on the team. It's not something that I think is worth complaining about.

And I do disagree that he's a major opportunity cost to a contender this year, in part because I don't think the Braves are contenders, and in part because I don't think they could have spent his money in a way that would have made a major difference.

[Southcack77]

That's kind of the rub though...

If Riley is really Jake Lamb, then the Braves only have 1 position to upgrade, and a lot of resources to upgrade it.

The Braves need an impact corner OFer, and have the resources to make it happen, period. If Markakis is in LF/RF in 2019, the FO failed this off season.

I'm not sure what it would look like either.

Maybe adding Donaldson, Kimbrell and shuffling some assets around to upgrade the rotation and pen in general somehow.

I don't have a great grasp on what they are going to try to do.

But an elite OF certainly would be a perfect fit.

If not, some kind of Markakis/Tucker/xsigning/Riley thing might work fine in the field.

[thewupk]

Oh, I didn't mean to imply I was adopting thethe's entire position.

I would not say you've been dead wrong at all. He's fallen well within the parameters that were predicted. Last year's drop made you seem especially prescient.

I would only disagree with your analysis of the significance of all that. I don't think the Braves have missed out on anything by having him on the team. It's not something that I think is worth complaining about.

And I do disagree that he's a major opportunity cost to a contender this year, in part because I don't think the Braves are contenders, and in part because I don't think they could have spent his money in a way that would have made a major difference.

It's funny. Normally I would agree that the 11 million or whatever wouldn't be enough to do anything. Then the market crashed and you saw players better than Neck signing for significant less. Now the season starts and Neck is performing like an MVP candidate.

[NYCBrave]

That's kind of the rub though...

If Riley is really Jake Lamb, then the Braves only have 1 position to upgrade, and a lot of resources to upgrade it.

The Braves need an impact corner OFer, and have the resources to make it happen, period. If Markakis is in LF/RF in 2019, the FO failed this off season.

This is 100% what I'm thinking. We have all of this money and can only spend it in very few places. Markakis will surely be a player we can upgrade on, hot start not withstanding.

[CJ9]

I know it's unlikely, but if they find a better 3B than corner OF, there was a lot of talk about Riley being able to handle a corner OF spot. That might provide some flexibility with offseason decision making.

[jpx7]

This is 100% what I'm thinking. We have all of this money and can only spend it in very few places. Markakis will surely be a player we can upgrade on, hot start not withstanding.

The real question is not where to upgrade, but who on the market actually represents an upgrade. After Not Trout, with Blackmon extented, it’s Pollock, Marwin Gonzalez, McCutchen, Pence, Adam Jones, Michael Brantley (who’d be semi-interesting, even at his age, but for health), and worse, as far as OF FAs. If we assume Not Trout ain’t happening, then it seems Pollock is the only worthwhile target—though Gonzalez could be interesting in a utility role, if not too pricey. Pollock’s by no means perfect, but he might be who the Braves are left to dance with, unless they get otherwise creative (trade; targeting/converting an INF à la Seattle/Gordon).

(Side note: I totally could’ve imagined John Hart targeting McCutchen or Jones as an “upgrade” to Markakis.)