Megathread: Braves lose Maitan, Bae and 10+ plus International Sanctions.

[Chico]

I want some more news. The more I'm reading the more it seems like the Braves were just doing business as usual and Coppy is the scapegoat. And this may have been a convenient excuse to just get rid of him and not look like the jerks.

I don't have enough information either, but if I had to guess I'm thinking the Braves wanted Coppy gone as well, and this kinda happened and opened up a good reasoning to do so. If word has gotten around that nobody wants to trade with your GM and you're getting to the time of your rebuild where you're going to start looking at trades to upgrade the major league roster then that might be a decision you make. I do think there's some legitimacy there. Looking back we traded with a handful of GM's regularly, so we may have had the door shut on many more due to Coppy's wanting to "win" every trade and being so relentless about it. It's the old adage that people do business with people they like and trust. It's the first thing your taught in sales or advertising.

[dak]

Who knows what other shoes will drop, but I think firing Coppy is a no-brainer just based on what we've learned so far this week. It sounds like the Drew Waters car thing is being denied by his agent (as you would expect), so that one is probably best left to the side for now. But we're looking at tampering with players and coaches, international bundling, handshake deal with the 14 year old, financial benefits to Maitan prior to his J2 signing, revelations that he had numerous strained relationships outside the organization, and many more leadership / relationship issues inside the organization. The man has his strengths no doubt, but man that is a lot of baggage. I'm also hoping that the supposed self-reporting and the proactive (?) step of firing Coppy and Blakely reduces our penalties.

[Horsehide Harry]

I don't have enough information either, but if I had to guess I'm thinking the Braves wanted Coppy gone as well, and this kinda happened and opened up a good reasoning to do so. If word has gotten around that nobody wants to trade with your GM and you're getting to the time of your rebuild where you're going to start looking at trades to upgrade the major league roster then that might be a decision you make. I do think there's some legitimacy there. Looking back we traded with a handful of GM's regularly, so we may have had the door shut on many more due to Coppy's wanting to "win" every trade and being so relentless about it. It's the old adage that people do business with people they like and trust. It's the first thing your taught in sales or advertising.

I think Coppy also did a bit of extended victory lap after the Arizona trade that didn't sit well.

He didn't come out and say "I dominated Dave Stewart, what a dumb @ss!" But he wasn't quick with the GM verbage defense when others brought it up either - "we got what we wanted and they got what they wanted. I'm sure it will work out to be a win-win."

In reality, the trade hasn't turned out quite so one sided as it seemed and might be viewed a little differently if Miller hadn't gotten hurt. Blair has essentially flamed out. Swanson has been a disappointment so far (debateable as to how much of that is Braves FO self inflicted). Inciarte is the real win and, by reports, Coppy didn't originally want him.

Also the whole Touki thing if you want to throw that in. He may work out but he isn't a sure fire ace at this point.

It's funny that the D'Backs are in the playoffs with essentially the team Stewart and LaRosa helped build but they get no credit at all. Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't want either anywhere near the Braves, but credit where due.

[Coredor]

What I want to know is why it would matter if we had a handshake agreement before they were old enough. It wouldn’t have been enforceable any way. If the player had wanted to they could have hung us out to dry without recourse.

[Southcack77]

What I want to know is why it would matter if we had a handshake agreement before they were old enough. It wouldn’t have been enforceable any way. If the player had wanted to they could have hung us out to dry without recourse.

Same reason it would matter if a team played non-prospects money that just happened to funnel to agent or His other clients.

What's the big deal about team making bad signings, right?

If it's a scheme to circumvent the rules it's going to be a problem.

[Julio3000]

It's a sideline discussion, but the ARI side of the Miller deal was discussed contemporaneously. There were a couple of folks (I was one, I think Gov was another) who at least said, if you squint, you can see Arizona's perspective in making the deal. It was a move predicated on a short window to compete, and if injuries hadn't wrecked their '16 season and had Miller not inexplicicably tanked, it would have been vindicated last year.

Don't get me wrong here--I'm still thrilled with the deal, I'd do it 10/10 times, and Dave Stewart is still a dope, but Dansby's struggles and ARI's playoff run this year does put it in a slightly different light.

[Orphan Black]

The hand shake deal thing is ridiculous...it's going to happen with off season with the Japanese guy since he can only sign for so much...there will be some sort of extension worked out beforehand.

[dak]

But over the last year in particular word has circulated out of the Braves organization that Hart and Schuerholz were less convivial with one another and at times openly feuding.

“Coppy (Coppolella) may have had problems with John Schuerholz, but John brought me in out of my perfect life to come here,” Hart said. “John is a dear friend. We have gone to lunch three times this week. Our families will go to dinner. No one in baseball agrees on everything. John is proud of the guys here and all of that. That one (that we are feuding) is laughable. John is my best friend in the game. Working with him is a joy and fun. He is stepping back (from baseball operations), way back, he has for the last year-plus. … He is a special guy. I love the man, I do.”

Schuerholz, who was the champion GM of both the Royals and Braves and was elected to the Hall of Fame last year, said: “My relationship with John Hart is as good and strong as it has been.”

. . .

Still, sources both inside and outside the Braves described dysfunction within baseball operations fostered by Coppolella’s leadership style and tactics, but also due to lack of oversight by Hart to what was a young, inexperienced GM. Sources say Hart was not only hands off, but also absent often, returning to Orlando to play golf regularly when the team was on the road – a period of time when those running baseball operations often use free time to either visit affiliates or mentor their underlings.

Thus, Hart is widely seen as either aware of what Coppolella was up to or having created the environment that allowed Coppolella to operate nefariously without proper oversight from his direct boss – Hart.

Hart told me he has played fewer than 10 rounds of golf this year and “I don’t think that (regular absences) is an accurate portrayal. You look at what we have done in the trade front and all the things that are part and parcel in that. International was directed by Gordon Blakeley and that is what it is. I didn’t go down to look at players, what president would go down?”

http://nypost.com/2017/10/05/execs-o...es-foundation/

[Southcack77]

I think Coppy also did a bit of extended victory lap after the Arizona trade that didn't sit well.

He didn't come out and say "I dominated Dave Stewart, what a dumb @ss!" But he wasn't quick with the GM verbage defense when others brought it up either - "we got what we wanted and they got what they wanted. I'm sure it will work out to be a win-win."

In reality, the trade hasn't turned out quite so one sided as it seemed and might be viewed a little differently if Miller hadn't gotten hurt. Blair has essentially flamed out. Swanson has been a disappointment so far (debateable as to how much of that is Braves FO self inflicted). Inciarte is the real win and, by reports, Coppy didn't originally want him.

Also the whole Touki thing if you want to throw that in. He may work out but he isn't a sure fire ace at this point.

It's funny that the D'Backs are in the playoffs with essentially the team Stewart and LaRosa helped build but they get no credit at all. Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't want either anywhere near the Braves, but credit where due.

Maybe their stone age asses made an accurate assessment of Dansby and Blair and were willing to part with their fourth OF to try and win a title.

[BeanieAntics]

Maybe their stone age asses made an accurate assessment of Dansby and Blair and were willing to part with their fourth OF to try and win a title.

This is another results vs. process debate in my mind. And honestly, either way you look at it its terrible from the Dbacks perspective. Even if you can see the logic in trying to win now, it was an awful move because they could have gotten similar value for wayyyyy less capital. At the time they gave up two top 100 prospects, one of them being a #1 pick, along with a guy who had just had a 5.3 bWAR season. And the one guy they got back was worth 3.6 WAR in the same year. That is a horrific trade no matter which way you slice it. They could have gotten a similarly valued player for maybe just Ender and definitely Ender plus Blair. But their outdated thinking undervalued their assets and they payed the price for it. They have actually received negative value on their end and we have an outfielder who is a consistent threat for 4+ WAR and a SS who has some stuff to figure out, but could still definitely be a very valuable player at some point. It was one sided and it still remains incredibly one sided.

[Southcack77]

This is another results vs. process debate in my mind. And honestly, either way you look at it its terrible from the Dbacks perspective. Even if you can see the logic in trying to win now, it was an awful move because they could have gotten similar value for wayyyyy less capital. At the time they gave up two top 100 prospects, one of them being a #1 pick, along with a guy who had just had a 5.3 bWAR season. And the one guy they got back was worth 3.6 WAR in the same year. That is a horrific trade no matter which way you slice it. They could have gotten a similarly valued player for maybe just Ender and definitely Ender plus Blair. But their outdated thinking undervalued their assets and they payed the price for it. They have actually received negative value on their end and we have an outfielder who is a consistent threat for 4+ WAR and a SS who has some stuff to figure out, but could still definitely be a very valuable player at some point. It was one sided and it still remains incredibly one sided.

That's true. It was a bad deal and they overpaid.

[thewupk]

Wren was very adept at trades and his efforts in Latin America were excellent. His problems were in free agent signings, extensions, and drafting. He was responsible for the anchors around our neck of guys like Lowe, KK, Chris Johnson (post extension), Uggla, Upton, etc. He consistently had a huge portion of our budget tied up in dead assets.

Then there were some bad drafts that really sapped the farm. The dead weight kept us from ever really being an exceptional team under him and the bad drafts gave concern for the future.

But there is no doubt he made some excellent trades.

The drafting really is no excuse. I think the poor drafting (for the most part) falls on him and his staff. Some of the other moves I am curious on. I'm not going to absolve him of all blame but I feel certain moves were made with pressure from JS on a win now mentality when he first became GM instead of starting to rebuild. Similar to how the Braves weren't allowed to have a proper rebuild after Wren was fired. But that's pure speculation on my part.

[CJ9]

The drafting really is night and day since Wren left. I'm hoping Brian Bridges stays onboard through all of this transition, especially with a new GM coming.

[thethe]

The drafting really is night and day since Wren left. I'm hoping Brian Bridges stays onboard through all of this transition, especially with a new GM coming.

It's always been about the scouting network. That is the lifeblood of any organziation. We can recover as long as that stays in place.

[sturg33]

Shanks is going out of his way to defend to JS and take down Hart.

Makes me wanna side with Hart

[thewupk]

Shanks is going out of his way to defend to JS and take down Hart.

Makes me wanna side with Hart

**** bill shanks

[CJ9]

Shanks is going out of his way to defend to JS and take down Hart.

Makes me wanna side with Hart

Remember a few weeks ago when Heyman and said Shanks was a ghost writer for JS?

[chop2chip]

Remember a few weeks ago when Heyman and said Shanks was a ghost writer for JS?

Bill does. His ENTIRE column today was about how he isn't a mouth piece for JS.

Insecure much, eh Bill?

[Jaw]

Its like old times. The guy known as a Boras mouthpiece and the JS mouthpiece are going after each other.

[Hawk]

Remember a few weeks ago when Heyman and said Shanks was a ghost writer for JS?