Ken Gurnick, eh???

[zitothebrave]

Hall of Fame? I have doubts if Greg Maddux even loves baseball.

Maddux doesn't fit the profile to not care about baseball. he's a baseball rat, a real grinder.

[The Chosen One]

Maddux doesn't fit the profile to not care about baseball. he's a baseball rat, a real grinder.

That's debatable. Maddux was more concerned with his wedge game and putting than baseball.

[Tapate50]

My new theory is the writers are conspiring to make Jeter the first unanimous first ballot hall of famer. They will magically "change the tradition held by the old guard that nobody deserves 100%, by voting Captain Jeter as the first ever unanimous inductee on his gold glove caliber defense alone. If anybody deserves 100%, it's Derek Jeter"

I just threw up a little.

[Carp]

And who does Boras work for? If Maddux had fired Boras I wouldnt hold it against him. Not firing him tells me he was okay with it. To me this is karma. He/his agent who represents him did something I consider unethical, now a dip**** writer did something intellectually unethical that may have deprived him of being the first player inducted into the hall of fame unanimously. Maddux will still get the highest % ever which is hardly a consolation prize. First ballot votes should go to guys who played atleast 95% of their career with one team. Guys like Chipper Jones.

Also I would never vote for a Yankee. To me anything done as a Yankee is about as meaningful as Sammy Sosa's stats on steroids with a corked bat.

No player gets heavily involved in negotiations unless they don't have an agent. And why would he fire Boras when he Boras was doing his job well? You also make no mention of the fact that Maddux was under paid for much of his latter yrs with the Braves.

JS made a bad business decision. If he didn't want him at that price, he should have negotiated an extension. Moreover, you have no idea what was or wasn't promised during negotiations. We only have reports from what JS said.

Quit being dense

[Millwood1Hitter]

Don't blame Maddux, if anyone deserves the blame for that fiasco it is JS.

Maddux was on the downfall of his career but still a solid pitcher in 2002. It was apparent the Glavine was on a bigger downfall after his atrocious 2002 second half and postseason, and letting him go to the Mets was the right move.

But yet JS wanted to sign Glavine to a long term deal (3 years) for less thAn the Mets. Why we didn't with Maddux who still was the better pitcher was baffling, but did offer him arbitration.

JS had to know that it could be likely because the market was soft for Maddux. It's another one of JS blunders and downright stubborneddd of not being able to negotiate with Boras after the Arod deal.

So JS cornered himself. Not only did it become more apparent that Maddux would accept arbitration closer to the deadline, JS was out wheeling and dealing and spending on mediocre pitching.

Hampton was acquired to be Glavines replacement, and for the first 3 years essentially would pitch for free for us, which is fine. You knew Hampton would turn it around in atl and be a solid starter.

It's the next two moved that are baffling and forced JS hand to deal our best pitcher Millwood as a salary dump and here him cry about the ecomics of baseball stink.

He acquired Russ Ortiz and sold high on Damien Moss. Fine, but in doing so we acquired salary we didn't need. But JS didn't stop there, he was wining and dining Shane Reynolds (who ironically ended up on the team after being cut later in the season after byrd went down to surgery), Woody Williams, & Paul byrd. And the most baffling part was signing Paul byrd for 2 years and 11 million. Bad move, and even worse after byrd hurt his elbow.

If JS doesn't sign Byrd then we don't have to move Milly.

I mean what was JS thinking?

I mean JS vision for rotation in 03 was Millwood, Ortiz, Hampton, Byrd, Marquis.

If JS doesn't panic, we end up with a much better rotation of Millwood, Maddux, Ortiz, Hampton, marquis.

But we ended up with Maddux, Ortiz, Hampton, Byrd, Marquis. Byrd would not throw a pitch for us in. 03 and was replaced with the travesty known as Shsnd Reynolds.

[The Chosen One]

I remember Sugar Shane's 2nd start with us. It was at home and I think he went 8 IP with 3 hits. After that it was a struggle for him just to get past the 4th inning. Had he not had that amazing offense to spot him runs... lol

[gilesfan]

Couldn't care less about unanimous votes, first or 2nd ballots, what have you. Like people concerned they got a 81%, when 80% is passing.

Having said that, this guy is an idiot and there are too many idiots voting for the HOF.

[The Chosen One]

Couldn't care less about unanimous votes, first or 2nd ballots, what have you. Like people concerned they got a 81%, when 80% is passing.

Having said that, this guy is an idiot and there are too many idiots voting for the HOF.

I think it's moreso that percentages and first ballots are validation to a lot of fans on how great the player was.

I think Maddux is universally respected by many fans as being one of the greatest pitchers ever especially since he didn't have overpowering stuff like Clemens, RJ or Pedro.

Many writers thought Maddux should be first unanimous, and a handful of writers are disappointed he didn't even break Seaver's mark.

[gilesfan]

He ws voted into the HOF so is considered one of the best ever. Being voted unanimously by a bunch of idiots doesn't add anything to his career. The validation is his numbers.

[The Chosen One]

Wouldn't say a bunch, just a handful. 16 guys left him off their ballot.

The point is the HOF voting is the official unofficial standard. There's a reason when Biggio gets elected he will have barely made it and not on the 1st ballot despite being one of the better 2B in his era.

Do I think it's kind of lame to have to wait to put guys in not on the 1st? Sure. I get why there is 1st Ballot and then there's non first ballot. It's to help separate hall of famers from elite inner circle hall of famers.

Again Maddux has done pretty much everything possible to be elected unanimously, if not break Seaver's mark. On top of that he was never a trouble maker nor prima donna. Never had antics on the field to show up other guys. If anybody deserved to at minimum break Seaver's mark it's Maddux. Statistically and competitively, and teammate wise he's one of the best players and best examples of what the best baseball has to offer. If the argument about HOF credentials is more than just numbers but about character (which is why PED guys and Rose aren't getting in probably in the next 2-3 decades), then Maddux exemplifies everything. Not as charitable as Smoltz, but has always been considered a decent guy (unless you're his teammate being pranked on).

[NYCBrave]

Don't blame Maddux, if anyone deserves the blame for that fiasco it is JS.

Maddux was on the downfall of his career but still a solid pitcher in 2002. It was apparent the Glavine was on a bigger downfall after his atrocious 2002 second half and postseason, and letting him go to the Mets was the right move.

But yet JS wanted to sign Glavine to a long term deal (3 years) for less thAn the Mets. Why we didn't with Maddux who still was the better pitcher was baffling, but did offer him arbitration.

JS had to know that it could be likely because the market was soft for Maddux. It's another one of JS blunders and downright stubborneddd of not being able to negotiate with Boras after the Arod deal.

So JS cornered himself. Not only did it become more apparent that Maddux would accept arbitration closer to the deadline, JS was out wheeling and dealing and spending on mediocre pitching.

Hampton was acquired to be Glavines replacement, and for the first 3 years essentially would pitch for free for us, which is fine. You knew Hampton would turn it around in atl and be a solid starter.

It's the next two moved that are baffling and forced JS hand to deal our best pitcher Millwood as a salary dump and here him cry about the ecomics of baseball stink.

He acquired Russ Ortiz and sold high on Damien Moss. Fine, but in doing so we acquired salary we didn't need. But JS didn't stop there, he was wining and dining Shane Reynolds (who ironically ended up on the team after being cut later in the season after byrd went down to surgery), Woody Williams, & Paul byrd. And the most baffling part was signing Paul byrd for 2 years and 11 million. Bad move, and even worse after byrd hurt his elbow.

If JS doesn't sign Byrd then we don't have to move Milly.

I mean what was JS thinking?

I mean JS vision for rotation in 03 was Millwood, Ortiz, Hampton, Byrd, Marquis.

If JS doesn't panic, we end up with a much better rotation of Millwood, Maddux, Ortiz, Hampton, marquis.

But we ended up with Maddux, Ortiz, Hampton, Byrd, Marquis. Byrd would not throw a pitch for us in. 03 and was replaced with the travesty known as Shsnd Reynolds.

Did you just run these facts off the top of your head?? If so, wow you have a good memory lol

[bravebonebook]

Another example (in a long line of them) of why MLB is really screwed up from top to bottom. They cannot even vote for Hall of Fame without controversy...

[50PoundHead]

My new theory is the writers are conspiring to make Jeter the first unanimous first ballot hall of famer. They will magically "change the tradition held by the old guard that nobody deserves 100%, by voting Captain Jeter as the first ever unanimous inductee on his gold glove caliber defense alone. If anybody deserves 100%, it's Derek Jeter"

I doubt there is any way that Jeter is a unanimous choice. He'll go in the first year he's eligible (and he should), but it won't be unanimous.

[50PoundHead]

Don't blame Maddux, if anyone deserves the blame for that fiasco it is JS.

Maddux was on the downfall of his career but still a solid pitcher in 2002. It was apparent the Glavine was on a bigger downfall after his atrocious 2002 second half and postseason, and letting him go to the Mets was the right move.

But yet JS wanted to sign Glavine to a long term deal (3 years) for less thAn the Mets. Why we didn't with Maddux who still was the better pitcher was baffling, but did offer him arbitration.

JS had to know that it could be likely because the market was soft for Maddux. It's another one of JS blunders and downright stubborneddd of not being able to negotiate with Boras after the Arod deal.

So JS cornered himself. Not only did it become more apparent that Maddux would accept arbitration closer to the deadline, JS was out wheeling and dealing and spending on mediocre pitching.

Hampton was acquired to be Glavines replacement, and for the first 3 years essentially would pitch for free for us, which is fine. You knew Hampton would turn it around in atl and be a solid starter.

It's the next two moved that are baffling and forced JS hand to deal our best pitcher Millwood as a salary dump and here him cry about the ecomics of baseball stink.

He acquired Russ Ortiz and sold high on Damien Moss. Fine, but in doing so we acquired salary we didn't need. But JS didn't stop there, he was wining and dining Shane Reynolds (who ironically ended up on the team after being cut later in the season after byrd went down to surgery), Woody Williams, & Paul byrd. And the most baffling part was signing Paul byrd for 2 years and 11 million. Bad move, and even worse after byrd hurt his elbow.

If JS doesn't sign Byrd then we don't have to move Milly.

I mean what was JS thinking?

I mean JS vision for rotation in 03 was Millwood, Ortiz, Hampton, Byrd, Marquis.

If JS doesn't panic, we end up with a much better rotation of Millwood, Maddux, Ortiz, Hampton, marquis.

But we ended up with Maddux, Ortiz, Hampton, Byrd, Marquis. Byrd would not throw a pitch for us in. 03 and was replaced with the travesty known as Shsnd Reynolds.

I agree that Schuerholz totally panicked and then blamed the "economics of baseball" for his mistakes. I even think trading for Hampton was questionable and Hampton was deemed healthy at the time. Just Schuerholz trying to prove once again how far ahead of the curve he was by making moves when he just should have kicked back and let the dust settle before doing anything.

[gilesfan]

Wouldn't say a bunch, just a handful. 16 guys left him off their ballot.

The point is the HOF voting is the official unofficial standard. There's a reason when Biggio gets elected he will have barely made it and not on the 1st ballot despite being one of the better 2B in his era.

Do I think it's kind of lame to have to wait to put guys in not on the 1st? Sure. I get why there is 1st Ballot and then there's non first ballot. It's to help separate hall of famers from elite inner circle hall of famers.

Again Maddux has done pretty much everything possible to be elected unanimously, if not break Seaver's mark. On top of that he was never a trouble maker nor prima donna. Never had antics on the field to show up other guys. If anybody deserved to at minimum break Seaver's mark it's Maddux. Statistically and competitively, and teammate wise he's one of the best players and best examples of what the best baseball has to offer. If the argument about HOF credentials is more than just numbers but about character (which is why PED guys and Rose aren't getting in probably in the next 2-3 decades), then Maddux exemplifies everything. Not as charitable as Smoltz, but has always been considered a decent guy (unless you're his teammate being pranked on).

Who actually remember if a guy was a unanimous pick or a first ballot HOFer vs. a regular ole joe schmoe HOFer?

[JohnAdcox]

That's debatable. Maddux was more concerned with his wedge game and putting than baseball.

And too obsessed with the long ball to develop onto a real hitter.

[AUTiger7222]

I didn't remember the slide Glavine siffered in the 2nd half of the 2002 season. Just went back and looked at the numbers and wow.

First 18 starts of the season - 123 2/3 IP, 98 H, 31 R, 24 ER, 8 HR, 32 BB, 73 SO, 1.75 ERA, .221/.278/.329
Last 18 starts of the season - 101 IP, 112 H, 54 R, 50 ER, 13 HR, 46 BB, 54 SO, 4.46 ERA, .289/.367/.464

What a damn good memory to be able to remember that.

I don't think JS made a mistake in trading for Hampton as Glavine's replacement. Hampton also turned out to pitch very well his first few years in Atlanta before his arm completely gave out. I also don't think trading for Ortiz was a mistake especially considering he really only gave up Damien Moss for him and anyone that saw Moss pitch knew that his 2002 season was a fluke and that he would never repeat that. But I do think he badly underestimated Maddux's willingness to accept arbitration. Agree that it was a major mistake to sign Byrd for the price that he did especially considering Byrd's injury history.

I think JS wrongly gets too much credit for the Braves success of the 90s and that Frank Wren gets too much blame for the BRaves success of the last few years. JMO on that.

[Millwood1Hitter]

I agree AUTigrer on JS and FW.

JS might be the most overrated GM of his generation, he wasn't awful by any means but his legacy as great isn't justified. Yes, he needs credit for filling in the holes in the early 1990s with veterans on an absolutely young and loaded organization, but Schueholzs arrogance and superiority attitude prevented him from assembling complete teams in the mid to late 90s as well as smugness and attitude in dealing with specific agents in the early 00s that cost us dearly down the line.

In mind JS was superb up to 1996, after our collapse against the yanks JS made a lot of questionable moves. It started with the Justice/Grissom trade for Lofton/Embree in which after one year we had nothing to show for.

After the 1997 debacle our window was closing on being legitimate WS contenders. JS did just enough to keep us competitive in a relatively weak division, keeping the streak alive, but failed to put together a complete team that had a great shot at a WS. Subsequently after our WS run in 1999 it started to show, as only the 2001 team would make it out if the first round.

Our teams during that time frame were unbalanced with considerable holes at important positions.

While it may be that the great 98 yanks team still wins the series, 1998 was as good of a chance to go for it as any. We had arguably the best 5 man starting pitching staff in history and a phenomenal middle of the lineup with chipper, galarraga, Lopez, Klesko, and Andruw in the lineup. We had a great defensive ss on Weiss. We had decent depth with Gerald Williams, Danny Bautista, tony graffanino, and Eddie Perez. What we lacked though, is a true lead off hitter. We didn't take advantage of our great middle of the lineup with Weiss and Lockhart at the top of the order and failed to manufacturer runs, which cost us when going up against top flight pitching. JS could have put us over the top by trading for Roberto Alomar, who was on a falling Os team and in the last year of contract and was available. Alomar fit like a glove, was exactly what we needed. Another player available was Johnny Damon, whom while not the fit that Alomar would have been, would have given us a viable lead off man with speed to put in front of our deadly boppers. I mean could you imagine a lineup of Alomsr, Andruw, Chipper, galarraga, Klesko, Lopez, tucker/Williams, Weiss lineup. The bullpen as usual was suspect as well. JS decided to stand pat and instead acquire Greg Colbrunn.

In 1999 JS had to make amends to get more production out of RF when he traded Justice two years earlier, so he put the press on for Jordan, which was fine but first JS needed to clear salary to make room for him making Neagle expendable, whose contract extension at an area of strength caused the Justice trade in the first place. But instead of trading Neagle straight up for Fernando Vina, who would have filled the second base and lead off role perfect, JS opted to move Neagle, Tucker, and young stud Robb bell for another free swinging high so middle of the order batter in Boone and swing man Remlinger. Remlinger turned out to be a key component to many bullpens, but Boone was not a fit at all. JS did relatively nothing despite the fact we ended up with season ending injuries to Ligtenberg (closer), Lopez, Galarraga, and Seanez. We ended up getting Greg Myers to be Eddies backup and another free swinger in Jose Hernandez and swing man Terry Mulhollamd. The Boone move was a precursor to another classic JS blunder.

So JS finally decided that in order to utilize our generally great middle of the orders we needed speed and a true lead off hitter to manufacture runs at the top of the order. In comes Quilvio Veras, exactly what the doctor ordered at second base. Fine, but JS also threw in Klesko for more speed in Sanders. Sanders would go on to have the worst year of his career. Klesko should have been kept, as he was a productive and clutch player, as well as full time 1b after Galarraga moved on. Wally Joyner was a throw in as insurance in case Galarraga didn't recover from cancer. But the Klesko move cost us dearly as the Braves and JS were searching for a viable 1b from 01-04 until Laroche came along. Year in and year out our 1b was a rotating door with failed experiments in Rico Bologna, Wes Helms, Ken Caminiti until we got lucky and found Julio Franco at age 70 in the Mexicsn Leagur to at least give us league average production.

But back to the San Diego trade, with Sanders struggling so bad through July and seemingly never getting back on track, it prompted another classic JS move, trading for BJ Surhoff, whose production was a by product of Camden yard. Surhoff gave us nothing in 2.5 years as a Brave. We had to give up a young highly touted hard throwing pitcher in Luis Rivera.

Also in classic JS fashion, with Smoltz out for the year and Millwood struggling with a sore shoulder, we needed a reliable starter behind Maddux and Glavine and JSs answer, Andy Ashby, whom like Surhoff was past his prime and hardly an impact player. We traded highly touted prospect Chen and another middle road prospect in Osting for Ashby. By then it was apparent that Chen was too hittable and his value declined significantly, just 2 years earlier the Os would have been very interested in Chen as the main piece in the Alomar trade. In typical JS fashion he settled on mediocrity with Ashby instead of going for it and grabbing an impact pitcher like Schilling (preferably and the snakes package wasn't that good, and this is Ed wade were talking about) or our old friend Denny Neagle. Subsequently, this is the first time we got bounced in the first round. We see what schilling did in the future for the snakes. Ashby and Sanders were gone at the end if the year

By this time, our window was pretty much closed on being a dominant force. Maddux and Glavine were still great but not dominant, Smoltz was coming back from major surgery and would transition to the pen. Our once strength was diluted as Millwood still struggled in 01, we got magic out of Burkett but the 01 team was the weakest with no real strength and played in a terrible division. We had major weaknesses in LF with the aforementioned Surhoff, no 1B with failed projects like Rico and Caminiti until we settled with Julio in September. We lost Quilvio who failed to recover from injury and relied on Giles to be his replacement and lead off hitter when Furcal went down, only to be replaced in typical JS fashion in Rey Sanchez.

In 2002 JS finally made his first big impact trade by getting Sheffield. By then it was too little too late. JS failed, because of his pride and inability to deal with super agent Borass after the ARod deal, to sign Sheffield to an extension which set in motion a whole another chain of events that set this organization back. Sheffield wanted to stay. But jS still failed to put together a complete team in. 02 before he traded for Sheffield in January. JS had a chance to upgrade our biggest hole by trading Jason marquis to the reds for Sean Casey. Instead he opted to let 1b go, sign Castilla and move Chipper to the outfield. The Albie Lopez signing was an absolute waste of funds, unless JS moved Maquis for a 1B, which he didn't. We had a great chance at one last final run if JS got a legitimate 1B. He had to go for it then. Thome was available at the deadline. We didn't proceed and got knocked out of the playoffs by a mediocre Giants pitching staff. How good would Klesko at 1st been in 2001-2002?

I touched on the 2003 fiasco of Millwood. Again JS unwillingness to deal and communicate with Boras cost us and it would cost us more the following offseason.

Sheffield moves on with Boras in limbo and a failure to communicate with JS, which leads us to trade Wainwright for Drew, another Boras client that would move on one year later during free agency. Then there was the Texeria disaster.

I'm not touching on everything, but in my opinion JS set a chain of events in effect that did not lead to complete teams with a legit shot at the WS. He is overrated.

[The Chosen One]

You're going to break the website writing so much.

Keep it up. Show these rookies how it's done.

[AUTiger7222]

I agree AUTigrer on JS and FW.

JS might be the most overrated GM of his generation, he wasn't awful by any means but his legacy as great isn't justified. Yes, he needs credit for filling in the holes in the early 1990s with veterans on an absolutely young and loaded organization, but Schueholzs arrogance and superiority attitude prevented him from assembling complete teams in the mid to late 90s as well as smugness and attitude in dealing with specific agents in the early 00s that cost us dearly down the line.

In mind JS was superb up to 1996, after our collapse against the yanks JS made a lot of questionable moves. It started with the Justice/Grissom trade for Lofton/Embree in which after one year we had nothing to show for.

After the 1997 debacle our window was closing on being legitimate WS contenders. JS did just enough to keep us competitive in a relatively weak division, keeping the streak alive, but failed to put together a complete team that had a great shot at a WS. Subsequently after our WS run in 1999 it started to show, as only the 2001 team would make it out if the first round.

Our teams during that time frame were unbalanced with considerable holes at important positions.

While it may be that the great 98 yanks team still wins the series, 1998 was as good of a chance to go for it as any. We had arguably the best 5 man starting pitching staff in history and a phenomenal middle of the lineup with chipper, galarraga, Lopez, Klesko, and Andruw in the lineup. We had a great defensive ss on Weiss. We had decent depth with Gerald Williams, Danny Bautista, tony graffanino, and Eddie Perez. What we lacked though, is a true lead off hitter. We didn't take advantage of our great middle of the lineup with Weiss and Lockhart at the top of the order and failed to manufacturer runs, which cost us when going up against top flight pitching. JS could have put us over the top by trading for Roberto Alomar, who was on a falling Os team and in the last year of contract and was available. Alomar fit like a glove, was exactly what we needed. Another player available was Johnny Damon, whom while not the fit that Alomar would have been, would have given us a viable lead off man with speed to put in front of our deadly boppers. I mean could you imagine a lineup of Alomsr, Andruw, Chipper, galarraga, Klesko, Lopez, tucker/Williams, Weiss lineup. The bullpen as usual was suspect as well. JS decided to stand pat and instead acquire Greg Colbrunn.

In 1999 JS had to make amends to get more production out of RF when he traded Justice two years earlier, so he put the press on for Jordan, which was fine but first JS needed to clear salary to make room for him making Neagle expendable, whose contract extension at an area of strength caused the Justice trade in the first place. But instead of trading Neagle straight up for Fernando Vina, who would have filled the second base and lead off role perfect, JS opted to move Neagle, Tucker, and young stud Robb bell for another free swinging high so middle of the order batter in Boone and swing man Remlinger. Remlinger turned out to be a key component to many bullpens, but Boone was not a fit at all. JS did relatively nothing despite the fact we ended up with season ending injuries to Ligtenberg (closer), Lopez, Galarraga, and Seanez. We ended up getting Greg Myers to be Eddies backup and another free swinger in Jose Hernandez and swing man Terry Mulhollamd. The Boone move was a precursor to another classic JS blunder.

So JS finally decided that in order to utilize our generally great middle of the orders we needed speed and a true lead off hitter to manufacture runs at the top of the order. In comes Quilvio Veras, exactly what the doctor ordered at second base. Fine, but JS also threw in Klesko for more speed in Sanders. Sanders would go on to have the worst year of his career. Klesko should have been kept, as he was a productive and clutch player, as well as full time 1b after Galarraga moved on. Wally Joyner was a throw in as insurance in case Galarraga didn't recover from cancer. But the Klesko move cost us dearly as the Braves and JS were searching for a viable 1b from 01-04 until Laroche came along. Year in and year out our 1b was a rotating door with failed experiments in Rico Bologna, Wes Helms, Ken Caminiti until we got lucky and found Julio Franco at age 70 in the Mexicsn Leagur to at least give us league average production.

But back to the San Diego trade, with Sanders struggling so bad through July and seemingly never getting back on track, it prompted another classic JS move, trading for BJ Surhoff, whose production was a by product of Camden yard. Surhoff gave us nothing in 2.5 years as a Brave. We had to give up a young highly touted hard throwing pitcher in Luis Rivera.

Also in classic JS fashion, with Smoltz out for the year and Millwood struggling with a sore shoulder, we needed a reliable starter behind Maddux and Glavine and JSs answer, Andy Ashby, whom like Surhoff was past his prime and hardly an impact player. We traded highly touted prospect Chen and another middle road prospect in Osting for Ashby. By then it was apparent that Chen was too hittable and his value declined significantly, just 2 years earlier the Os would have been very interested in Chen as the main piece in the Alomar trade. In typical JS fashion he settled on mediocrity with Ashby instead of going for it and grabbing an impact pitcher like Schilling (preferably and the snakes package wasn't that good, and this is Ed wade were talking about) or our old friend Denny Neagle. Subsequently, this is the first time we got bounced in the first round. We see what schilling did in the future for the snakes. Ashby and Sanders were gone at the end if the year

By this time, our window was pretty much closed on being a dominant force. Maddux and Glavine were still great but not dominant, Smoltz was coming back from major surgery and would transition to the pen. Our once strength was diluted as Millwood still struggled in 01, we got magic out of Burkett but the 01 team was the weakest with no real strength and played in a terrible division. We had major weaknesses in LF with the aforementioned Surhoff, no 1B with failed projects like Rico and Caminiti until we settled with Julio in September. We lost Quilvio who failed to recover from injury and relied on Giles to be his replacement and lead off hitter when Furcal went down, only to be replaced in typical JS fashion in Rey Sanchez.

In 2002 JS finally made his first big impact trade by getting Sheffield. By then it was too little too late. JS failed, because of his pride and inability to deal with super agent Borass after the ARod deal, to sign Sheffield to an extension which set in motion a whole another chain of events that set this organization back. Sheffield wanted to stay. But jS still failed to put together a complete team in. 02 before he traded for Sheffield in January. JS had a chance to upgrade our biggest hole by trading Jason marquis to the reds for Sean Casey. Instead he opted to let 1b go, sign Castilla and move Chipper to the outfield. The Albie Lopez signing was an absolute waste of funds, unless JS moved Maquis for a 1B, which he didn't. We had a great chance at one last final run if JS got a legitimate 1B. He had to go for it then. Thome was available at the deadline. We didn't proceed and got knocked out of the playoffs by a mediocre Giants pitching staff. How good would Klesko at 1st been in 2001-2002?

I touched on the 2003 fiasco of Millwood. Again JS unwillingness to deal and communicate with Boras cost us and it would cost us more the following offseason.

Sheffield moves on with Boras in limbo and a failure to communicate with JS, which leads us to trade Wainwright for Drew, another Boras client that would move on one year later during free agency. Then there was the Texeria disaster.

I'm not touching on everything, but in my opinion JS set a chain of events in effect that did not lead to complete teams with a legit shot at the WS. He is overrated.

I agree with you about everything except for the BJ Surhoff move. You make it seem like we traded an in his prime Babe Ruth for Rafael Belliard. Luis Rivera would go on to do nothing in his career because of injuries. Surhoff on the other hand actually did well for the Braves before his Braves tendure ended with a blown out knee. I mean he wasn't your classic bopper that you like out of 1B/Corner OF but he did well for the Braves. He would have been fine on a loaded team like the 98 team. But he was asked to be one of the guys to carry the Braves offense and he wasn't that type of hitter.

2000 - 44 Games - .289/.352/.414 (.766)
2001 - 141 Games - .271.321/.405 (.726)
2002 - 25 Games - .293/.369/.360 (.729)

You're correct that JS didn't factor in the difference in going from a hitters park of Camden Yards to a pitcher's park of Turner Field.

But it's quite amazing that you remember so many of the details around these trades. I consider myself an expert on the Braves and have been praised many times for my knowledge but your knowledge of the Braves makes me look like I know absolutely nothing.