Megathread: Braves lose Maitan, Bae and 10+ plus International Sanctions.

[50PoundHead]

NOT A HEYWARD THREAD

I think I started it by accident and I now apologize.

[Managuarantano's Volunteers]

I'm pretty disillusioned with McGuirk, JS, and Hart at this point, so it's hard to figure out who to root for to influence this GM search.

Agree with this.

[50PoundHead]

As Ken Rosenthal of The Athletic reported, 15 teams are being investigated for signing prospects before they were eligible to be signed, so there presumably must have been something else.

I find this mildly interesting from the same article.

As I have posted previously, the international market has become increasingly fraught with misbehavior by almost every major league franchise. I never was a strong advocate of an international draft, but that seems to be the only way out of this.

[rico43]

I don't get the negativity about young JS. He's done things the right way; on field as player and manager, working his way up through fairly menial system job and staying true to the Braves the whole time. There is little evidence that he is a lightweight like many seem to think.

[striker42]

I don't get the negativity about young JS. He's done things the right way; on field as player and manager, working his way up through fairly menial system job and staying true to the Braves the whole time. There is little evidence that he is a lightweight like many seem to think.

All I can think is that people assume he's incompetent because he's JS's son and so it smacks of nepotism. That's not fair. It's possible he's not cut out for the big chair but it's just as unfair to exclude him because of who his dad is as it is to give him the job because of who his dad is.

He should be judged based on his own merits.

[CJ9]

I don't get the negativity about young JS. He's done things the right way; on field as player and manager, working his way up through fairly menial system job and staying true to the Braves the whole time. There is little evidence that he is a lightweight like many seem to think.

I don't know anything about him, just sick of this organization being afraid to hire outside people.

[50PoundHead]

All I can think is that people assume he's incompetent because he's JS's son and so it smacks of nepotism. That's not fair. It's possible he's not cut out for the big chair but it's just as unfair to exclude him because of who his dad is as it is to give him the job because of who his dad is.

He should be judged based on his own merits.

I'm not assuming anything about young JS. I just think the nepotism thing stinks. If he's the best person for the job, fine. Move him up. I just think they should scour every corner of the baseball world to make certain they are making the right decision instead of simply moving a guy up because of his proximity to the franchise.

[BeanieAntics]

Obviously people's hesitancy with junior is his dad and the likelihood that he sees baseball in the same light. Perhaps we are wrong and he is a young analytical genius. I don't know anything about him other than his dad. But I think its more likely that he subscribes to his father's philosophy, and if that is the case then I want no part of him as our GM now or in the future

[Managuarantano's Volunteers]

I'm not assuming anything about young JS. I just think the nepotism thing stinks. If he's the best person for the job, fine. Move him up. I just think they should scour every corner of the baseball world to make certain they are making the right decision instead of simply moving a guy up because of his proximity to the franchise.

Agree with this. I basically just want someone other than JS Sr. to put JS Jr. in that position, but I think JS Jr. has done things the right way and have nothing against him.

[MadduxFanII]

If Jonathan Schuerholz was Jonathan McGillicuddy, would he have been selected in the 8th round of the draft out of Auburn? Would he have been promoted to AAA despite a demonstrated inability to hit the baseball? Would he have been given a roving instructor gig right after finishing college? Would he have been promoted to an important front office job? Would there would be serious talk of him as a future GM?

I don’t know the answers to those questions. I’m skeptical, but I’m sure it’s possible the answers are all “yes.” I have no doubt JS Jr is a sedulous, dedicated employee.

I would be much more convinced of his worth if he had ever held a job in professional baseball that wasn’t with an organization where his father was the crucial decision-maker. Spend five years working up the ladder for the Brewers or the Mariners or the Rockies and we’ll talk.

[smootness]

If Jonathan Schuerholz was Jonathan McGillicuddy, would he have been selected in the 8th round of the draft out of Auburn? Would he have been promoted to AAA despite a demonstrated inability to hit the baseball? Would he have been given a roving instructor gig right after finishing college? Would he have been promoted to an important front office job? Would there would be serious talk of him as a future GM?

I don’t know the answers to those questions. I’m skeptical, but I’m sure it’s possible the answers are all “yes.” I have no doubt JS Jr is a sedulous, dedicated employee.

I would be much more convinced of his worth if he had ever held a job in professional baseball that wasn’t with an organization where his father was the crucial decision-maker. Spend five years working up the ladder for the Brewers or the Mariners or the Rockies and we’ll talk.

Of course not. But he is not very high up right now and is not being groomed to be a future GM, at least not currently in Atlanta.

[thewupk]

Betcha if you've got time to go search the ones that were on that list +3 more OPS+ points you don't find $184 million men either.

If they haven't been created in the last 5 minutes, they're ALL flawed stats, no?

I play with numbers all day too - can likely make your house worth a million bucks if I work at it.

OPS is flawed. It undervalues OBP and that has been known for quite some time. I'm not saying that because I was pro Heyward. It's just an absolute fact. A 400 OBP/400 SLG guy will be 9 times out of 10 more valuable than a 350 OBO/450 SLG guy.

The offensive difference between Justin Upton and Jason Heyward from 2012-2015 is negligible and Upton is making 22 million a year. Like it was stated when that deal was signed. Some people don't understand the current economics of baseball.

[thewupk]

I think the latest process has been fraught with miscues and the thought behind the overall framework is faulty, but I don't think the problem with the Wren era was simply bad luck. Wren (and by extension those above him) ran the team as if it still had Turner's pocketbook. We had graduated a bunch of very good players from the minor league system, but we had no ready replacements for the departure of impending free agents and no money to hit the top drawer free agent market.

I don't want to make this about Wren v. Coppolella, but I hope as we move to the next phase, we find someone who will concentrate on constructing a long-term sustainable strategy that recognizes both the strengths and constraints under which the team operates. I don't think we've had that since the early 2000s. Even the latter years of the Schuerholz era were characterized by reflexive hiccups that refused to deal with the realities of the Braves' situation.

Not all of Wren's problems were bad luck. I think he did more good than bad though. I do think a lot of the pitching issues that ending up catching up with the Braves were mainly due to bad luck. The Braves had a rotation and a half of young promising pitchers get injured and just be done. Even if they weren't destined to be extended they could have been used in trades like Tampa does to replenish the farm. Braves never had that chance and it sucked.

[clvclv]

Duplicate.

[clvclv]

OPS is flawed. It undervalues OBP and that has been known for quite some time. I'm not saying that because I was pro Heyward. It's just an absolute fact. A 400 OBP/400 SLG guy will be 9 times out of 10 more valuable than a 350 OBO/450 SLG guy.

The offensive difference between Justin Upton and Jason Heyward from 2012-2015 is negligible and Upton is making 22 million a year. Like it was stated when that deal was signed. Some people don't understand the current economics of baseball.

For the sake of the thread, I decline to go further - his offense is so bad, you can't justify the contract.

[thewupk]

For the sake of the thread, I decline to go further - his offense is so bad, you can't justify the contract.

My last comment will be this. Nobody is trying to justify the contract right now. It's awful. However nobody expected him to be this bad. The negative comments were about how his offense alone from 2012-2015 didn't justify that big of a deal and that it would be bad value once his defense declined as he got older. Not one poster, even yourself, believed Heyward would regress to the hitter he is now. Trying to switch the argument around 2 years later is revising history to meet your needs.

[striker42]

Not all of Wren's problems were bad luck. I think he did more good than bad though. I do think a lot of the pitching issues that ending up catching up with the Braves were mainly due to bad luck. The Braves had a rotation and a half of young promising pitchers get injured and just be done. Even if they weren't destined to be extended they could have been used in trades like Tampa does to replenish the farm. Braves never had that chance and it sucked.

Wren was very adept at trades and his efforts in Latin America were excellent. His problems were in free agent signings, extensions, and drafting. He was responsible for the anchors around our neck of guys like Lowe, KK, Chris Johnson (post extension), Uggla, Upton, etc. He consistently had a huge portion of our budget tied up in dead assets.

Then there were some bad drafts that really sapped the farm. The dead weight kept us from ever really being an exceptional team under him and the bad drafts gave concern for the future.

But there is no doubt he made some excellent trades.

[bravesfanMatt]

My last comment will be this. Nobody is trying to justify the contract right now. It's awful. However nobody expected him to be this bad. The negative comments were about how his offense alone from 2012-2015 didn't justify that big of a deal and that it would be bad value once his defense declined as he got older. Not one poster, even yourself, believed Heyward would regress to the hitter he is now. Trying to switch the argument around 2 years later is revising history to meet your needs.

I would take J-hey right now!! If the Cubs would take some/most of Kemp's money the better...

OF of Acuna/Ender/Jhey would own hitters.

[zitothebrave]

Wren was very adept at trades and his efforts in Latin America were excellent. His problems were in free agent signings, extensions, and drafting. He was responsible for the anchors around our neck of guys like Lowe, KK, Chris Johnson (post extension), Uggla, Upton, etc. He consistently had a huge portion of our budget tied up in dead assets.

Then there were some bad drafts that really sapped the farm. The dead weight kept us from ever really being an exceptional team under him and the bad drafts gave concern for the future.

But there is no doubt he made some excellent trades.

No one panned at the time any of the deals. Kawakami was an excessive move considering Hanson was on the horizon but again, you need to look at the past. In 2008 our second leading starting pitcher was Jair Jurrjens, so yes Wren went overboard bringing in 4 new pitchers. Especially with Hanson along the way, and Hudson going to eventually be coming back. But the BRaves rotation was in shambles at the end of 08 and he overreacted. I think he would admit that he shouldn't have signed either GLavine or Kawakami and divested that money elsewhere. But that's hindsight. Kawakami was a waste in the end. But he wasn't that bad. You make it seem like Lowe or Kawakami were total bums and they weren't. They were overpaid but pretty much anyone you acquire through free agency is overpaid. But Kawakami by either rWAR or fWAR was an above replacement player If you use fWAR according to fangraphs he was worth about 16M and we paid him 23 so it's not a huge loss. Same with Lowe, using rWAR he was worth about 2 WAR in his years here. A let down but not a crusher.

Really of the things you listed, the only move that was panned at the time was the Johnson extension. And I'm talking about panned by baseball people, not about panned by a few posters. Uggla was the riskiest of the moves but most assumed that half of the contract would be worth it and the other half wouldn't. For example

https://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/dan-...his-extension/

[zitothebrave]

I want some more news. The more I'm reading the more it seems like the Braves were just doing business as usual and Coppy is the scapegoat. And this may have been a convenient excuse to just get rid of him and not look like the jerks.