Originally Posted by chop2chip
Jaw (10-06-2017)
Oh man
Strong work . I lold
That picture gave me a heart attack. Thanks.
bravesfanforlife88 (10-06-2017), JohnAdcox (10-06-2017)
No puppet, no puppet. YOU'RE the puppet.
Julio3000 (10-06-2017), Metaphysicist (10-08-2017)
People **** on Wren's drafts, but they were moderately. And his first few drafts were all about replenishing a massively depleted upper minors that JS left Wren. ANd later sure there were some bombs, but there also were some high quality picks.
Stockholm, more densely populated than NYC - sturg
his 1st rounders were terrible.
It was the overall philosophy. We drafted low-ceiling college talent or one-tool HS talent at the top of drafts. You're shooting yourself in the foot doing that, we were never going to end up with top talent with that strategy.
Can we all just agree that it isn't a Wren vs Coppy thing but a not Wren, not Coppy thing?
Jaw (10-06-2017), JohnAdcox (10-06-2017), Managuarantano's Volunteers (10-06-2017)
As good as Wren ostensibly was at identifying top international talent, he was that bad at identifying draft talent. I look back at some of those drafts and literally have no idea what he was thinking with a lot of those picks. Honestly, if he could have drafted a little better and we had some semblance of a farm system, he probably would have gotten a shot at being the one who made the rebuild trades (i.e. Upton/Heyward).
More specifically, with those early picks you have to go for the high ceiling guys. Gilmartin is the poster child here. Some people lump Hursh with him, but my recollection is that this was not how Hursh was viewed in the pre-draft discussion.
I actually don't have a problem focusing more on college players (especially pitchers) from the 4th round onward. You want a mix, but the data show the Braves have had a better yield when they pick college pitchers from the 4th round on. Better yield whether you look at percentage who make the majors, or productivity once they hit the majors.
"I am a victim, I will tell you. I am a victim."
"I am your retribution."
How are you recovering after the aneurysm?
Ivermectin Man
The one thing that isn't often discussed with Wren and something I wonder how big of a role it played in his firing was his managerial style.
DOB was on Buster Olney's podcast and talked about how he had no idea how toxic the situation in the Braves front office had gotten under Coppy because people were scared to say anything for fear of getting fired or demoted. He then talked about how getting a GM like Dayton Moore would go a long way to fixing that because people genuinely enjoy working under Moore like they did working under JS. He noted that while Coppy was worse than Wren, Braves employees didn't particularly like working for Wren. He was a micromanager and didn't really treat people well.
It wouldn't surprise me if employee dissatisfaction and defections contributed a lot to Wren's demise. I wonder if he was a better manager of people if would have been given a chance to rebuild too.
Apologies if this was already posted from Dave Cameron's chat. I don't recall seeing it:
Ryan from NC: I was going to ask you about Kiley McDaniel’s status in light of ongoing Atlanta implosion. But then I read that he’s been “demoted” to West Coast crosschecker. https://www.talkingchop.com/2017/10/...eassign…
Dave Cameron: He didn’t get demoted; he took that job several weeks ago, well before all this came out.
....
Q-Ball: From the outside, it looked like Coppolella was doing a really good job rebuilding the Braves. Couple headscratcher moves (Kemp, Olivera), but mostly he was doing a good job on surface. Would you agree with that?
Dave Cameron: Nope.
Dave Cameron: The farm system is in good shape, but the Major League team is mostly a mess.
Dave Cameron: The prospects are mostly very high risk types.
Dave Cameron: I don’t think the Braves are all that close to being good, and they haven’t done a good job of managing fan expectations.
....
Ducky Mansyrup: Only negative thing I ever heard about Coppolella was that he would pepper teams about players he was about to release and asking for top 10 prospects. How much does behavior like that make other teams simply not take anything seriously?
Dave Cameron: That is not the only reason other teams didn’t like dealing with him.
Dave Cameron: Alex Anthopolous used to bug everyone for trade talks at all times, but he didn’t get on people’s nerves the same way.
....
CamdenWarehouse: Re Braves managing fan expectations – I don’t think that’s an easy job. These guys think Markakis and Kemp could return top prospects
Dave Cameron: Because the organization sold those guys as assets.
Dave Cameron: That’s on the organization, not the fans.
dak (10-06-2017), Hawk (10-06-2017), Metaphysicist (10-08-2017)
I've just recently discovered that this Nubyjas Wilborn fellow existed. He's a pretty good reporter. Love seeing that item in bold.
People in baseball believe that Snitker and Hart would like to see a bench coach who knows how to combine advanced analytics and old-school baseball to help Snitker with lineups and strategy. Longtime coach and former MVP Terry Pendleton would have to demonstrate that he is willing to pick up the numbers if he wants to stay. The Braves also want to improve on the basepaths, so they may look to pick up a coach who can help the young Braves become smarter on the bases.Sanctions against the Braves will not be announced until after the World Series, with the commissioner’s office not wanting to take anything away from the playoffs. Of note, there are 15 other teams being investigated for pre-draft dealings.http://www.mdjonline.com/sports/brav...5bdbd50c6.htmlThere could still be more people whose jobs are in danger. According to sources familiar to the situation, scouting director Brian Bridges and special assistant to the general manager Chad McDonald are also being investigated. Bridges handles domestic drafts and McDonald runs Asian scouting. “If they were doing it in Latin America, why wouldn’t they in other places?” a source with knowledge of the investigation said. “It’s hard to believe that Coppolella acted without help, so pretty much everybody is a suspect.”
Jaw (10-06-2017)
It's worth asking if the people working in Braves front office are a little too precious given their sniping at two gms.
Maybe a clean sweep shouldn't end at top.
15 teams being investigated and Coppy is the only GM fired.
Scapegoat. Obvious to all but the most daft.
While I agree with you, it's not like Coppy was some Gold Standard GM anyway. Of course, if this is some kind of monumental shift away from analytics of any kind back to horse and buggy scouting then that is a bigger problem. But Coppy the individual doesn't concern me.
I don't think a desire to not be micromanaged and not be belittled is a bad thing. You're not going to keep the best talent if you do those things. Think about it, if you're a well regarded crosschecker and you're dealing with a guy who is constantly meddling and shows you no respect, are you going to turn down an offer from another team? One that will treat you better? Of course not.
This isn't about employees being too sensitive. This is about creating an atmosphere that will attract and retain talent.
What is he a scapegoat for? If the Braves are being investigated for the same stuff as 15 other teams and it's no big deal then there's no need for a scapegoat.
15 other teams might be under investigation for pre-draft deals or other minor infractions, but that doesn't mean the Braves are only being investigated for that. In fact, everything we've heard says they're being investigated for more serious things like bundling.
Also, if it was just a minor infraction of baseball rules then I think it's much more likely that the Braves were not internally pleased with Coppy. The front office situation was toxic and my impression is that's coming from the rank and file. If Hart and JS were aware of this then it's doubtful his performance reviews were that hot.
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