I Know -I Know

[jpx7]

I would much rather give people the tools to improve than toss them a few bucks

They're not mutually exclusive; we should be doing both.

Handouts just foster a hand out mentality.

This is the blanket generalization I dispute.

[yeezus]

Thats just an excuse for some that don't want to devote their lives to bettering themselves. I'm all for helping the mentally ill and disabled people of this country but as a society we over diagnose everything. Everyone has ADD and everyone is depressed. I don't buy it. People just need to figure out how to deal with life. Life was never meant to be easy. As an 8 year old I found that out real quick when my mother died.

So do not believe mental disorders exist?
Again, you sound like the type of person who believes no one is actually depressed, and they can change it easily if they try! That's just a flat-out stupid notion.

[thethe]

No, there is a clear delineation between someone who is a paranoid schizophrenic and someone who is depressed because nothing goes there way. I understand there are those with actual issues but the fact that the pharmaceutical industry has convinced the world that they have an issue doesn't mean that I believe it.

[50PoundHead]

No, there is a clear delineation between someone who is a paranoid schizophrenic and someone who is depressed because nothing goes there way. I understand there are those with actual issues but the fact that the pharmaceutical industry has convinced the world that they have an issue doesn't mean that I believe it.

That's not depression and while there may be some psychiatrists that will prescribe drug therapy to such a person, it would be irresponsible. Not saying it doesn't happen, but the state of mental health care in this country is absolutely deplorable. What happened in Virginia the other day to the state legislator and his son is really inexcusable in a civilized society.

[yeezus]

No, there is a clear delineation between someone who is a paranoid schizophrenic and someone who is depressed because nothing goes there way. I understand there are those with actual issues but the fact that the pharmaceutical industry has convinced the world that they have an issue doesn't mean that I believe it.

Unfortunately, doctors and psychologists - not just the pharma industry - recognize these problems, too.
But yeah, those who are depressed can just snap out of it. Those who were sexually assaulted as a child should just get over it and not be affected by it.
I completely buy in to the power of the mind and how huge a change it can make in things. However, I also realize it's an extremely complicated and tough obstacle for some people who have experienced worse things than I have.
It sucks your mother died so young. That is a tough thing to deal with.
But, add that problem to growing up in poverty, having no one around that really cares, looking at those around you and seeing them on hard drugs, or not giving a ****, and any number of the countless things people experience.
You saying "get over it" is so simple-minded it's mind-blowing. You cannot sit there and tell someone to "get over it and simply work harder" if you have never been through what they've been through or walked in their shoes. You have no idea what it's like for people who have been through far tougher things than you've experienced. Saying "screw you, you messed up" is sad.

[thethe]

That's not depression and while there may be some psychiatrists that will prescribe drug therapy to such a person, it would be irresponsible. Not saying it doesn't happen, but the state of mental health care in this country is absolutely deplorable. What happened in Virginia the other day to the state legislator and his son is really inexcusable in a civilized society.

I agree that is not depression but without having any way of quantifying it I would imagine that there is a subset of the depressed population that falls under this category. That is why its hard for me to make a general statement that becuase someone claims depression I should take it easy on them.

[jpx7]

rather than folks who didn't make the bad decision being forced to pay it for them

See, this sort of self-aggrandizing is what I find ultimately to be at the core of a lot of libertarian and/or don't-help-people ideologies: I made good decisions, so why shouldn't everyone else have? I prospered, so those that didn't deserve the punishment of their failure.

The fact is, as yeezus alludes, we who aren't in bad situations are all lucky to some degree; a combination of factors – genetics, environment; nature and nurture – have allowed us to make more "good" decisions than "bad" ones, and more importantly to recognize which decisions are really beneficial to us, and which are really detrimental. Sure, force of will, determination, et cetera may be at work as well, but those very qualities were informed and cultivated through everything that has ever happened to you or me, and everybody's experiences with this universe are different.

I'm not really trying to paint you, or anyone else in this thread, as an asshole: I just can't really comprehend this seeming comfort with (and, from some sources outside this board, seeming getting off at) the suffering of those who suffer, simply because their suffering conforms to one's sense of life-justice or moral appropriateness, simply because one has personally calculated another's "just deserts," simply because they "had it coming."

I'm not saying the safety-net in this country is perfect, or needs no reform, or that we should in no way incentive assistance, promote personal development, and seek to limit authentic malfeasance where we think we've found it; but I am saying that I really think some of you are too cavalier in assuming you know, or can easily discern, whether someone deserves something or not, what merits what, and how easy or difficult it is to rise above the victim-hood of individual circumstances, even if you yourself in your limited and specific case have done so.

[thethe]

Unfortunately, doctors and psychologists - not just the pharma industry - recognize these problems, too.
But yeah, those who are depressed can just snap out of it. Those who were sexually assaulted as a child should just get over it and not be affected by it.
I completely buy in to the power of the mind and how huge a change it can make in things. However, I also realize it's an extremely complicated and tough obstacle for some people who have experienced worse things than I have.
It sucks your mother died so young. That is a tough thing to deal with.
But, add that problem to growing up in poverty, having no one around that really cares, looking at those around you and seeing them on hard drugs, or not giving a ****, and any number of the countless things people experience.
You saying "get over it" is so simple-minded it's mind-blowing. You cannot sit there and tell someone to "get over it and simply work harder" if you have never been through what they've been through or walked in their shoes. You have no idea what it's like for people who have been through far tougher things than you've experienced. Saying "screw you, you messed up" is sad.

That was just one thing that happened to me in my life. Nobody needs to know or quite frankly cares about other issues that I have had to deal with in my life.

In the end, every person has control of their lives. Some were given a worse deck of cards than others but aside from severe mental & physical disabilities every person can make the correct decisions in their lives to become relatively successful.

[yeezus]

Another thing, those who don't grow up hard can mess up countless times, but not have it screw their life over due to parents that can pay for something, or resources available to them. Many people don't have this luxury. They screw up, and it starts a downward spiral. The dynamics in these situations are very complicated, and simply saying "yeah, but they should get over it and work harder!" is just stupid, and that's it.

[yeezus]

That was just one thing that happened to me in my life. Nobody needs to know or quite frankly cares about other issues that I have had to deal with in my life.

In the end, every person has control of their lives. Some were given a worse deck of cards than others but aside from severe mental & physical disabilities every person can make the correct decisions in their lives to become relatively successful.

I don't disagree with any of that.
You seem to think it's easy just because you were able to do it.
For many, many people, it is extremely difficult. So stop judging people because they didn't do things the way you did or they can't put things together the way you did. It's a ****ty mindset.

[yeezus]

**** YOUR LIFE, I NEEDED THAT $36 FOR GOLF. OH NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

[thethe]

So I'm supposed to feel sympathy for those that fall under this category? How am I supposed to feel?

[thethe]

I don't disagree with any of that.
You seem to think it's easy just because you were able to do it.
For many, many people, it is extremely difficult. So stop judging people because they didn't do things the way you did or they can't put things together the way you did. It's a ****ty mindset.

I never said it was easy. It sure as hell wasn't easy for me.

When did we all of a sudden come to the conclusion that life should be easy?

[jpx7]

So I'm supposed to feel sympathy for those that fall under this category? How am I supposed to feel?

Personally, I'm not saying we should regulate your feelings; that's between you and your sense of rightness. I'm saying we should regulate society such that assistance is there for those who need it and can use it; and we should – societally – be generous and not miserly, because there are so many barriers to adequate and complete understanding of individual situations.

[jpx7]

When did we all of a sudden come to the conclusion that life should be easy?

Society exists, in its most basic state, to make life easier on each other: that is why hominids evolved into political animals. I'm not sure why it's a bad goal, on a societal level, to mitigate the harshness of life for each other as much as possible — and I'd think someone with so many warm feelings might agree.

[thethe]

Personally, I'm not saying we should regulate your feelings; that's between you and your sense of rightness. I'm saying we should regulate society such that assistance is there for those who need it and can use it; and we should – societally – be generous and not miserly, because there are so many barriers to adequate and complete understanding of individual situations.

But the issue that I have is that throwing money at the problem like most other things in life doesn't usually solve it. If there was additional reform that required some form of return to the taxpayers then I could possibly live with it depending on what that plan was. What doesn't work is just throwing money at this issue without any obligation or responsibility for those who are receiving the benefits.

[thethe]

Society exists, in its most basic state, to make life easier on each other: that is why hominids evolved into political animals. I'm not sure why it's a bad goal, on a societal level, to mitigate the harshness of life for each other as much as possible — and I'd think someone with so many warm feelings might agree.

Yes, but what we evolved from what an even more harsh sense of life. The current form of our civilization has produced many different conduits to change your current state of affairs.

[jpx7]

But the issue that I have is that throwing money at the problem like most other things in life doesn't usually solve it. If there was additional reform that required some form of return to the taxpayers then I could possibly live with it depending on what that plan was. What doesn't work is just throwing money at this issue without any obligation or responsibility for those who are receiving the benefits.

And it might be easier to enact such a structure if half the politicians weren't fuming about the need for the utter destruction of the safety-net; that sort of rhetoric prevents any discussion of real reform.

On the other hand: both halves are unlikely to be interested in discussing real reform, since that might make their enslavement to the oligarchy even more transparent.

[jpx7]

The current form of our civilization has produced many different conduits to change your current state of affairs.

Perhaps; but why be satisfied with the current form? Why not explore producing more and better conduits?

[thethe]

And it might be easier to enact such a structure if half the politicians weren't fuming about the need for the utter destruction of the safety-net; that sort of rhetoric prevents any discussion of real reform.

On the other hand: both halves are unlikely to be interested in discussing real reform, since that might make their enslavement to the oligarchy even more transparent.

So true.