Page 2 of 8 FirstFirst 1234 ... LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 157

Thread: Frank Wren's Tenure

  1. #21
    Hessmania Forever
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Posts
    13,994
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    4,887
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    7,678
    Thanked in
    4,941 Posts
    I'm one of the few who was skeptical on the Uggla trade from the get-go, but absolutely thought the extension was ridiculous. He also bid against himself for Melvin Upton, Jr., and went about $2 million per year above that market.

    But those thoughts aside, I always found Wren too impulsive. I think the Chris Johnson contract is case in point. He made some very good trades, but I still think we were headed for a crossroads post-2015 and there was no contingency plan. I think a plausible case can be made that we should have patched things together as best we could have for 2015 and then let all the free agents walks and make a bunch of other trades in hopes of putting a core together early into the new stadium's life, but that doesn't allow us to escape the fact that big changes were in the offing.

    I find it difficult to believe that trading for Rick Ankiel can be viewed as a good move.

  2. The Following User Says Thank You to 50PoundHead For This Useful Post:

    keithlaw (06-17-2015)

  3. #22
    I <3 Ron Paul + gilesfan sturg33's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Posts
    52,574
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    1,018
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    8,095
    Thanked in
    5,757 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by 50PoundHead View Post
    I'm one of the few who was skeptical on the Uggla trade from the get-go, but absolutely thought the extension was ridiculous. He also bid against himself for Melvin Upton, Jr., and went about $2 million per year above that market.

    But those thoughts aside, I always found Wren too impulsive. I think the Chris Johnson contract is case in point. He made some very good trades, but I still think we were headed for a crossroads post-2015 and there was no contingency plan. I think a plausible case can be made that we should have patched things together as best we could have for 2015 and then let all the free agents walks and make a bunch of other trades in hopes of putting a core together early into the new stadium's life, but that doesn't allow us to escape the fact that big changes were in the offing.

    I find it difficult to believe that trading for Rick Ankiel can be viewed as a good move.
    I'll give it to you - you were always consistent in your criticism of Wren's apparent impulsiveness.

  4. #23
    It's OVER 5,000!
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    Posts
    11,322
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    795
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    3,424
    Thanked in
    2,274 Posts
    Wren did a great job of taking minor, nonessential minor league players (many were holdovers from the Roy Clark era) and trading them for excellent major leaguers. It is hard to argue that he wasn't the right GM for that period of time because he did a great job of filling holes on the major league roster (something I felt JS was mediocre at).

    With that said, the drafts were terrible. While not given great positions in the draft, he oversaw a scouting department that consistently drafted low ceiling players that for the most part didn't contribute. According to reports from Shanks and KLaw, he pushed out a lot of talented people that may have contributed to the mediocre draft classes (although ownership receives significant blame for that - let's not forget they are the true villains in this equation). Of all the things Wren is blamed for, this is truly the one area where he deserves all the criticism lobbied his way. You can't sustain success overseeing dozens of workers if you only listen to your cronies (Source: Keith Law).

    The other criticism he frequently receives were his free agent signings/extension. I feel this is a bit overblown. I, along with others albeit not universal, liked the BJ Upton signing. I'm frankly astounded that he became a complete nonentity. I understand you are graded on your results, but the process was sound. The only contract extension I truly hated at the time was Dan Uggla. Wren generally did very well with bargain bin signings and we had consistent excellent bullpens.

    Wren should have locked up Heyward three years ago, but it's hard to find fault with him there when not one of us know whether that was a realistic scenario or not. He deserves credit for extending a sizes left portion of our young players with below market contracts. I have a strong feeling that Hart and Co. are going to be thankful for that moving forward.

    In the end, Wren was fine. He had spectacular misses, but most GM's do. I'm thankful for his good work, but I also understand why he had to go. There is a lot of good reason to think that a lame duck GM wouldn't have been in the position to undertake a massive rebuild that was arguably unavoidable.

  5. The Following User Says Thank You to chop2chip For This Useful Post:

    thethe (06-17-2015)

  6. #24
    Hessmania Forever
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Posts
    13,994
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    4,887
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    7,678
    Thanked in
    4,941 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by sturg33 View Post
    I'll give it to you - you were always consistent in your criticism of Wren's apparent impulsiveness.
    I guess it's always been my observation that in order to be successful--and not just in baseball, but in just about any enterprise--is that you have to have a blueprint or a set of core principles from which you operate and I could never get a read on Wren. Wren made a number of good, even great, moves, but they often seemed to produce a redundancy (signing Kawakami and Lowe and acquiring Vazquez all in one off-season) or simply move things around in a haphazard way. I do think think that Cox probably begged for a couple of moves and the door has to swing both ways when ladling out criticism.

  7. #25
    10 yr, $185 million Extension
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Posts
    4,760
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    4
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    981
    Thanked in
    766 Posts
    You can't have basically all of your big money moves be disasters. KK, Lowe, Uggla, BJ. You just can't.

    Lowe may not be a disaster...but all of those guys we paid we to go away.

    In the meantime he apparently alienated most of the folks that he came into contact with on a semi-regular basis.

    Bad combination.

    I still blame JS some. He did the Texiera deal. He was Wrenn's boss for this. I know you don't want to mettle, but the CJ extension should have been under veto power.

  8. #26
    It's OVER 5,000! striker42's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Posts
    10,597
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    387
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    3,187
    Thanked in
    2,040 Posts
    This is what DOB wrote in his article about the firing of Wren:

    "Beyond contracts, there have been personality clashes between Wren and some other prominent Braves officials over the years, and several valued employees from the baseball operations staff and Braves minor league system have left for other organizations in recent years. Cox, in his last three years as manager, didn’t have the same harmonious working relationship with Wren that Cox had with Schuerholz."

    The organization is far more than what players the GM signs or trades for. Having guys like BJ, Uggla, Lowe, and Kawakami on his resume didn't help Wren but that alone wasn't enough to get him fired. It was much larger than that. I think the biggest trap in trying to determine how to look at Wren is looking too narrowly. If you only look at his signing and trades you see a mixed bag. Some enormous blunders but some pretty deft moves as well. You have to look at the whole organization.

    The loss of guys like Roy Clark, scouts, and player development guys who kept the talent flowing in the minors was troubling. The lack of emphasis on chemistry and leadership in the clubhouse was a problem (that stuff doesn't make your team good but it sure can make your team bad). A lack of minor league talent that couldn't all be blamed on graduating guys to the majors (it affected too many levels for that) was distressing. You can add to this the fact that the two highest paid and highest profile players on the roster weren't just not living up to expectations, they were among the worst players in the league.

    When you look at all of this it looks far less like having unrealistic expectations about a GM and far more that the Braves were seeing something systemically wrong. Whether you agree that there was a systemic problem or not, JS and Co thought there was and Wren was the guy responsible for making sure those problems didn't crop up.

    Personally, I agree with getting rid of him. There were simply too many problems and not enough for Wren to hang his hat on. This team was looking at probably a decade of irrelevance without extreme action. You don't get to that position and the GM not take the blame.

  9. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to striker42 For This Useful Post:

    JohnAdcox (06-17-2015), thethe (06-17-2015), UNCBlue012 (06-17-2015)

  10. #27
    A Chip Off the Old Rock Julio3000's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Posts
    15,038
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    6,273
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    9,790
    Thanked in
    5,155 Posts
    I'm fine with Wren having been fired. I'm annoyed at the lip service paid to "accountability" that didn't actually extend beyond the Wren family and their close cohorts.

    It bears repeating: JS was Wren's boss. He was, if I understand correctly, his immediate superior. The fact that he's largely escaped criticism for Wren's tenure blows my mind. Yes, he deserves credit for his body of work. He's arguably a HOF executive. On the other hand, during the end of his GM tenure he seemed like he was flailing, and unable to adjust to the realities of the stinky economics of baseball . . . and he was a piss-poor senior executive if half of the stories about Wren's tenure were true. He watched the organization rot for years and did nothing about it?

    To me, any story that is about Wren is about John Suspenders, too.

  11. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Julio3000 For This Useful Post:

    CyYoung31 (06-18-2015), JohnAdcox (06-17-2015), jpx7 (06-17-2015), Prikichi (06-17-2015)

  12. #28
    I <3 Ron Paul + gilesfan sturg33's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Posts
    52,574
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    1,018
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    8,095
    Thanked in
    5,757 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Julio3000 View Post
    I'm fine with Wren having been fired. I'm annoyed at the lip service paid to "accountability" that didn't actually extend beyond the Wren family and their close cohorts.

    It bears repeating: JS was Wren's boss. He was, if I understand correctly, his immediate superior. The fact that he's largely escaped criticism for Wren's tenure blows my mind. Yes, he deserves credit for his body of work. He's arguably a HOF executive. On the other hand, during the end of his GM tenure he seemed like he was flailing, and unable to adjust to the realities of the stinky economics of baseball . . . and he was a piss-poor senior executive if half of the stories about Wren's tenure were true. He watched the organization rot for years and did nothing about it?

    To me, any story that is about Wren is about John Suspenders, too.
    Totally agreed. Like I said in the opening - the majority of my defense of Wren is based solely on the unfair criticism levied on him by the current admin, the beat writers, and several posters here.

    But now we have a "powerhouse" front office - led by Mr. Suspenders

  13. The Following User Says Thank You to sturg33 For This Useful Post:

    jpx7 (06-17-2015)

  14. #29
    Co-Owner, BravesCenter
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Posts
    10,516
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    4,345
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    4,305
    Thanked in
    2,446 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by 50PoundHead View Post
    He also bid against himself for Melvin Upton, Jr., and went about $2 million per year above that market..
    Actually, significantly more than that. According to Jon Heyman the second best bid (from Philadelphia) was only $40MM, so basically $7MM per year ($35MM total) above what Philadelphia bid.

    If that figure is indeed accurate, Wren got majorly skunked.

    Of course, had Upton produced (at all) we would all probably be singing a very different tune. At the time, we needed a CF and Upton represented the best possible upgrade available.
    Last edited by Hawk; 06-17-2015 at 04:07 PM.

  15. #30
    Playing the Waiting Game keithlaw's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Posts
    826
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    225
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    585
    Thanked in
    294 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by 50PoundHead View Post
    I'm one of the few who was skeptical on the Uggla trade from the get-go, but absolutely thought the extension was ridiculous. He also bid against himself for Melvin Upton, Jr., and went about $2 million per year above that market.

    But those thoughts aside, I always found Wren too impulsive. I think the Chris Johnson contract is case in point. He made some very good trades, but I still think we were headed for a crossroads post-2015 and there was no contingency plan. I think a plausible case can be made that we should have patched things together as best we could have for 2015 and then let all the free agents walks and make a bunch of other trades in hopes of putting a core together early into the new stadium's life, but that doesn't allow us to escape the fact that big changes were in the offing.

    I find it difficult to believe that trading for Rick Ankiel can be viewed as a good move.
    The grading of those transactions is pretty bad. Signing Durbin, for example, was a questionable "process", but a great outcome (he had a 130 ERA+ over 60 IP for us).

  16. #31
    Very Flirtatious, but Doubts What Love Is. jpx7's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Posts
    11,902
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    47,590
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    6,440
    Thanked in
    3,829 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by sturg33 View Post
    Totally agreed. Like I said in the opening - the majority of my defense of Wren is based solely on the unfair criticism levied on him by the current admin, the beat writers, and several posters here.
    And the majority of this criticism remained conveniently unlevied until the moment Wren was fired—both from the Braves beat coverage (which is consistently terrible) and amongst posters here (aside from a few notable exceptions like [MENTION=54]50PoundHead[/MENTION]).
    "For all his tattooings he was on the whole a clean, comely looking cannibal."

  17. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to jpx7 For This Useful Post:

    CyYoung31 (06-18-2015), Julio3000 (06-17-2015)

  18. #32
    Voted Worst Poster
    2015 (Co-Winner)
    2018 (Unanimous)
    NinersSBChamps's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    New Prague, MN
    Posts
    13,569
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    3,326
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    1,673
    Thanked in
    1,185 Posts
    Wren overall was almost good. More towards a tad better than average. Towards the end he kind of went for broke. I respect that line of thinking because the team was pretty close. He believed in something and went for it. His lineup construction the last couple years was what did him in I think. That all power approach wasn't very successful. The most important thing is that we didn't win a playoff series again. So no playoff success in my opinion doesn't signify "good." Which is why I graded him as near good or better than average.

  19. #33
    A Chip Off the Old Rock Julio3000's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Posts
    15,038
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    6,273
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    9,790
    Thanked in
    5,155 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by jpx7 View Post
    And the majority of this criticism remained conveniently unlevied until the moment Wren was fired—both from the Braves beat coverage (which is consistently terrible) and amongst posters here (aside from a few notable exceptions like [MENTION=54]50PoundHead[/MENTION]).
    . . . and Fitty's criticism (that he tended to just aim the money hose at problems and fly by the seat of his pants) was and is still valid, unlike the rumors that he was history's greatest monster, and possibly also the Zodiac killer.

  20. #34
    Swallowed by Mark Bowman
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Posts
    2,545
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    86
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    2,743
    Thanked in
    1,269 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Julio3000 View Post
    . . . and Fitty's criticism (that he tended to just aim the money hose at problems and fly by the seat of his pants) was and is still valid, unlike the rumors that he was history's greatest monster, and possibly also the Zodiac killer.
    In fact, I think we can close the book on all those unsolved murders in New York City.

  21. The Following User Says Thank You to MadduxFanII For This Useful Post:

    Julio3000 (06-17-2015)

  22. #35
    Playing the Waiting Game keithlaw's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Posts
    826
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    225
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    585
    Thanked in
    294 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by MadduxFanII View Post
    In fact, I think we can close the book on all those unsolved murders in New York City.
    Thats not fair at all. I'm sure some of his murders got pinned on innocent black guys.

  23. The Following User Says Thank You to keithlaw For This Useful Post:

    Julio3000 (06-17-2015)

  24. #36
    It's OVER 5,000!
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Posts
    6,431
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    173
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    1,579
    Thanked in
    1,044 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by NinersSBChamps View Post
    Towards the end he kind of went for broke. I respect that line of thinking

  25. #37
    Shift Leader thethe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Posts
    69,574
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    5,507
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    5,179
    Thanked in
    3,898 Posts
    Wren was a successful GM. In my opinion though the whole organization was a stack of cards and there was an impending disaster after 2015 because of poor drafting and planning.
    Natural Immunity Croc

  26. #38
    Playing the Waiting Game keithlaw's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Posts
    826
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    225
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    585
    Thanked in
    294 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by thethe View Post
    Wren was a successful GM. In my opinion though the whole organization was a stack of cards and there was an impending disaster after 2015 because of poor drafting and planning.
    Yeah, we were losing talent through trades and FA faster than we were replacing it through the draft and IFA market. Plus there was the issue of constantly tying up 25% of our payroll in AAAA garbage players.

  27. The Following User Says Thank You to keithlaw For This Useful Post:

    thethe (06-17-2015)

  28. #39
    Connoisseur of Minors zitothebrave's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    DANGERZONE
    Posts
    24,621
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    1,428
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    3,432
    Thanked in
    2,463 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by smootness View Post
    You bring up some good points. But part of the new strategy is stockpiling picks, which Wren never did. So obviously taking 8 college players in 10 picks is different than taking 7 in 12 picks.

    We did take high-upside guys early this year. Our first 4 picks were high-upside HS picks, and our 5th was a high-upside college pick. They may have been considered reaches by some rankings, but they're still high-upside picks.
    Well the numbers were 7 out of 10 vs 8 out of 13 so basically one more HS kid picked on average. Not a drastic change. The thing I think that happened during Wren's tenure that we're seeing now is with draft slots we're seeing more college kids go early because you're not seeing teams able to go over slot to sign HS kids who may have 1st round talent in the 4th who really want to go to school.
    Stockholm, more densely populated than NYC - sturg

  29. #40
    Connoisseur of Minors zitothebrave's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    DANGERZONE
    Posts
    24,621
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    1,428
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    3,432
    Thanked in
    2,463 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by 50PoundHead View Post
    I'm one of the few who was skeptical on the Uggla trade from the get-go, but absolutely thought the extension was ridiculous. He also bid against himself for Melvin Upton, Jr., and went about $2 million per year above that market.

    But those thoughts aside, I always found Wren too impulsive. I think the Chris Johnson contract is case in point. He made some very good trades, but I still think we were headed for a crossroads post-2015 and there was no contingency plan. I think a plausible case can be made that we should have patched things together as best we could have for 2015 and then let all the free agents walks and make a bunch of other trades in hopes of putting a core together early into the new stadium's life, but that doesn't allow us to escape the fact that big changes were in the offing.

    I find it difficult to believe that trading for Rick Ankiel can be viewed as a good move.
    The Uggla trade I was fine with, it was the immediate extension I was concerned with. I will give Wren credit, he was smart enough to stockpile right handed power before it became the highest premium in baseball. It's why we got such a big return for Gattis. But, Uggla was too risky, he was old and a 2B. 2B age fast (see Chase Utley, maybe the best 2B I've ever seen) ANd I don't think he bid against him self for the Beej. I think he overpaid to get him to sign. And I think the reason he did that was cause of the Lowe fiasco. If anyone forgets we wanted Burnett (I didn't want any of the starting pitchers from that FA, but the FO has money) and he was off the market so we went after Lowe and were forced to pay him 15M more than we wanted to because he preferred the Mets. After that fiasco Wren wanted to rush and get his guy. Of course he was burned becfause the Twins traded both Span and Revere and the CF market was oversaturated and Bourn signed for way less. It's a damned if you do damned if you don't kind of thing. If he waited and BOurn and Beej both signed. THe Twins could ask a fortune for Span. So on so forth. I don't hate him for the BJ signing. I didn't agree with it. I preferred Bourn or Span. But it made sense and wasn't a true massive overpay. 2M per year may be about right but when inflation and what not is factored in that's not really a big deal.

    Chris Johnson extension I don't think was impulsive really. I think it was CJ wanted to stay a Brave and signed a contract that is below market for him. We basically traded our flexibility to cut him on a gamble that he would hit enough to make a ton on him or trade him for value. i'ts not a bad gamble.

    I think we should have made a run for it in 2015. Traded CB and Sims for a pitcher, sign douchebag to backup Gattis, sign Rasmus, Keep Harang and go from there.

    CF - Jason
    RF - Justin
    1B - Freddie
    C - Gattis
    LF - Rasmus (maybe switch him and Justin)
    2B - TLS
    SS - SImmons
    3B - Johnson

    What I like about that lineup is that you have 3 guys at the top who get on base, 2 of them have great power, then you have 2 pure mashers behind them, and then you hit the skids a bit. TLS should be a solid hitter. Simmons is a solid hitter, CJ when he's on is a solid hitter.

    Rotation
    Wood
    Julio (though obviously this would stink this year)
    Harang
    Pitcher from trade
    Perez

    BTW I consider overall the positves we've seen from Perez to be better than the negatives from Julio in that scenario

    So we clearly take a hit in a few areas. Obviously no Shelby hurts and Jace and Maybin have been pleasant surprises. But I do think that removing the scenery change, Jason would be performing better in ATL, Rasmus and Upton would be massive huge king kong upgrades over Mukaki and well Kelly Johnson and the turds we've been running out in LF. Gattis would smash our catcher production. So basically I see gains at LF (massive) RF (huge) and C (big enough) for maybe a slight loss in CF (Jason probably doesn't hit as well as Maybin has but is better in the field) and a big loss at 2B (TLS doesn't have the glove Peterson does) I think that more than overcomes our pitchign loss and that doesn't include the factoring in of keeping Kimbrel and Walden.

    I do think we were a team who could have been in the playoffs with a few moves and ocne you're in the playoffs who knows what could happen. Wren probably would have been around this year too if he didn't make a move for Fredi's job. I think that stepped outside of JS and BObby's plan and for doing that he was ****canned.
    Stockholm, more densely populated than NYC - sturg

Similar Threads

  1. Article breaking down Wren's tenure
    By Enscheff in forum 2023: Celebrating Our 10th Year Here
    Replies: 21
    Last Post: 09-27-2014, 08:24 AM
  2. So You're Frank Wren (Or Whoever's In His Office This Winter)...
    By clvclv in forum 2023: Celebrating Our 10th Year Here
    Replies: 53
    Last Post: 09-17-2014, 07:46 PM
  3. If you were Frank Wren...
    By blueagleace1 in forum 2023: Celebrating Our 10th Year Here
    Replies: 74
    Last Post: 09-09-2014, 06:56 AM
  4. Does Frank Wren now jump into the trade market?
    By PawPawMaxwell in forum 2023: Celebrating Our 10th Year Here
    Replies: 104
    Last Post: 02-06-2014, 04:28 PM
  5. Frank Wren
    By NinersSBChamps in forum 2023: Celebrating Our 10th Year Here
    Replies: 112
    Last Post: 12-18-2013, 08:28 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •