The Crime Dog

[Carp]

I'm sorry, but if you look at his numbers from 1988-2002 and don't think he's a Hall of Famer, I don't know what to tell you. He was remarkably consistent.

Was Bagwell ever implicated?

I would vote for him. But realistically he won't get in.

[ATLBraves247]

We're not talking about who will get in, we're talking about who deserves to get in.

Sooooo we're not talking about the real world? Dude you make it up as you go huh? If you think McGwire and Sosa deserve to get in over McGriff just on stats I agree, but their stats are permantly flawed due to steroid use. So they don't get in or deserve to get in over him.

[weso1]

What evidence is there that Bagwell took 'roids? Besides, there are more than just first basemen that deserve to go in first.

Bagwell is not only a player who is under suspicion of using steroids, but he is under suspicion of being one of the pioneers of the steroid era. Pete Incaviglia and Ken Caminiti... I mean come on. That Astros team was well documented as a team that partook in PED's. Bagwell himself openly admits that "the temptation was there." And he rationalized the idea of taking steroids, because "If it does make you better, why wouldn’t you at least give it a shot to hang on?" He also had a neck the size of Wyoming.

[weso1]

And park factors are still accounted for in stats like WAR, where Helton also trumps him.

Helton's away OPS was essentially the same as McGriff's career OPS. Imo, both deserve to get in. McGriff isn't an elite hall of famer, but he fits right in there with Willie McCovey for example. He's not in the hall of very good. Mark Grace is in the hall of very good. There's a pretty clear differential between Grace and McGriff. You can't just discount his ability to perform consistently for so many years.

[CyYoung31]

Sooooo we're not talking about the real world? Dude you make it up as you go huh? If you think McGwire and Sosa deserve to get in over McGriff just on stats I agree, but their stats are permantly flawed due to steroid use. So they don't get in or deserve to get in over him.

WTF are you talking about? Of course I think they should get in before McGriff. That was the entirety of my point, not whether they actually would. Maybe you should stop inferring stuff that isn't there. I have no idea why you're coming at me.

[Carp]

Helton's away OPS was essentially the same as McGriff's career OPS. Imo, both deserve to get in. McGriff isn't an elite hall of famer, but he fits right in there with Willie McCovey for example. He's not in the hall of very good. Mark Grace is in the hall of very good. There's a pretty clear differential between Grace and McGriff. You can't just discount his ability to perform consistently for so many years.

A lot of players have drastic home/road splits, but again, WAR accounts for park factors.

And I'm not trying to make a point that Helton was immensely better than McGriff. They are close, but Helton had more awards, and had better peak years. He also played for one team his whole career, which shouldn't matter in voting, but the voters love guys like that. I don't think Helton gets in on the 1st couple ballots, but he should be in by that 3rd ballot.

[ATLBraves247]

WTF are you talking about? Of course I think they should get in before McGriff. That was the entirety of my point, not whether they actually would. Maybe you should stop inferring stuff that isn't there. I have no idea why you're coming at me.

Because you aren't making sense, you're talking about guys that cheated getting in over a guy that to my knowledge never even had his name whispered about using steroids. Your argument is for juicers to get in over McGriff that's what I'm not understanding.

[ATLBraves247]

A lot of players have drastic home/road splits, but again, WAR accounts for park factors.

And I'm not trying to make a point that Helton was immensely better than McGriff. They are close, but Helton had more awards, and had better peak years. He also played for one team his whole career, which shouldn't matter in voting, but the voters love guys like that. I don't think Helton gets in on the 1st couple ballots, but he should be in by that 3rd ballot.

The Coors Field factor plays a huge role with Helton, if Helton gets in McGriff should get in imo. McGriff also played in a lot of pitchers parks if were going to look at fields. This has been a good discussion. I don't agree with CY's point of view on cheaters getting in or that they should be benchmarks on who gets in or not. IMO I believe they should be excluded from the whole conversation.

[CyYoung31]

Because you aren't making sense, you're talking about guys that cheated getting in over a guy that to my knowledge never even had his name whispered about using steroids. Your argument is for juicers to get in over McGriff that's what I'm not understanding.

Because I don't care about that? At least during that era.

[Knucksie]

Great history lesson there Knucks. I guess you really do learn something new everyday.

Gives everybody a day off from wailing about Chris Johnson, since he got 3 hits against the Dodgers.

[Carp]

The Coors Field factor plays a huge role with Helton, if Helton gets in McGriff should get in imo. McGriff also played in a lot of pitchers parks if were going to look at fields. This has been a good discussion. I don't agree with CY's point of view on cheaters getting in or that they should be benchmarks on who gets in or not. IMO I believe they should be excluded from the whole conversation.

Again, WAR accounts for park factors. Helton career WAR of 61.2 and McGriff at 52.4. Now 9 WAR isn't a massive difference, but it isn't insignificant either.

[weso1]

Again, WAR accounts for park factors. Helton career WAR of 61.2 and McGriff at 52.4. Now 9 WAR isn't a massive difference, but it isn't insignificant either.

Helton was not far away from Ted Williams type production during his prime. I mean does a player really need to be that good to get in?

I also think it's unfair, and I know you're not making the argument, to say that you don't care if a player used PED's. That's incredibly unfair to a player exactly like McGriff. Who went out and was by all accounts someone who didn't cheat and put up hall of fame numbers anyway. Some of the guys like McGwire, Sosa and in all likelihood Bagwell put up an unrealistic standard that was impossible for a non PED lower echelon Hall of fame player to live up to.

I'm honestly surprised Braves fans aren't willing to put him in there, being that he was a Brave all those years. I mean I think the numbers are indisputable when you look at them. He's a hall of fame player.

[CyYoung31]

Helton was not far away from Ted Williams type production during his prime. I mean does a player really need to be that good to get in?

I also think it's unfair, and I know you're not making the argument, to say that you don't care if a player used PED's. That's incredibly unfair to a player exactly like McGriff. Who went out and was by all accounts someone who didn't cheat and put up hall of fame numbers anyway. Some of the guys like McGwire, Sosa and in all likelihood Bagwell put up an unrealistic standard that was impossible for a non PED lower echelon Hall of fame player to live up to.

I'm honestly surprised Braves fans aren't willing to put him in there, being that he was a Brave all those years. I mean I think the numbers are indisputable when you look at them. He's a hall of fame player.

Please.

[thewupk]

One thing I do find funny in debates like this is players who have PED suspions and whatnot. The character clause is often cited that is listed on the HOF ballots as reasons to not vote for them. However it's rarely mentioned as a reason to vote certain players in. I think McGriff and Dale Muprhy would be candidates for that to help their cause. But that's neither here or there.

Statisically speaking I think McGriff was one good season away from getting into the HOF. The general cutoff when people start looking at bottom rung HOFers is 60 WAR. Fangraphs has the crime dog at 56.9 So one more season or maybe even playing out the 94 and 95 as full seasons gets him there. He also had 493 homers and 2490 hits. 2 milestones that may have pushed him over the edge.

Honestly I see him getting voted in via the veterns committe at some point.


edit: And as far as WAR goes. The PED fuled era that he played in the second half of his career hurts those types of numbers. It hurt everyone who was truly clean which is unfair. To what extent we will never know. PED's wasn't the only reason for the offensive explosion but it certainly was a big factor.

[ATLBraves247]

One thing I do find funny in debates like this is players who have PED suspions and whatnot. The character clause is often cited that is listed on the HOF ballots as reasons to not vote for them. However it's rarely mentioned as a reason to vote certain players in. I think McGriff and Dale Muprhy would be candidates for that to help their cause. But that's neither here or there.

Statisically speaking I think McGriff was one good season away from getting into the HOF. The general cutoff when people start looking at bottom rung HOFers is 60 WAR. Fangraphs has the crime dog at 56.9 So one more season or maybe even playing out the 94 and 95 as full seasons gets him there. He also had 493 homers and 2490 hits. 2 milestones that may have pushed him over the edge.

Honestly I see him getting voted in via the veterns committe at some point.


edit: And as far as WAR goes. The PED fuled era that he played in the second half of his career hurts those types of numbers. It hurt everyone who was truly clean which is unfair. To what extent we will never know. PED's wasn't the only reason for the offensive explosion but it certainly was a big factor.

Yes totally agree, the strike season hurt McGriff. If he played that year there wouldn't be any question about him getting in.

[Knucksie]

Statisically speaking I think McGriff was one good season away from getting into the HOF.

This brings up an interesting point. Does anybody remember if the Crime Dog had tailed off much when it was decided to replace him with the Big Cat?

[thewupk]

This brings up an interesting point. Does anybody remember if the Crime Dog had tailed off much when it was decided to replace him with the Big Cat?

Yeah. His 5 seasons with Atlanta OPS+

165
157
119
120
106

He did have two more really good seasons (OPS+ over 140) But I think it was clear he was in decline and the right move to move on.

[mossy]

McGriff off Hershiser


The Crime debuts in Atlanta. One the most memorable moments in our history, much less that night.

[Knucksie]

The Crime debuts in Atlanta. One the most memorable moments in our history, much less that night.

Yeah, I posted essentially the same thing and got greeted with sarcasm by one of our resident board cynics. While, Crime Dog will come up short for Hall consideration (at least he still receives votes), it's certainly worth our time here to discuss a great Brave.