Megathread: Braves lose Maitan, Bae and 10+ plus International Sanctions.

[sturg33]

I think whoever was pulling the player acquisitions was mostly below average. Whether it was Coppy, Hart, or JS... I think Dave Cameron hit the nail on the head that the team isn't in nearly as good of shape as it should be

[Southcack77]

What is he a scapegoat for? If the Braves are being investigated for the same stuff as 15 other teams and it's no big deal then there's no need for a scapegoat.

15 other teams might be under investigation for pre-draft deals or other minor infractions, but that doesn't mean the Braves are only being investigated for that. In fact, everything we've heard says they're being investigated for more serious things like bundling.

Also, if it was just a minor infraction of baseball rules then I think it's much more likely that the Braves were not internally pleased with Coppy. The front office situation was toxic and my impression is that's coming from the rank and file. If Hart and JS were aware of this then it's doubtful his performance reviews were that hot.

He's saying the Braves wanted to fire Coppy, in part because he was a geek and in part to blame him for the rebuild in order to save the jobs of JS and JH and used this as an excuse.

I don't think their jobs were in danger or that big a concern. I suspect someone had decided that Coppy wasn't right for the job and it could well have been a personality driven call.

Advanced stats vs scouts? I just don't think so. Only as function of internal disorder.

[Southcack77]

I think whoever was pulling the player acquisitions was mostly below average. Whether it was Coppy, Hart, or JS... I think Dave Cameron hit the nail on the head that the team isn't in nearly as good of shape as it should be

I could not tell if Cameron thought they should be further along or if the real problem was they weren't realistic with the fans.

It's hard to picture them with a three year turnaround.

[Managuarantano's Volunteers]

I could not tell if Cameron thought they should be further along or if the real problem was they weren't realistic with the fans.

It's hard to picture them with a three year turnaround.

Even without Kakes, keeping Simmons, and removing the Kemp/Olivera trades, I don't think we would be great competitors right now because of our pitching.

[nsacpi]

Even without Kakes, keeping Simmons, and removing the Kemp/Olivera trades, I don't think we would be great competitors right now because of our pitching.

We would have Wood. Plus Kemp's salary to play with, which gets you a 2-3 win pitcher on the open market. Which maybe also gives you the flexibility to combine the money spent on Colon, Dickey and Garcia into one superior pitcher.

So a rotation of: Teheran, Folty, Wood, pitcher paid with Kemp's salary, pitcher paid with combined salaries of Dickey, Colon and Garcia.

playing what if can drive you crazy

[thethe]

Simmons is really good but I think brave fans will be quite happy with Newcomb.

[nsacpi]

Simmons is really good but I think brave fans will be quite happy with Newcomb.

I would like that one back

[thethe]

I would like that one back

I get that. So far we haven't come to close to getting equal value. I think that can turn quickly though over the life of the controlled players

[striker42]

I get that. So far we haven't come to close to getting equal value. I think that can turn quickly though over the life of the controlled players

Yeah, it's too early to make a call on that trade. Also you have to consider the value brought by Simmons the last couple of seasons would have been wasted here.

[The Chosen One]

I get that. So far we haven't come to close to getting equal value. I think that can turn quickly though over the life of the controlled players

Imagine how many wins Simmons would have given us this year offensively and especially when Dansby was making routine errors.

[thethe]

Imagine how many wins Simmons would have given us this year offensively and especially when Dansby was making routine errors.

I'm very concerned about swanson. That doesn't make me regret the Simmons trade though.

[thethe]

Yeah, it's too early to make a call on that trade. Also you have to consider the value brought by Simmons the last couple of seasons would have been wasted here.

I think Newk will still develope into a 4 win pitcher.

[striker42]

I think Newk will still develope into a 4 win pitcher.

I don't think that's far fetched at all. He certainly didn't embarrass himself when he reached Atlanta.

[Southcack77]

Yeah, it's too early to make a call on that trade. Also you have to consider the value brought by Simmons the last couple of seasons would have been wasted here.

Yeah but think how easy it would be to trade Albies!

[Millwood1Hitter]

JS needs to go

[striker42]

JS needs to go

I think people overemphasize JS's current role. In one of his Tweets today, DOB said fans see JS giving speeches at the stadium and think he has a bigger role than he does. It seems he's pretty much been working on the Battery and the new ST complex. He's 77. He's not calling the shots anymore.

[zitothebrave]

It was the overall philosophy. We drafted low-ceiling college talent or one-tool HS talent at the top of drafts. You're shooting yourself in the foot doing that, we were never going to end up with top talent with that strategy.

But that was really mainly limited to his first few drafts. And mainly that was because of the bad drafting from before and Schuerholz trading away all the top talent left the Braves upper minors pretty barren. If we don't give Wren any credit for th e07 draft, the 08 draft featured some really good prospects, who just didn't pan out. Devall, Stovall, Spruill, Kimbrel as a first 4 picks is pretty solid. Again it didn't work out for 2 od them, as Devall and Stovall flamed out with injuries. Spruill reached the majors and was a part of the Upton trade. ANd of course Kimbrel is a stud. 09 was kinda poopy outside of Minor as only a few others even reached the majors or were part of a trade. 2010 though was quite good, saw Cunningham, Simmons, Gosselin, TErds, Shreve, Drury, and Gattis. HOw many drafts produce that many major league talents much less 2 high quality yields in Simmons and Gattis.

Again, my point is less that Wren was bad at the draft and more that the BRaves sucked for quite some time at the draft. You look at the 06 draft? Bunch of turds and Medlen.

[Millwood1Hitter]

Wren wasn't the problem, JS was.

[Southcack77]

I think Wren's tenure was somewhere in between and not sure it really makes a lot of sense to come up with angels and demons to blame things on.

The Braves had a long run and they continued to try and extend and return to that run without taking a step back to retool. When you lay that out as your bottom line and you don't have the payroll to buy prospects and fill holes, you are eventually going to run into circumstances that run you dry.

And the Braves had devastating injuries to their young pitching and free agency concerns that hit all at the same time. And when they looked at the system they had 0 starting pitching prospects left and only 1 position prospect that could credibly reach the majors.

The numbers did not work and they chose the tear down.

Is that Wren's fault? I'm not sure that it is. It's just something that was going to happen eventually. It happens to everyone -- even the Yankees and Red Sox -- though those teams can spend their way out of it a lot quicker. And buy their way out of bad decisions.

That said, Wren made some doozy bad deals, particularly with contracts to Upton, Uggla, Chris Johnson that looked bad at the time, IMO -- I'm sure that someone will point out the WAR value wasn't out of whack, but those were in my opinion bad deals when they were made.

[thewupk]

I think Wren's tenure was somewhere in between and not sure it really makes a lot of sense to come up with angels and demons to blame things on.

The Braves had a long run and they continued to try and extend and return to that run without taking a step back to retool. When you lay that out as your bottom line and you don't have the payroll to buy prospects and fill holes, you are eventually going to run into circumstances that run you dry.

And the Braves had devastating injuries to their young pitching and free agency concerns that hit all at the same time. And when they looked at the system they had 0 starting pitching prospects left and only 1 position prospect that could credibly reach the majors.

The numbers did not work and they chose the tear down.

Is that Wren's fault? I'm not sure that it is. It's just something that was going to happen eventually. It happens to everyone -- even the Yankees and Red Sox -- though those teams can spend their way out of it a lot quicker. And buy their way out of bad decisions.

That said, Wren made some doozy bad deals, particularly with contracts to Upton, Uggla, Chris Johnson that looked bad at the time, IMO -- I'm sure that someone will point out the WAR value wasn't out of whack, but those were in my opinion bad deals when they were made.

Johnson and Uggla were bad extensions. I would have still signed Melvin to that deal. For most teams signing a 29 year old 3 WAR CF would have shored up CF for the next few years. Not the Braves though.