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    Since a lot of cities and municipalities have passed minimum-wage increases which have been in effect for a while, it seems like we should have some more robust data available, rather than a bunch of anecdotes.

    Also funny in this video is the kid who highlights a group of economically successful countries with no minimum wage. I think he mentions Iceland, Norway, Sweden, and Switzerland.

    So, uh, please throw me into that briar patch. I’m sure John Stossel thinks we should model our economy on Norway’s, right? And nationalized energy sector that pays into a sovereign wealth fund, family leave, a robust social safety net, universal healthcare, etc. I’d certainly trade a minimum wage for that.

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    I know it's a crazy notion but just because a country does one thing right, doesnt mean it does everything right.

    Crazy, I know.

    The data in the video that stood put to me was the entry level job growth completely stopped in Seattle once min wage increased, where the rest of the state continued to grow

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    Ok, but it seems to me the connection that might have been made is that there’s less necessity of a minimum wage in a country with robust safety net, socialized medicine, etc.

    I’m not really sure what that entry level job number means, exactly. Surely the economy in the city/region must be suffering, right? Is there massive unemployment? Large-scale closing of businesses? Such a catastrophic decision must have wrecked the local economy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nsacpi View Post
    Having put this graph up I offer an exceptionally well thought out rebuttal in a piece by Laurence Kotlikoff in the WSJ a few weeks ago titled "Tax Myths of Warrenomics":

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/tax-myt...7R2MUtyjEfsJSI

    Economists Emmanuel Saez and Gabriel Zucman of the University of California, Berkeley are advising Elizabeth Warren’s presidential campaign and drawing generous media attention for their assertion that the U.S. tax system is flat—that the middle class and poor pay as great a share of their income in taxes as the rich. They’re wrong, and three huge mistakes underlie their analysis.

    The biggest mistake is to focus on gross, not net, taxes. They ignore transfer payments, like Social Security, which are disproportionately paid to the poor. In doing so, they mistake language for economics.

    To see the problem, consider a simple thought experiment. Joe, a minimum-wage employee, earns $15,000 a year. The government taxes Joe $1,000 and transfers him $600, so that he pays $400 on net. In another scenario, Joe pays $10,000 in taxes and collects $9,600 in transfer payments. Again, he pays $400 on net. But in the first scenario, Messrs. Saez and Zuchman would report Joe’s gross tax rate as a reasonable 6.7% ($1,000 over $15,000). In the second, they’d call it an onerous 66.7%.

    The flaw in their method is even more obvious when you consider that American tax laws incorporate benefit subsystems, and benefit laws incorporate tax subsystems. The federal personal income tax, for instance, includes the earned-income tax credit, a major transfer program. The Social Security benefit system includes the earnings test, a major tax. If the focus is on gross taxes, should the EITC be excluded and Social Security’s earnings test included? Economics can’t say. What it does say is look past the language and measure net, not gross, taxes.

    Messrs. Saez and Zucman’s second mistake is measuring progressivity on a one-year rather than a remaining-lifetime basis. That ignores the fiscal system’s double taxation: Income earned, taxed and saved this year will be subject to future taxation on interest, dividends and capital gains. This omission disproportionately understates taxes for the rich, who save at a higher rate. The current-year focus also understates benefits paid to the poor, since future benefits are a bigger share of their resources.

    Their third mistake is failing to adjust for age. The old have paid most of their lifetime taxes, which makes them now look like tax cheats, particularly those who saved out of previously highly taxed labor income. With changing demographics, this problem will deeply confuse tax progressivity comparisons over time.

    Economic theory suggests a better way to measure fiscal progressivity: Include each and every federal and state tax and benefit; measure net, not gross, taxes; focus on each age group separately; add together the present value of each future year’s net taxes; and measure a household’s remaining lifetime net tax rate by dividing the present value of its remaining lifetime net taxes by the household’s remaining lifetime resources—its current net wealth plus its human wealth (the present value of its future labor earnings).

    Yes, that’s a mouthful, and making the calculations is even more difficult than describing them. But another UC Berkeley economist, Alan Auerbach, and I have made them. Our findings, based on the Federal Reserve’s 2016 Survey of Consumer Finances, could not differ more from those of Messrs. Saez and Zucman.

    I’ll focus on 40-year-olds, but the results are similar for all age groups. Each dollar of pretax remaining lifetime resources of those in the top 1% of the resource distribution is, on average, taxed on net at a 34.5% rate. For those in the top quintile, the average net tax rate is 28.4%. For those in the bottom quintile, every dollar of pre-tax resources is matched by a 46.6% net subsidy. (The tax rises steadily to 4.2% for the second quintile, 12.6% for the third and 18.5% for the fourth.)

    Thus, far from being flat, the net tax rate facing middle age Americans rises rapidly with their resources—from negative 46.4% for the bottom 20% to positive 34.5% for the top 1%. The average net rates for the current year only (not including future net taxes) for this cohort understate true progressivity. They range from negative 9.8% for the bottom 20% to positive 38.2% for the top 1%.

    America’s progressive fiscal system, as well as the more even distribution of human wealth, makes spending inequality far smaller than wealth inequality. Nonetheless, average spending by top 1% households is miles higher than average spending by those in the bottom fifth. Like Messrs. Saez and Zucman and Ms. Warren, I am appalled by the degree of U.S. inequality and seek to reduce it. But if economists dramatically understate fiscal progressivity, it may encourage reforms that go far overboard.
    Last edited by nsacpi; 11-01-2019 at 08:37 AM.
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    Economy keeps in humming along.

    Nothing more important than jobs and wage growth. All other factors are leveraged when making hiring decisions.

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    "For there is always light, if only we are brave enough to see it. If only we are brave enough to be it." Amanda Gorman

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    Quote Originally Posted by goldfly View Post
    Farmers have been receiving various forms of corporate welfare for a very long time. The ethanol program is just one big boondoggle. To his credit Ted Cruz spoke out against it when campaigning in the Iowa in 2016.
    "I am a victim, I will tell you. I am a victim."

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    Lol

    Hahahahaha

    "For there is always light, if only we are brave enough to see it. If only we are brave enough to be it." Amanda Gorman

    "When Fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross"

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    "For there is always light, if only we are brave enough to see it. If only we are brave enough to be it." Amanda Gorman

    "When Fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross"

  11. #1030
    A Chip Off the Old Rock Julio3000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thethe View Post
    Economy keeps in humming along.

    Nothing more important than jobs and wage growth. All other factors are leveraged when making hiring decisions.
    1.9% GDP growth, no?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Julio3000 View Post
    1.9% GDP growth, no?
    GDP is past performance in the face of a needed trade war with a communist state.

    Jobs are based on budgeting and budgets are done with a forward looking eye.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nsacpi View Post
    Having put this graph up I offer an exceptionally well thought out rebuttal in a piece by Laurence Kotlikoff in the WSJ a few weeks ago titled "Tax Myths of Warrenomics":

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/tax-myt...7R2MUtyjEfsJSI

    Economists Emmanuel Saez and Gabriel Zucman of the University of California, Berkeley are advising Elizabeth Warren’s presidential campaign and drawing generous media attention for their assertion that the U.S. tax system is flat—that the middle class and poor pay as great a share of their income in taxes as the rich. They’re wrong, and three huge mistakes underlie their analysis.

    The biggest mistake is to focus on gross, not net, taxes. They ignore transfer payments, like Social Security, which are disproportionately paid to the poor. In doing so, they mistake language for economics.

    To see the problem, consider a simple thought experiment. Joe, a minimum-wage employee, earns $15,000 a year. The government taxes Joe $1,000 and transfers him $600, so that he pays $400 on net. In another scenario, Joe pays $10,000 in taxes and collects $9,600 in transfer payments. Again, he pays $400 on net. But in the first scenario, Messrs. Saez and Zuchman would report Joe’s gross tax rate as a reasonable 6.7% ($1,000 over $15,000). In the second, they’d call it an onerous 66.7%.

    The flaw in their method is even more obvious when you consider that American tax laws incorporate benefit subsystems, and benefit laws incorporate tax subsystems. The federal personal income tax, for instance, includes the earned-income tax credit, a major transfer program. The Social Security benefit system includes the earnings test, a major tax. If the focus is on gross taxes, should the EITC be excluded and Social Security’s earnings test included? Economics can’t say. What it does say is look past the language and measure net, not gross, taxes.

    Messrs. Saez and Zucman’s second mistake is measuring progressivity on a one-year rather than a remaining-lifetime basis. That ignores the fiscal system’s double taxation: Income earned, taxed and saved this year will be subject to future taxation on interest, dividends and capital gains. This omission disproportionately understates taxes for the rich, who save at a higher rate. The current-year focus also understates benefits paid to the poor, since future benefits are a bigger share of their resources.

    Their third mistake is failing to adjust for age. The old have paid most of their lifetime taxes, which makes them now look like tax cheats, particularly those who saved out of previously highly taxed labor income. With changing demographics, this problem will deeply confuse tax progressivity comparisons over time.

    Economic theory suggests a better way to measure fiscal progressivity: Include each and every federal and state tax and benefit; measure net, not gross, taxes; focus on each age group separately; add together the present value of each future year’s net taxes; and measure a household’s remaining lifetime net tax rate by dividing the present value of its remaining lifetime net taxes by the household’s remaining lifetime resources—its current net wealth plus its human wealth (the present value of its future labor earnings).

    Yes, that’s a mouthful, and making the calculations is even more difficult than describing them. But another UC Berkeley economist, Alan Auerbach, and I have made them. Our findings, based on the Federal Reserve’s 2016 Survey of Consumer Finances, could not differ more from those of Messrs. Saez and Zucman.

    I’ll focus on 40-year-olds, but the results are similar for all age groups. Each dollar of pretax remaining lifetime resources of those in the top 1% of the resource distribution is, on average, taxed on net at a 34.5% rate. For those in the top quintile, the average net tax rate is 28.4%. For those in the bottom quintile, every dollar of pre-tax resources is matched by a 46.6% net subsidy. (The tax rises steadily to 4.2% for the second quintile, 12.6% for the third and 18.5% for the fourth.)

    Thus, far from being flat, the net tax rate facing middle age Americans rises rapidly with their resources—from negative 46.4% for the bottom 20% to positive 34.5% for the top 1%. The average net rates for the current year only (not including future net taxes) for this cohort understate true progressivity. They range from negative 9.8% for the bottom 20% to positive 38.2% for the top 1%.

    America’s progressive fiscal system, as well as the more even distribution of human wealth, makes spending inequality far smaller than wealth inequality. Nonetheless, average spending by top 1% households is miles higher than average spending by those in the bottom fifth. Like Messrs. Saez and Zucman and Ms. Warren, I am appalled by the degree of U.S. inequality and seek to reduce it. But if economists dramatically understate fiscal progressivity, it may encourage reforms that go far overboard.
    That was a good read. One take away is to always distrust any simple representation of the modern American tax system. Even if someone disagrees with the conclusions reached in your post, the idea that simple numbers tell the whole story is laughable.

    I will say that the idea of income inequality does not bother me as much as it does many. In a meritocracy there will be income inequality. I think the goal should be that the government plays the role of a referee, ensuring that the game is fair, not trying to ensure a tie. I don't think we're there as I think there are plenty of cases where some groups are able to bend the system to their favor and exploit others. That's repugnant. I think a fair playing field sees less inequality but there will still be inequality.

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    Quote Originally Posted by striker42 View Post
    That was a good read. One take away is to always distrust any simple representation of the modern American tax system. Even if someone disagrees with the conclusions reached in your post, the idea that simple numbers tell the whole story is laughable.

    I will say that the idea of income inequality does not bother me as much as it does many. In a meritocracy there will be income inequality. I think the goal should be that the government plays the role of a referee, ensuring that the game is fair, not trying to ensure a tie. I don't think we're there as I think there are plenty of cases where some groups are able to bend the system to their favor and exploit others. That's repugnant. I think a fair playing field sees less inequality but there will still be inequality.
    Our political system seems to have fallen into the habit of either inventing problems that don't really exist or greatly exaggerating the ones that do. Student loans would be another example. To the extent there is a problem it is a much more narrow one (having to do with a small subset of schools that verge on the fraudulent preying on naïve students) than is commonly believed. Immigration, including illegal immigration, is another. I think our laws should be enforced, but illegal immigration is a small problem for this country, with quite a few positive aspects that people are reluctant to acknowledge. The trade war with China is another example of inventing or greatly exaggerating a problem. There are real problems out there, but no one talks about them in a realistic way.
    Last edited by nsacpi; 11-01-2019 at 05:07 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by striker42 View Post
    That was a good read. One take away is to always distrust any simple representation of the modern American tax system. Even if someone disagrees with the conclusions reached in your post, the idea that simple numbers tell the whole story is laughable.

    I will say that the idea of income inequality does not bother me as much as it does many. In a meritocracy there will be income inequality. I think the goal should be that the government plays the role of a referee, ensuring that the game is fair, not trying to ensure a tie. I don't think we're there as I think there are plenty of cases where some groups are able to bend the system to their favor and exploit others. That's repugnant. I think a fair playing field sees less inequality but there will still be inequality.
    I don't think anyone here on the left thinks poor people should be tied with the 1%.

    So maybe I'm misreading your tie analogy.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Chosen One View Post
    I don't think anyone here on the left thinks poor people should be tied with the 1%.

    So maybe I'm misreading your tie analogy.
    With the way the wealthy are demonized? Maybe they aren't 'advocating' for it today...

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    I guess nobody wants to comment that reduced taxes actually increases revenue?

    Not surprised.

    Need a courageous Congress/President to finally end our welfare state and the debt burden will disappear FAST.
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    Spending my Sunday afternoon browsing at Barnes and Noble.

    I found a book to recommend:

    The Great Reversal: How America Gave Up On Free Markets

    by Thomas Philippon

    It is an excellent diagnosis of our economic malaise. Should be required reading for presidential candidates. At least the ones who read books.
    "I am a victim, I will tell you. I am a victim."

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    We are in an economic malaise?
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    It’s over."


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    Quote Originally Posted by cajunrevenge View Post
    We are in an economic malaise?
    sorry...america is great again....greatest economy of all time
    "I am a victim, I will tell you. I am a victim."

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