Page 2 of 15 FirstFirst 123412 ... LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 299

Thread: No discussion on the theater shooting?

  1. #21
    Connoisseur of Minors zitothebrave's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    DANGERZONE
    Posts
    24,620
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    1,428
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    3,432
    Thanked in
    2,463 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Krgrecw View Post
    No one knows how the Colorado theatre shooting would had ended up if someone in there had a gun.
    Could had been worse but if someone who was proficient with a gun had one, it probably could had ended better.
    If an armed US Marine/Army, etc was in there you may have a point. Dude was lobbing tear gas into the crown in a dark theater, lots of screaming people around. That's not a quite trigger pull at a range.
    Stockholm, more densely populated than NYC - sturg

  2. #22
    Hessmania Forever
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Posts
    13,994
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    4,887
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    7,678
    Thanked in
    4,941 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by gilesfan View Post
    Hopefully the dude shooting up the place before.
    Yeah, him and about ten other people most likely.

    Again, I have nothing against responsible gun ownership. I think a lot of people on the left break out in hives when guns are brought up and I don't really know why. I think it's actually the aesthetic more than anything else.

    Just a little anecdote. Most everyone here knows I'm a lobbyist working primarily with public schools. Last session, in the wake of the Newtown tragedy, there was a raft of anti-gun bills (all but one of which died) floating around the legislature. I was leaving one of the committees I was covering right before the multitude of gun-control opponents/proponents flooded the room. I was gathering up my stuff when the police chief from a small suburb that I do some work with sat down. I asked him what he thought about the proposal to let principals/teachers carry weapons. He didn't know me from Adam, but he gave me one of the best-reasoned responses to the issue I have heard and it stuck with me. Think of life as being a scale of zero-to-sixty with zero being calm and sixty being danger. Most people are at zero (or close to it) most of the time. Cops are at about 30 when they are on duty and 20 when they are off duty. To expect someone who is not trained (and I mean someone who is simply able to pass a test and carry a permit) to put themselves into a dangerous situation and succeed is an extremely dicey proposition. It would be like going from zero-to-sixty in no time flat. It is difficult enough for cops to go from thirty-to-sixty, but they are trained to detect and react to situations that may turn tense (and sometimes dangerous). To ask someone to go from saying "Hey, the Dark Knight is really cool" to assessing a situation in a dark theater as to where a shooter is and how to put one's self into a position to take down the shooter without recklessly endangering the lives of other movie-goers is a hard sell to me.

    I don't think gun owners are necessarily arrogant. But I believe the notion that "if I--or someone else--had only had my--their--gun, things would have been different," as in the "only way to stop a bad guy with a gun is for a good guy to have a gun" is really an arrogant proposition. It simply suspends reality and as a result is wishful thinking.
    Last edited by 50PoundHead; 01-15-2014 at 09:27 AM.

  3. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to 50PoundHead For This Useful Post:

    Hawk (01-14-2014), Julio3000 (01-15-2014), Metaphysicist (01-15-2014)

  4. #23
    Connoisseur of Minors zitothebrave's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    DANGERZONE
    Posts
    24,620
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    1,428
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    3,432
    Thanked in
    2,463 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Krgrecw View Post
    an innocent victim is a victim who is injured or killed with having nothing to do with the violent scenario. You just said the guy was an asshole and you would had gotten into a fight with him.

    You can't be an innocent victim when you were the aggressor
    He had nothing to do with a scenario where someone had to use deadly force, he's innocent. If he brandished a knife or was beating him within an inch of his life you have a point. Being snark, yelling,a dn throwing popcorn doesn't make him not innocent. Even being a dick and even if we fought I wouldn't use deadly force on him. He wasn't the aggressor, he was a dick, the aggressor was the person who escalated from a verbal altercation with a minor assault to a gun fight. That's the aggressor. Not the dick.
    Stockholm, more densely populated than NYC - sturg

  5. #24
    if my thought dreams could be seen goldfly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Posts
    21,084
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    5,365
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    3,337
    Thanked in
    2,262 Posts
    if it was over someone texting while in a movie

    like i heard originally


    i would most likely let the guy walk if i was on the jury

  6. #25
    Co-Owner, BravesCenter
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Posts
    10,516
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    4,345
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    4,305
    Thanked in
    2,446 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by zitothebrave View Post
    He had nothing to do with a scenario where someone had to use deadly force, he's innocent. If he brandished a knife or was beating him within an inch of his life you have a point. Being snark, yelling,a dn throwing popcorn doesn't make him not innocent. Even being a dick and even if we fought I wouldn't use deadly force on him. He wasn't the aggressor, he was a dick, the aggressor was the person who escalated from a verbal altercation with a minor assault to a gun fight. That's the aggressor. Not the dick.
    No, he was the aggressor because he threw a bag of popcorn at somebody. Like it or not, that's assault. You are entitled to defend yourself at that point. Guy that got shot was a dumb ass, not saying he deserved to die. It's sad that his daughter will grow up without her father because he couldn't keep his manhood in check.

  7. #26
    Connoisseur of Minors zitothebrave's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    DANGERZONE
    Posts
    24,620
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    1,428
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    3,432
    Thanked in
    2,463 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    No, he was the aggressor because he threw a bag of popcorn at somebody. Like it or not, that's assault. You are entitled to defend yourself at that point. Guy that got shot was a dumb ass, not saying he deserved to die. It's sad that his daughter will grow up without her father because he couldn't keep his manhood in check.
    Throwing popcorn is at best simple assault. Most cops would probably not even bother bringing someone in on it. You are not entitled to use deadly force.
    Stockholm, more densely populated than NYC - sturg

  8. #27
    Making Atlanta Great Again!
    #MAGA!

    Promises MADE, Promises KEPT!
    The Chosen One's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    School of Hard Cox
    Posts
    25,337
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    8,593
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    9,752
    Thanked in
    5,746 Posts
    Also, wasn't the Aurora shooter wearing heavy armor as well?

    I remember reading he was wearing some heavy stuff.

    You or I bringing a pistol with a few rounds, probably would've have saved that guy.
    Forever Fredi


  9. #28
    Co-Owner, BravesCenter
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Posts
    10,516
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    4,345
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    4,305
    Thanked in
    2,446 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by zitothebrave View Post
    Throwing popcorn is at best simple assault. Most cops would probably not even bother bringing someone in on it. You are not entitled to use deadly force.
    Throwing popcorn was the trigger event, but the guy was being held back by his wife which seems to demonstrate to me a continued escalation of aggression. Combine that with being in a dark theater and not being able to fully analyze the threat. The shooter's response was certainly reactionary but far from murderous.

    Don't start physical **** with somebody unless you are prepared to reap the consequences, legal or not.

  10. #29
    Fredi Gonzalez Supporter Dalyn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Your mom
    Posts
    14,077
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    6,446
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    5,802
    Thanked in
    3,408 Posts

  11. #30
    Co-Owner, BravesCenter
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Posts
    10,516
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    4,345
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    4,305
    Thanked in
    2,446 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by KeithLockhart View Post
    Also, wasn't the Aurora shooter wearing heavy armor as well?

    I remember reading he was wearing some heavy stuff.

    You or I bringing a pistol with a few rounds, probably would've have saved that guy.
    No, but it could have scared him away or incapacitated him (which would have perhaps prevented him from killing 12 people wholly unimpeded).

  12. #31
    Connoisseur of Minors zitothebrave's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    DANGERZONE
    Posts
    24,620
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    1,428
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    3,432
    Thanked in
    2,463 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    Throwing popcorn was the trigger event, but the guy was being held back by his wife which seems to demonstrate to me a continued escalation of aggression. Combine that with being in a dark theater and not being able to fully analyze the threat. The shooter's response was certainly reactionary but far from murderous.

    Don't start physical **** with somebody unless you are prepared to reap the consequences, legal or not.
    No him texting was the trigger event. From CNN

    "Charles Cummings and his adult son were two seats away. Cummings said that when Reeves returned to the theater, there was no manager with him.
    "He came back very irritated," Cummings recalled."

    And then

    "Voices were raised. Oulson threw a bag of popcorn at Reeves, police said. Then, the former police officer took out a .380 semi-automatic handgun and shot Oulson."

    And

    "Voices were raised. Oulson threw a bag of popcorn at Reeves, police said. Then, the former police officer took out a .380 semi-automatic handgun and shot Oulson."

    I dunno about you man, but I don't consider throwing popcorn to starting "physical ****" that's like saying someoen poured a beer on their head so it's cool to shoot them.

    I have not read a report that he was being held back by his wife, but who knows. As far as the setting, you're right, but it's not an excuse for deadly force. Unless he was able to see a brandished weapon, there's no reason for deadly force.

    Deadly force is the key, using deadly force as any cop would tell you is a last resort. For this guy it was his first resort, not a good thing.
    Stockholm, more densely populated than NYC - sturg

  13. #32
    Connoisseur of Minors zitothebrave's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    DANGERZONE
    Posts
    24,620
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    1,428
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    3,432
    Thanked in
    2,463 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    No, but it could have scared him away or incapacitated him (which would have perhaps prevented him from killing 12 people wholly unimpeded).
    Or he could have entered a state of panic and fired even more rounds into the audience and killed more people. You're again just aimlessly speculating. No one provoked him maybe that kept his kill count down. No one knows what would happen, we do know that someone entered a theater armed and killed someone that wouldn't have happened if he didn't bring that pistol.
    Stockholm, more densely populated than NYC - sturg

  14. #33
    Fredi Gonzalez Supporter Dalyn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Your mom
    Posts
    14,077
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    6,446
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    5,802
    Thanked in
    3,408 Posts
    Good thing it jammed. I doubt he would've stopped firing. At the very least, he would've shot the wife.

  15. #34
    Connoisseur of Minors zitothebrave's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    DANGERZONE
    Posts
    24,620
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    1,428
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    3,432
    Thanked in
    2,463 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Dalyn View Post
    Good thing it jammed. I doubt he would've stopped firing. At the very least, he would've shot the wife.
    That's almost as speculative as someone armed could have saved lives in Aurora. Speculation when it comes to events like this brings nothing to the table.
    Stockholm, more densely populated than NYC - sturg

  16. #35
    Fredi Gonzalez Supporter Dalyn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Your mom
    Posts
    14,077
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    6,446
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    5,802
    Thanked in
    3,408 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by zitothebrave View Post
    That's almost as speculative as someone armed could have saved lives in Aurora. Speculation when it comes to events like this brings nothing to the table.
    So is saying he wouldn't have killed anyone if he didn't have the pistol. So is saying cops wouldn't bring him in for throwing popcorn. etc etc Lots of speculation going on. That's part of any discussion like this.

  17. #36
    Co-Owner, BravesCenter
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Posts
    10,516
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    4,345
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    4,305
    Thanked in
    2,446 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by zitothebrave View Post
    No him texting was the trigger event.

    I dunno about you man, but I don't consider throwing popcorn to starting "physical ****" that's like saying someoen poured a beer on their head so it's cool to shoot them.

    I have not read a report that he was being held back by his wife, but who knows. As far as the setting, you're right, but it's not an excuse for deadly force. Unless he was able to see a brandished weapon, there's no reason for deadly force.

    Deadly force is the key, using deadly force as any cop would tell you is a last resort. For this guy it was his first resort, not a good thing.
    There are a couple of elements that I would hone in on if I were a member of the defense:

    - The shooter was 71-years old (the victim 30 years his junior). The trauma of having a bucket of popcorn thrown at a man that age is exponentially greater. It could have damaged his eye, or caused him to go into cardiac arrest. As the theater was dark he probably did not realize immediately that it was popcorn that hit him. He could have thought it was any number of things.

    - The shooter was a trained SWAT police officer -- clearly he understands the virtues of deadly force -- so an argument could easily be sustained that he did view himself as being in danger of grievous bodily harm, especially given the inherent flimsiness of Florida's self-defense laws.

    - The article says that the victim's wife suffered a gunshot wound to the hand because she was trying to calm her husband down (by reaching her hand across his chest, presumably to hold him back.) Again, we don't see any violence from the shooter until he pulls the trigger, but we have two fairly straightforward instances of outward aggression on the part of the victim before that moment.

    As for the beer thing, that's really my entire point. You pour a beer over somebody's head when you are in an argument, what do you expect to happen? You've opened yourself up to any number of things based on the insecurity of the person you assaulted. Nevertheless, you instigated -- and in the state of nature, especially Hobbes', just about anything could happen. Rule of thumb: don't be an unrepentant asshat, or you just might wind up getting shot and killed by a guy who will, in all likelihood, be acquitted (and considered a hero by some).
    Last edited by Hawk; 01-14-2014 at 08:38 PM.

  18. #37
    Co-Owner, BravesCenter
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Posts
    10,516
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    4,345
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    4,305
    Thanked in
    2,446 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by zitothebrave View Post
    Or he could have entered a state of panic and fired even more rounds into the audience and killed more people. You're again just aimlessly speculating. No one provoked him maybe that kept his kill count down. No one knows what would happen, we do know that someone entered a theater armed and killed someone that wouldn't have happened if he didn't bring that pistol.
    It was not just a pistol, though. It was a host of weapons; smoke grenades, explosives, and a full compliment of tactical gear. His apartment was full of homemade grenades and gasoline. This guy wanted to kill and he was going to do it by any means necessary.

    It may be speculation, but it's earnest and grounded in reality. Guns are just as much deterrents as they are threats, and unless all the guns are gone (an improbable pipe dream), you always want to have balance.
    Last edited by Hawk; 01-14-2014 at 08:30 PM.

  19. #38
    Very Flirtatious, but Doubts What Love Is. jpx7's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Posts
    11,902
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    47,590
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    6,440
    Thanked in
    3,829 Posts
    The mere fact that you invoked that asshat Hobbes virtually invalidates your position as far as I'm concerned. The "state of Nature" is such a laughable fiction--that you employ it for formulating "rules of thumb," and as anything beyond a fun little discursive hypothetical, is pretty rich.
    Last edited by jpx7; 01-14-2014 at 08:56 PM.

  20. #39
    Connoisseur of Minors zitothebrave's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    DANGERZONE
    Posts
    24,620
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    1,428
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    3,432
    Thanked in
    2,463 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    It was not just a pistol, though. It was a host of weapons; smoke grenades, explosives, and a full compliment of tactical gear. His apartment was full of homemade grenades and gasoline. This guy wanted to kill and he was going to do it by any means necessary.

    It may be speculation, but it's earnest and grounded in reality. Guns are just as much deterrents as they are threats, and unless all the guns are gone (an improbable pipe dream), you always want to have balance.
    Sorry should have made it clear, the someone in my example is the topic of the thread, not the aurora shooter.

    I'm not for banning guns, but I am for gun reform, mainly my common opinion is that someone has to go through a police type of training to own one and the crimes for using/possessing an unregistered weapon should be stronger. If you're not mentally fit to own a weapon, you shouldn't.
    Stockholm, more densely populated than NYC - sturg

  21. #40
    Very Flirtatious, but Doubts What Love Is. jpx7's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Posts
    11,902
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    47,590
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    6,440
    Thanked in
    3,829 Posts
    Moreover: whether the legal process convicts or acquits this shooter, any observer who hails him a hero is the worst kind of fool.

  22. The Following User Says Thank You to jpx7 For This Useful Post:

    Dalyn (01-14-2014)

Similar Threads

  1. UNCC shooting: 2 dead, 4 wounded in shooting at Charlotte campus
    By Acuña’s Bat Flip in forum LOCKER ROOM TALK
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 05-02-2019, 01:35 PM
  2. ROY Discussion
    By Acuña’s Bat Flip in forum 2023: Celebrating Our 10th Year Here
    Replies: 60
    Last Post: 09-17-2018, 06:56 PM
  3. Another Theater Shooting
    By zitothebrave in forum LOCKER ROOM TALK
    Replies: 14
    Last Post: 07-24-2015, 09:26 AM
  4. MLB Awards Discussion
    By zitothebrave in forum 2023: Celebrating Our 10th Year Here
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 10-05-2014, 11:43 AM
  5. The Discussion That Should Be Going On
    By 57Brave in forum LOCKER ROOM TALK
    Replies: 88
    Last Post: 07-26-2013, 03:12 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •