Frank Wren

[NinersSBChamps]

Who would trade for BJ? Uggla you may find a taker but who would trade for BJ? Thats not even a remotely fair criticism.

How many suitors did BJ have last season before he bent Frank Wren over and had his way with him?

[NinersSBChamps]

That's not exactly how events played out. Wren was trying to be creative. The conventional wisdom, at the time, was that the Braves were pursuing a RH power-hitting OF. None were available to that specification. So, he tried to address the issue at 2B. Maybe he did have some particular fascination with Uggla, but that trade was not set in stone. Fredi had just been hired when they were consummating the deal. Fredi was asked what he thought of the trade, and his response was "who else are you giving up?"

Fredi and Frank are two peas in a pod.

[emk418]

The second Tex trade sucked, but no one thought Kotchman would be that bad. The year before he had a very solid season. Sure it would have been nice to have a crack at Trout but no guarantee he would have been there (Angels had back to back picks they coudl have still taken Trout just one pick higher)

I still don't see why the Tex trade gets ripped apart. Yes we traded a bunch of highly regarded PROSPECTS but who exactly are we really missing?

Feliz - Yea he would be a great arm for the pen but would never be our closer.
Andrus - He's a light hitting SS that plays strong defense. No question I would MUCH rather have Simmons.
Salty - average catcher at best. Easily replaceable.
Harrison - good looking lefty that's had success but injury prone. Not a front line starter.
Beau Jones - is he even still playing?

The only player we traded that would have a big role on this team is Feliz and as set up man.

Bottom line is that on the surface trading highly regarded prospects stings. But chances are they won't ever reach the expectations we put on them. I'm not saying to gut our system but I can't stand teams hoarding prospects or always referencing the Tex trade as the reason we shouldn't make a move. There are always exceptions when it comes to making prospect untouchable but I will never blame a GM for going for it.

[zitothebrave]

What? How does the GM not get blame for trading players that stink? Or signing ones, for that matter. I don't care what the players track record was, if they suck for you...then you failed. It's not like Uggly, McLouth, BJ, etc were all sure-fire moves with no faults.

Um, McLouth was pretty damn solid before coming here. He had as a fulltime starter a 117 wRC+. He walked at a decent rate, didn't K too much (similar levels to Freddie and Jason this year) he had really good pop .214 iso. Only question with Nate was his defense. Uggla and Bossman had flaws but long term success.

[Knucksie]

Fredi and Frank are two peas in a pod.

Yes, and there's no doubt that you knew, at the time, exactly how events would unfold. Sorry your calls weren't taken or returned to warn them.

[The Chosen One]

What? How does the GM not get blame for trading players that stink? Or signing ones, for that matter. I don't care what the players track record was, if they suck for you...then you failed. It's not like Uggly, McLouth, BJ, etc were all sure-fire moves with no faults.

Because not all GM's have access to the same Crystal Balls that you do.

Ken Griffey Jr. showed no signs of slowing down for Seattle, was as sure of a thing as you could get, he goes to Cincinnati and has terrible injury years and you want to blame the Cinncy GM for that?

Uggla has had some of the most ridiculous streaks here good and bad, and I don't think any of us anticipated it.

Don't think anybody would've predicted BJ Upton would have one of the worst statistical/historic seasons in the history of baseball. I'm sure Wren is thrilled he got 2 weeks worth of production for 1 years worth of salary from BJ.

[nsacpi]

I still don't see why the Tex trade gets ripped apart. Yes we traded a bunch of highly regarded PROSPECTS but who exactly are we really missing?

Feliz - Yea he would be a great arm for the pen but would never be our closer.
Andrus - He's a light hitting SS that plays strong defense. No question I would MUCH rather have Simmons.
Salty - average catcher at best. Easily replaceable.
Harrison - good looking lefty that's had success but injury prone. Not a front line starter.
Beau Jones - is he even still playing?

The only player we traded that would have a big role on this team is Feliz and as set up man.

Bottom line is that on the surface trading highly regarded prospects stings. But chances are they won't ever reach the expectations we put on them. I'm not saying to gut our system but I can't stand teams hoarding prospects or always referencing the Tex trade as the reason we shouldn't make a move. There are always exceptions when it comes to making prospect untouchable but I will never blame a GM for going for it.

I got another one for you. Wainwright for JD Drew.

[BRule]

Um, McLouth was pretty damn solid before coming here. He had as a fulltime starter a 117 wRC+. He walked at a decent rate, didn't K too much (similar levels to Freddie and Jason this year) he had really good pop .214 iso. Only question with Nate was his defense. Uggla and Bossman had flaws but long term success.

BJ had 1 good year, other than that, he's been average. His WAR gets boosted because of his D and he's a CFer.

Uggla was/is a butcher and on the wrong side of 30

McLouth was a 1 WAR player before his huge year

Point is, not saying you SHOULD have saw it coming BUT you shouldn't be shocked that it happened. McLouth was a 1 hit wonder with crappy D, Uggla was getting old and a 1 trick pony and BJ flat out sucks, IMO.

Not the guys I would hand out huge deals to, or trade away top prospects for.

[Knucksie]

Saltalamacchia was considered the centerpiece of the Texeira deal. The org probably liked Feliz, but he was long-term. In A ball at the time of the trade, IIRC. Andrus was blocked. Simmons may not have been on the radar screen yet. SS was Escobar's to lose. Harrison was probably seen as more of throw-in, but good for Texas that he's become a valuable piece for them.

[NinersSBChamps]

BRule and I could run the Braves better than Wren has in his tenure.

[Knucksie]

Two of the most obnoxious and immature members of the forum: GM and Special Assistant.

[TURBO]

BRule and I could run the Braves better than Wren has in his tenure.

Wrong. You would have given up on the team after the first couple losses.

[zitothebrave]

McLouth was a 1.4 fWAR player with 386 PA. If he had 600 PA he would have liekly been around 2.1 or so. And he posted a 110 wRC+ which is very solid. Again his issue was defense. You're making it seem like Wren should have known he would have gone from a 110-120 wRC+ player to a 70 or 90.

BJ had many good years. from 2007-2012 his wRC+ were each year 137 116 85 107 113 108 each of those seasons the average wRC+ for CF in all of baseball were 97 97 97 100 101 101

Meaning he was above average to well above average for all of the years but 2009. So duh playing CF played a role. Someone who hits above league average and plays a position where the typical hitter is below league average, then duh he's gonna get a WAR boost cause of D and playing CF. What dumb logic.

Uggla being a butcher has nothing to do with his offensive production.

Basically what your gripe is Wren making 2 moves for offensive first players. Then you're griping about him taking a solid defensive and offensive player. It's backwards.

[The Chosen One]

Niners cool it.

We're here to have substantive discussion, not this impulsive emotional biased stuff your'e throwing out there.

Everyone chill... I don't feel like moderating today or ever. Plus we just signed the missing piece to our World Series Puzzle in Gavin Floyd. If we're going to debate then do what Zito is debating and throw the numbers out. Don't get personal and don't start this childish stuff.

[NinersSBChamps]

Wrong. You would have given up on the team after the first couple losses.

That would depend on how many wins we had before those losses.

[BRule]

McLouth was a 1.4 fWAR player with 386 PA. If he had 600 PA he would have liekly been around 2.1 or so. And he posted a 110 wRC+ which is very solid. Again his issue was defense. You're making it seem like Wren should have known he would have gone from a 110-120 wRC+ player to a 70 or 90.

BJ had many good years. from 2007-2012 his wRC+ were each year 137 116 85 107 113 108 each of those seasons the average wRC+ for CF in all of baseball were 97 97 97 100 101 101

Meaning he was above average to well above average for all of the years but 2009. So duh playing CF played a role. Someone who hits above league average and plays a position where the typical hitter is below league average, then duh he's gonna get a WAR boost cause of D and playing CF. What dumb logic.

Uggla being a butcher has nothing to do with his offensive production.

Basically what your gripe is Wren making 2 moves for offensive first players. Then you're griping about him taking a solid defensive and offensive player. It's backwards.

I've NEVER said he should have seen it coming, if you read what I posted, you would know that. I said, you don't give big money deals to those type of players...I should add to that...if you're a team like the Braves with a limited budget. If you're the Yankees? Sure give BJ and Uggla 140 mil and trade 3 chips for McLouth...we aren't the kind of team that can miss on big money contracts, especially not repeatedly.

I mean come on, you're seriously telling me that if you were the Braves GM with our limited FA money, you would've given Uggla and BJ 150 mil? Really?

[Julio3000]

[The Chosen One]

I've NEVER said he should have seen it coming, if you read what I posted, you would know that. I said, you don't give big money deals to those type of players...I should add to that...if you're a team like the Braves with a limited budget. If you're the Yankees? Sure give BJ and Uggla 140 mil and trade 3 chips for McLouth...we aren't the kind of team that can miss on big money contracts, especially not repeatedly.

I mean come on, you're seriously telling me that if you were the Braves GM with our limited FA money, you would've given Uggla and BJ 150 mil? Really?

150 million for two players is logical, 150 million for one player is something out of the question for us.

You have to look at the scenarios here at their times.

When we gave Uggla that money, he was still a top 3 hitting 2nd Baseman + a RH bat. We were lacking in 2B AND lacking a power homerun cleanup type guy which he was both in Florida.

When we gave BJ that money, we had a hole for centerfield and BJ Upton was averaging 20+ homeruns the last 2 seasons in Tampa on an UPWARD slope. There was nothing to suggest he'd go from 23-28 to 9.

Also two things of note: BJ plays centerfield which is a premium defensive position. With Bourn being 2 years older than BJ and asking for roughly the same money in the same ballpark (it was Bourn's first real free agent contract and with him being 30 possibly his last chance at big bucks) there was no reason to give Bourn that money especially when we've all concluded that with no power his speed and defense would decline in the last few years of a long term deal. At least with BJ we assume he could still crack 12-15 homeruns in the last few years of any deal we give him.

If we gave Bourn the same contract as BJ or Choo, and either one struggled their first year we'd hear the same bullocks of why did Frank Wren throw this money at player _________.

What are the chances Bourn even gets close to 9 homeruns again in a season? Way less likely than BJ hitting 15 again.

I think you're kind of being a bit ridiculous against Wren with the Uggla and BJ deals. I don't think anyone expected they'd play THIS poorly. Yes there was regression predicted, but nowhere near the sorts of suckitude that these two produced the last season. I think in BJ's case we're all hoping last year was an aberration and that in Uggla's case who the hell knows.

[BRule]

150 million for two players is logical, 150 million for one player is something out of the question for us.

You have to look at the scenarios here at their times.

When we gave Uggla that money, he was still a top 3 hitting 2nd Baseman + a RH bat. We were lacking in 2B AND lacking a power homerun cleanup type guy which he was both in Florida.

When we gave BJ that money, we had a hole for centerfield and BJ Upton was averaging 20+ homeruns the last 2 seasons in Tampa on an UPWARD slope. There was nothing to suggest he'd go from 23-28 to 9.

Also two things of note: BJ plays centerfield which is a premium defensive position. With Bourn being 2 years older than BJ and asking for roughly the same money in the same ballpark (it was Bourn's first real free agent contract and with him being 30 possibly his last chance at big bucks) there was no reason to give Bourn that money especially when we've all concluded that with no power his speed and defense would decline in the last few years of a long term deal. At least with BJ we assume he could still crack 12-15 homeruns in the last few years of any deal we give him.

If we gave Bourn the same contract as BJ or Choo, and either one struggled their first year we'd hear the same bullocks of why did Frank Wren throw this money at player _________.

What are the chances Bourn even gets close to 9 homeruns again in a season? Way less likely than BJ hitting 15 again.

I think you're kind of being a bit ridiculous against Wren with the Uggla and BJ deals. I don't think anyone expected they'd play THIS poorly. Yes there was regression predicted, but nowhere near the sorts of suckitude that these two produced the last season. I think in BJ's case we're all hoping last year was an aberration and that in Uggla's case who the hell knows.

Choo >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bourn/BJ

BJ had an OPS over 750, twice in his career, once over 785. He's a 250 hitter with a 738 OPS, does he play a premmy position, sure....but you can find a 740 OPS guy with above average D for under 15 mil per.

[The Chosen One]

Choo >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bourn/BJ

BJ had an OPS over 750, twice in his career, once over 785. He's a 250 hitter with a 738 OPS, does he play a premmy position, sure....but you can find a 740 OPS guy with above average D for under 15 mil per.

I probably would've wanted Choo, but the question is with BJ being 2 years younger what would you have paid Choo? And what would realistically have been the market for Choo. Also consider we are already a left handed heavy lineup at the time (McCann-Heyward-Freeman occupied 3 of the first 4 spots in the lineup, if Choo came on board that's the first 4 slots, pre-Prado trade.).