Frank Wren

[Tapate50]

Two of the most obnoxious and immature members of the forum: GM and Special Assistant.

I think they would both be labeled with the "special" title.

[BRule]

I probably would've wanted Choo, but the question is with BJ being 2 years younger what would you have paid Choo? And what would realistically have been the market for Choo. Also consider we are already a left handed heavy lineup at the time (McCann-Heyward-Freeman occupied 3 of the first 4 spots in the lineup, if Choo came on board that's the first 4 slots, pre-Prado trade.).

Doesn't even have to be Choo, I just don't get why we gave BJ what we gave him. Who else was giving him that? Uggla, fine, whatever...The BJ one is going to kill us, if he doesn't turn it around.

[yeezus]

Doesn't even have to be Choo, I just don't get why we gave BJ what we gave him. Who else was giving him that? Uggla, fine, whatever...The BJ one is going to kill us, if he doesn't turn it around.

I'm sure he could have secured a 12 mil/yr deal easily. 15 was a little much for me.
If he can manage to hit the way he did in TB, we will barely complain about this contract. The length/money was exacerbated by his dreadful season. IF he can get back to where he was, our offense is significantly better.

[NinersSBChamps]

Doesn't even have to be Choo, I just don't get why we gave BJ what we gave him. Who else was giving him that? Uggla, fine, whatever...The BJ one is going to kill us, if he doesn't turn it around.

I asked the same thing a couple days ago. How many teams were actively pursuing BJ Upton before the Braves gave him whatever he wanted?

[clvclv]

I still don't see why the Tex trade gets ripped apart. Yes we traded a bunch of highly regarded PROSPECTS but who exactly are we really missing?

Feliz - Yea he would be a great arm for the pen but would never be our closer.
Andrus - He's a light hitting SS that plays strong defense. No question I would MUCH rather have Simmons.
Salty - average catcher at best. Easily replaceable.
Harrison - good looking lefty that's had success but injury prone. Not a front line starter.
Beau Jones - is he even still playing?

The only player we traded that would have a big role on this team is Feliz and as set up man.

Bottom line is that on the surface trading highly regarded prospects stings. But chances are they won't ever reach the expectations we put on them. I'm not saying to gut our system but I can't stand teams hoarding prospects or always referencing the Tex trade as the reason we shouldn't make a move. There are always exceptions when it comes to making prospect untouchable but I will never blame a GM for going for it.

[nsacpi]

Adam Wainwright

[clvclv]

Adam Wainwright

The Wainright deal has been beaten to death unfortunately. Would I like to have been able to keep him? Of course. Would keeping him have extended the Division Championship streak and gotten us deeper into the playoffs at the time of the trade? Absolutely not. Drew had an MVP-caliber season, carried the team in Chipper's absence, and got the team to the playoffs.

I find it rather comical that people scream about wanting Wren to go make a move for a big-time player that can be a difference maker without giving up something of serious value. (Not you personally, but the general consensus around here.)

The only thing I might do differently in either the Drew or Tex trades (and I don't have any knowledge that JS or Wren didn't) is that I would have made it perfectly clear to the bean counters that I would need the authority to bump payroll to retain the players I was trading for. They were the types of players that can win you Championships. If the Liberty Media hullabaloos would agree to a bump in payroll to extend or re-sign David Price, I'd ride with the guys in the moving trucks and help Wood, Sims, Bethancourt, and Peraza pack tomorrow.

If Wren doesn't have that authority, he's not going to have the payroll flexibility to have the Uptons, Heyward, Freeman, Simmons, Kimbrel, Minor, Medlen, and Beachy IF AND WHEN Teheran or Sims develops into an "Ace".

[BRule]

I asked the same thing a couple days ago. How many teams were actively pursuing BJ Upton before the Braves gave him whatever he wanted?

Phillies and Nats were the only teams I remember being "serious" but the Phils said they weren't paying and the Nats OF was already full, so they never really made sense. It would appears the Braves got played by BJ's agent using the Phils and Nats.

[The Chosen One]

Perhaps paying BJ a little extra was down payment for when Justin potentially hits the free agent market.

[Knucksie]

The Wainright deal has been beaten to death unfortunately. Would I like to have been able to keep him? Of course. Would keeping him have extended the Division Championship streak and gotten us deeper into the playoffs at the time of the trade? Absolutely not. Drew had an MVP-caliber season, carried the team in Chipper's absence, and got the team to the playoffs.

I find it rather comical that people scream about wanting Wren to go make a move for a big-time player that can be a difference maker without giving up something of serious value. (Not you personally, but the general consensus around here.)

The only thing I might do differently in either the Drew or Tex trades (and I don't have any knowledge that JS or Wren didn't) is that I would have made it perfectly clear to the bean counters that I would need the authority to bump payroll to retain the players I was trading for. They were the types of players that can win you Championships. If the Liberty Media hullabaloos would agree to a bump in payroll to extend or re-sign David Price, I'd ride with the guys in the moving trucks and help Wood, Sims, Bethancourt, and Peraza pack tomorrow.

If Wren doesn't have that authority, he's not going to have the payroll flexibility to have the Uptons, Heyward, Freeman, Simmons, Kimbrel, Minor, Medlen, and Beachy IF AND WHEN Teheran or Sims develops into an "Ace".

JS admitted in his book, which should be required reading for all serious Braves fans, that he knew Drew wouldn't re-sign when the trade was completed.

Perhaps paying BJ a little extra was down payment for when Justin potentially hits the free agent market.

Everywhere that irate Braves fans post in cyberspace, the consensus is that this one season of BJ signals The End of Civilization. If it was more than a single year, and there was some kind of trend, then there might be some justification for the alarms. He and the hitting coaches are working to get things situated over the winter. The other half of the equation is that his presence in the lineup made Atlanta a much more desireable destination for Justin.

The downside of fantasy league banter (is there an upside?!) spilling over into real life talk is that they freak out at the first sign of trouble and their natural inclination is "trade him" without any consideration to wider implications.

[clvclv]

JS admitted in his book, which should be required reading for all serious Braves fans, that he knew Drew wouldn't re-sign when the trade was completed.




Everywhere that irate Braves fans post in cyberspace, the consensus is that this one season of BJ signals The End of Civilization. If it was more than a single year, and there was some kind of trend, then there might be some justification for the alarms. He and the hitting coaches are working to get things situated over the winter. The other half of the equation is that his presence in the lineup made Atlanta a much more desireable destination for Justin.

The downside of fantasy league banter (is there an upside?!) spilling over into real life talk is that they freak out at the first sign of trouble and their natural inclination is "trade him" without any consideration to wider implications.

Understood, but my point remains the same. JS was trying to keep the streak alive, and paid a high price to obtain a player that they thought could do that (and in hindsight did so almost single handedly). As long as he had assurances from the money men that he would be afforded the opportunity to either re-sign Drew or spend on a replacement in the event he couldn't, I still have no problem with the trade - it (like the Teixeira deal) was made to address a specific need that immediately strengthened the team's postseason outlook.

While the circumstances were somewhat different, the deals were both made for the same reason - they were "win now" moves that didn't cripple the organization for years to come.

[nsacpi]

As long as he had assurances from the money men that he would be afforded the opportunity to either re-sign Drew or spend on a replacement in the event he couldn't, I still have no problem with the trade

But he had no such assurances.

Maybe we should have a different thread for things Wren could be doing if the budget were much bigger.

[Knucksie]

Understood, but my point remains the same. JS was trying to keep the streak alive, and paid a high price to obtain a player that they thought could do that (and in hindsight did so almost single handedly). As long as he had assurances from the money men that he would be afforded the opportunity to either re-sign Drew or spend on a replacement in the event he couldn't, I still have no problem with the trade - it (like the Teixeira deal) was made to address a specific need that immediately strengthened the team's postseason outlook.

While the circumstances were somewhat different, the deals were both made for the same reason - they were "win now" moves that didn't cripple the organization for years to come.

JS was aiming higher than just division titles. He already realized that the playoffs had become a crap shoot with the wild card. So he didn't win the jackpot, but he did step up to the table.

Like you said, those moves didn't cripple the org. What's really incredible, and the kids here do not appreciate it as much, is that they have not been in total rebuild mode since 1990. That's why certain OP's come across as so childish with their rants. Some of them have never experienced a 100-loss Braves team in their lifetimes.

[Knucksie]

JD Drew and Mark Texeira were both Boras clients. As we all know, they always apply for free agency.

[The Chosen One]

JD Drew and Mark Texeira were both Boras clients. As we all know, they always apply for free agency.

Interesting that JS made win now moves and people were outraged.

Interesting that FW made conservative win later moves and people were outraged.

Interesting that FW made win now moves and people were outraged.


They cannot win.

[nsacpi]

Interesting that JS made win now moves and people were outraged.

Interesting that FW made conservative win later moves and people were outraged.

Interesting that FW made win now moves and people were outraged.


They cannot win.

Mostly it reflects a division between those who think an extra piece will make a big difference in our post-season fortunes and are impatient for that piece to be acquired, and those who take a longer view and want us to hold to our prospects so we can contend year in year out even with a mid-market payroll.

[clvclv]

But he had no such assurances.

Maybe we should have a different thread for things Wren could be doing if the budget were much bigger.

That was the point I made in the earlier post...

"The only thing I might do differently in either the Drew or Tex trades (and I don't have any knowledge that JS or Wren didn't) is that I would have made it perfectly clear to the bean counters that I would need the authority to bump payroll to retain the players I was trading for. They were the types of players that can win you Championships. If the Liberty Media hullabaloos would agree to a bump in payroll to extend or re-sign David Price, I'd ride with the guys in the moving trucks and help Wood, Sims, Bethancourt, and Peraza pack tomorrow."

The feeling I think most of us have is that Wren is in a similar situation to JS's at the time of the Tex deal now - IF he had assurances that Liberty would allow for additional salary to be added in the event that he could make the trade for Price and extend him, I'm relatively confident that he'd be willing to back the truck up and load it full of prospects as well. He's all but admitted that the only thing keeping him from doing so is that it's not worth it for two years...if he were getting 7 or 8 years of Price and the organization was willing to spend enough to keep the players around him, he'd have pulled the trigger already.

[nsacpi]

The feeling I think most of us have is that Wren is in a similar situation to JS's at the time of the Tex deal now - IF he had assurances that Liberty would allow for additional salary to be added in the event that he could make the trade for Price and extend him, I'm relatively confident that he'd be willing to back the truck up and load it full of prospects as well. He's all but admitted that the only thing keeping him from doing so is that it's not worth it for two years...if he were getting 7 or 8 years of Price and the organization was willing to spend enough to keep the players around him, he'd have pulled the trigger already.

I think this line of reasoning only works if the extension is below market. Otherwise why add prospects. The Phillies are finding out that guys like Lee and Hamels don't have that much trade value because of the size of their contracts. The value only exists to the extent the contracts are below market.

Sometimes the extension can even make things worse (see Uggla, Daniel). I'm not sure Price at 25M per year for years three through eight is a good idea for us. That kind of money is better allocated to locking up Heyward, Freeman & Simmons.

[Knucksie]

Interesting that JS made win now moves and people were outraged.

Interesting that FW made conservative win later moves and people were outraged.

Interesting that FW made win now moves and people were outraged.


They cannot win.

Remember a few years back at Scout when every draft pick was sacred and every prospect in the system was destined for future greatness.

Also tip of the Braves cap to you for helping to salvage some real discussion in this thread from the ravages of troll bait.

[JohnAdcox]

Mostly it reflects a division between those who think an extra piece will make a big difference in our post-season fortunes and are impatient for that piece to be acquired, and those who take a longer view and want us to hold to our prospects so we can contend year in year out even with a mid-market payroll.

That's not necessarily true. I'm one of those that thinks ones more piece can make a huge difference. I just think that ones more pieces is better made in July or so. So there are plenty of us who fall between those two extremes. By "plenty," I mean at least one, anyway.