Sims, Blair, wisler, and lots and lots of others

[msstate7]

When guys like the ones I mentioned in thread title are pretty much at the end of their rope, do you try different stuff (ie new pitches) or just keep running them out there in AAA? Seems it be a good opportunity to experiment on them by changing arm slots, changing grips on ball, or trying to teach new pitches. I have never pitched before though, so this could be foolish to try such things so late in a pitcher’s career

[nsacpi]

When guys like the ones I mentioned in thread title are pretty much at the end of their rope, do you try different stuff (ie new pitches) or just keep running them out there in AAA? Seems it be a good opportunity to experiment on them by changing arm slots, changing grips on ball, or trying to teach new pitches. I have never pitched before though, so this could be foolish to try such things so late in a pitcher’s career

yes...and they need to do this in AAA not the majors

[nsacpi]

I would guess one of Blair, Wisler, Sims and Fried will emerge as a useful bullpen piece...id be very happy if one developed into a major league starter but it looks pretty unlikely to me

[Enscheff]

These guys are the typical outcome of non-elite pitching prospects. Guys in the 50-100 range on prospect lists have a high bust rate, which is what makes those posts where folks list out the amazing depth so silly.

While I’ve long advocated an additional pitch for Fried, I am completely ignorant as to how easy/hard that is for a pitcher to do at the professional level. However, if they aren’t going to succeed anyways, it’s worth a shot, IMO.

[Horsehide Harry]

These guys are the typical outcome of non-elite pitching prospects. Guys in the 50-100 range on prospect lists have a high bust rate, which is what makes those posts where folks list out the amazing depth so silly.

While I’ve long advocated an additional pitch for Fried, I am completely ignorant as to how easy/hard that is for a pitcher to do at the professional level. However, if they aren’t going to succeed anyways, it’s worth a shot, IMO.

I don't think it is exclusively the "guys in the 50-100 range" as a gauge. I like to factor age and level as well. For instance, if a guy has just finished short season ball, is 19 years old, and is listed at 90th on a top 100 list that is very different for me as a guy who's in AA, 23 years old and listed 90th. The first guy has shown promise but is enough of a prospect unknown that scouts/list makers aren't willing to stick their neck out yet. This prospect is someone who didn't flash the top tools before a draft to generate enough buzz to have it carry him to an automatic top 100 ranking but has shown enough that maybe he was not evaluated correctly. The second guy screams system prospect who is likely a long term bench guy if a position player or a middle reliever if a pitcher.

Then you have the guys, at 90 now,but who were much higher at one point but have worked their way down the prospect list - never a good sign (Sims).

The guys who flop wildly around because of injury are more unpredictable (Fried).

[Enscheff]

The point is that it’s a mistake to rebuild around pitching.

During the rebuild, the Braves have had 3 Top 100 position prospects (Swanson, Albies, Acuna) and none of them have busted. Swanson may not ever be a star, but he is undoubtedly a MLB player.

The Braves have had countless pitchers fail. Not countless actually, but I’m not going to bother listing a dozen names. Those likely will never produce a single win for the MLB team.

Had the Braves focused on acquiring Top 100 position prospects, they would have a lot more viable MLB pieces under control right now rather than guys like Wisler, Fried and Blair doing nothing but soaking up innings.

[50PoundHead]

The thing to remember about Blair is that he was the final piece of the Miller deal, so his downfall is less painful (although still painful) than the Wisler deal or the drafting of Sims.

That said, I agree with the basic point and would add that pitchers are a little different than position players when it comes to their prospect arc. Sometimes things click later for pitchers. One little wrinkle can vault their effectiveness, but, like enscheff said, developing that wrinkle isn't something everyone can do. Curious to see how these guys do early on in Gwinnett. They all look to be AAAA guys right now with the additional issue that their stuff does not seem to include one dominant pitch to work off of, which limits their value as a bullpen guy.

[jpx7]

Fried seems the closest to making dominant pitch, and likewise screams likeliest successful bullpen transition. Blair is the only other of the four I’ve ever held a candle for: the sinking action and groundball inducement could make for a Gryboski profile with some refinement.

Wisler and Sims have always seemed like pitchability guys whose success depended on a broad but unexceptional repertoire and decent control—basically the type of pitchers with the biggest disjunction between MiLB and MLB performance. Of those two, Wisler’s the much more damning acquisition, in my mind, as the organization had professional innings by which to evaluate him (and presumably targeted him, given the other players received for Kimbrel); at least Sims was just a failure of amateur scouting.

I know the Olivera trade is heinous, but the Kimbrel deal still feels like the biggest wasted opportunity; it was (like the Simmons trade, to a lesser extent) a good idea poorly executed, which for me makes it sting more than the utterly indefensible boondoggle that was HO.

[TheBravos]

1. Where would we be in this rebuild without Albies and Acuna (two guys already in the system when the rebuild began).

2. It’s time to trade Wisler and maybe Blair(for a like lottery ticket). Give Fried and Sims another year. I like Sims fire...I still like Fried’s stuff. Out of the four guys...I feel like he has a chance to be “something”.

3. We are very well set up for the future. To think how much better we “could” have been set, minus the HO trade, and a few other trades and the International debacle (looking at the Padres did just about as well International and didn’t cheat)...it’s pretty sickening. We could be slam dunk loaded right now AND have a low payroll THIS year.

4. It’s sometimes better to be lucky than good. We got the gift of two low profile signings in Albies and Acuna. These are two likely stars from nowhere. We have also drafted well for the most part. Those two things have SAVED out butts!!

[nsacpi]

1. Where would we be in this rebuild without Albies and Acuna (two guys already in the system when the rebuild began).

copyright infringement

[bravesfanMatt]

copyright infringement

Coppywrong infringement.

[salmagundy]

FWIW ---

maybe this will ease some of the Coppy Gate crap.


Kevin Maitan’s prospect stock was already dimming after a difficult first full pro season, and the former Braves prospect has continued to draw mixed reviews from scouts in his first Spring Training with the Angels, Baseball America’s J.J. Cooper writes. Though Maitan is still just 18 years old, scouts already believe his body type won’t allow him to remain at shortstop, and he may also be too big even to handle third base. This puts more pressure on Maitan to hit if he isn’t going to play at a premium defensive position, and evaluators also have some questions about Maitan’s swing. pessimistic

[Southcack77]

FWIW ---

maybe this will ease some of the Coppy Gate crap.


Kevin Maitan’s prospect stock was already dimming after a difficult first full pro season, and the former Braves prospect has continued to draw mixed reviews from scouts in his first Spring Training with the Angels, Baseball America’s J.J. Cooper writes. Though Maitan is still just 18 years old, scouts already believe his body type won’t allow him to remain at shortstop, and he may also be too big even to handle third base. This puts more pressure on Maitan to hit if he isn’t going to play at a premium defensive position, and evaluators also have some questions about Maitan’s swing. pessimistic

No one ever expected him to stay at SS, so I don't see how this is news. It's somewhat news that he might not be a 3B, but the comp was seemingly Miggy anyway so LF was always a possibility if 3B did not work out.

Yeah, he's going to have to hit. That seems like an obvious comment to me. Wish the kid the best.

[nsacpi]

FWIW ---

maybe this will ease some of the Coppy Gate crap.


Kevin Maitan’s prospect stock was already dimming after a difficult first full pro season, and the former Braves prospect has continued to draw mixed reviews from scouts in his first Spring Training with the Angels, Baseball America’s J.J. Cooper writes. Though Maitan is still just 18 years old, scouts already believe his body type won’t allow him to remain at shortstop, and he may also be too big even to handle third base. This puts more pressure on Maitan to hit if he isn’t going to play at a premium defensive position, and evaluators also have some questions about Maitan’s swing. pessimistic

it doesn't ease it...it compounds it...venality compounded by incompetence...always a deadly combination

[50PoundHead]

it doesn't ease it...it compounds it...venality compounded by incompetence...always a deadly combination

But again, if Coppolella and company were wrong on Maitan, so was all of baseball. I'm not providing a direct or strong defense for the previous regime, but Maitan was looked at as a top-drawer talent by pretty much everyone. I think the problem with giving 16-year-olds a big check is that at that age, the body type may not be determined and kids develop at different rates. It's a long time ago, but in my small-town school, the best player on the 8th grade basketball team became a varsity bench warmer because he was 5-10 at age 14 and he never grew another inch. Could be the same effect here to some extent.

[nsacpi]

But again, if Coppolella and company were wrong on Maitan, so was all of baseball. I'm not providing a direct or strong defense for the previous regime, but Maitan was looked at as a top-drawer talent by pretty much everyone. I think the problem with giving 16-year-olds a big check is that at that age, the body type may not be determined and kids develop at different rates. It's a long time ago, but in my small-town school, the best player on the 8th grade basketball team became a varsity bench warmer because he was 5-10 at age 14 and he never grew another inch. Could be the same effect here to some extent.

good points...although we also spent a lot of money that year on players other than Maitan

[50PoundHead]

good points...although we also spent a lot of money that year on players other than Maitan

And if you look at Fangraphs, mlb.com, and Baseball America, all of our high-buck signings in 2016 were on most, if not all, of those lists. I am curious to see how it all turns out. I'm guessing most of those guys should have spent most, if not the entire, 2017 season in the Dominican Summer League.