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Thread: Affordable Care Act

  1. #1361
    Very Flirtatious, but Doubts What Love Is. jpx7's Avatar
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    I'd like to respond to some of these, though I understand you were addressing goldfly.

    Quote Originally Posted by sturg33 View Post
    You then don't seem to understand that subsidization allows entities to use money on other things they otherwise wouldn't have been able to (i.e. abortions)
    Unsurprisingly, that doesn't disturb me—nor most people in this country (though obviously it does deeply disturb a sizeable minority). Nonetheless, this line of argument would be a lot easier to swallow from those intending to federally-defund Planned Parenthood if an alternative proposal were put forward to ensure all the non-abortion services which Planned Parenthood offers were still made readily-available to those who need and depend on them. Maybe that means entirely decoupling Planned Parenthood's other services from its abortion services, then removing funding from the latter but continuing to fund the former.

    Again—though I'm not a "fan" of abortion—those practices aren't problematic for me, on a political level; yet I understand they are to some. But to frame the funding of Planned Parenthood as simply about abortion rings pretty false to me, considering no alternative systems to convey its other services has even been suggested by the party seeking to defund it.

    Quote Originally Posted by sturg33 View Post
    You haven't yet been able to tell me when government subsidization has helped improve quality and decrease costs like the technology industry has. I can't wait for the NIH to find the cure for Hep C... like Gilead recently did - and then has had Bernie Sanders yell at them for charging too much money for their cures.
    This is why I am in favor of implementing more than the mere less-than-half-way socialization of these sort of life-essential industries: because there will always a disjunction between "saving a life" and "how much is fair to charge" when profit is part of the equation.

    Quote Originally Posted by sturg33 View Post
    You don't seem to understand that running a federal deficit is theft to someone, whether it's us or future generations. It's quite selfish to support them
    Better revenue strategies would be palliative to your deficit concerns—and that needn't be only in the form of more progressive taxation practices. For instance, Matt Bruenig has some pretty good alternative ideas about that in the context of the UBI:

    The idea of capturing the 30 percent of national income that flows passively to capital every year and handing it out to everyone in society in equal chunks has been around since at least Oskar Lange wrote about it in the early parts of the last century. This is, to me, the best way to do a UBI, both practically and ideologically. Don’t tax labor to give money out to UBI “loafers.” Instead, snag society’s capital income, which is already paid out to people without regard to whether they work, and pay it out to everyone.

    This might seem like a fantastical idea to some, but this is exactly how the Alaska Permanent Fund and the Permanent Fund Dividend works. Through the Permanent Fund, the state of Alaska owns a lot of capital assets. Those assets deliver annual capital income flows to the state, which are then parceled out in equal amounts to the citizens of Alaska through the Permanent Fund Dividend.

    A national UBI would work very similarly. The US federal government would employ various strategies (mandatory share issuances, wealth taxes, counter-cyclical asset purchases, etc.) to build up a big wealth fund that owns capital assets. Those capital assets would deliver returns. And then the returns would be parceled out as a social dividend.

    If you have a problem with this, but not the current arrangement where capital income is paid out in huge sums to small fractions of our society, then your issue is not really with passive income. It can’t be.
    Quote Originally Posted by sturg33 View Post
    You don't seem to understand that guaranteeing health care for everyone implies that you are guaranteeing labor of highly specialized and skilled people (doctors)... how can you guarantee that without sacrificing liberty? I recognize that you don't care about individual liberty - but surely you can understand how what you want means someone will lose it
    Sacrifices are necessary sometimes. It's not that I "don't care about individual liberty", but instead that I am willing to trade what I consider a relatively minor aspect of it (the freedom to not guarantee the "labor of highly specialized and skilled people (doctors)") for improvement of the health and life-expectancy outcomes of our society. Indeed, in my worldview, it's immoral and illiberal not to ensure the health and medical/psychological well-being of a society's populace.

    Quote Originally Posted by sturg33 View Post
    You suck Obama's dick
    Nothing wrong with sucking a bit of some dick, if that's your fancy.

    Quote Originally Posted by sturg33 View Post
    You say Trump is a fascist but don't mention a word about Obama signing the NDAA and being the biggest war president we've ever had.
    Plenty of folks on the left, myself included, have been (and continue to be) very critical of President Obama for that. But President Obama's habeas corpus and war-mongering sins don't make President Trump any less of an authoritarian threat (and, actually, by better enabling, make him more of one).

    Quote Originally Posted by sturg33 View Post
    You keep feeding the liberal line of Russia manipulating the election but - per usual - you can't produce any evidence and can't even produce a consistent, coherent narrative as to why it's a problem.
    The Russia thing—even if one assumes it to be one-hundred-percent legitimate (and I, for one, think it's very overblown)—is a ninety-nine-percent distraction.

    Quote Originally Posted by sturg33 View Post
    You bitched for 8 years about Republicans not working to help Obama - and now you are doing precisely the same thing with Trump. Be consistent man.
    For better or worse, it already seems like the Democrats are going to be more willing to work with or capitulate to President Trump than the Republicans were to President Obama—but we shall see.
    Last edited by jpx7; 01-09-2017 at 09:55 PM.
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  2. #1362
    if my thought dreams could be seen goldfly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jpx7 View Post
    Sacrifices are necessary sometimes. It's not that I "don't care about individual liberty", but instead that I am willing to trade what I consider a relatively minor aspect of it (the freedom to not guarantee the "labor of highly specialized and skilled people (doctors)") for improvement of the health and life-expectancy outcomes of our society. Indeed, in my worldview, it's immoral and illiberal not to ensure the health and medical/psychological well-being of a society's populace.
    our founding fathers had no problem writing the 6th amendment forcing highly trained officials to do work against their will

    thus "stealing liberty" from them

    precedent was set by the founding fathers
    "For there is always light, if only we are brave enough to see it. If only we are brave enough to be it." Amanda Gorman

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  3. #1363
    I <3 Ron Paul + gilesfan sturg33's Avatar
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    JPX... i would have never written a post like that to you because you have at least remained consistent and had rational dialogue.

    Goldy is just a joke. I don't think he's that bright. If he is, he's really hiding it well.

    To address one of your points:

    Quote Originally Posted by jpx7 View Post
    Sacrifices are necessary sometimes. It's not that I "don't care about individual liberty", but instead that I am willing to trade what I consider a relatively minor aspect of it (the freedom to not guarantee the "labor of highly specialized and skilled people (doctors)") for improvement of the health and life-expectancy outcomes of our society. Indeed, in my worldview, it's immoral and illiberal not to ensure the health and medical/psychological well-being of a society's populace.
    How do you guarantee this from a very simplistic level? 1. You must have ample supply of doctors in all areas of the country. 2. You must have doctors willing to live in Idaho rather than California to make sure their covered. 3. In order to make sure those doctors are willing to do it, you probably have to compensate them heavily. 4. In order to compensate them heavily, you have to tax or steal from future generations.

    Someone is losing liberty in this equation. And it's easy to say "I am willing to trade what I consider a relatively minor aspect of it (the freedom to not guarantee the "labor of highly specialized and skilled people (doctors)") for improvement of the health and life-expectancy outcomes of our society" when you're not the person in question.

    My gf is about to graduate med school. I truly wish she never started. Thanks to managed care, physician salaries are going lower and lower. It got to the point where her mom (OBGYN) retired at after 51 because she didn't feel the compensation was worth the workload. My gf has borrowed $300,000 and given up the prime of her life in order to practice medicine to help people, and I am no longer confiedent that she will be compensated fairly. Now doctors are being paid less, and med school applications are declining because of it. So what happens? We get worse health care, we get more government intervention, we get more price controls, etc etc.

    I'm not comfortable guaranteeing the right of someone having a highly skilled and specialized service of another individual. That's just my $0.02. I know we're going to get it, because ACA was an unmitigated failure designed to collapse so we will have no choice. And somehow capitalism will be blamed and the government will be seen as the rescuer.

  4. #1364
    It's OVER 5,000! 57Brave's Avatar
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    Speaking of jokes -- after 4 years of belly aching, bogus criticism and hollow threats it appears (R) does not have the votes to repeal.

    Side note:

    A person going into medicine for the money ought reconsider their motives

    .....

    As far as that $300K debt -- I believe Sen Sanders and Sec Clinton had thoughts on that.
    Can't remember Gary Johnson's stance
    Last edited by 57Brave; 01-10-2017 at 09:00 AM.
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  5. #1365
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    The best way to stop a bad guy with a gun is to make sure he doesn’t get a gun.

  6. #1366
    It's OVER 5,000! 57Brave's Avatar
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    The more than 11.5 million person tally is as of Dec. 24, according to data released Tuesday. That number is 286,000 more people than were signed up for Obamacare plans at the same time period during the prior open enrollment.

    http://www.cnbc.com/2017/01/10/obama...d-replace.html
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  7. #1367
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    Why can't (R) just say the main problem with ACA is it was a political win for the Obama Administration.
    The best way to stop a bad guy with a gun is to make sure he doesn’t get a gun.

  8. #1368
    I <3 Ron Paul + gilesfan sturg33's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 57Brave View Post
    Side note:

    A person going into medicine for the money ought reconsider their motives

    .....

    As far as that $300K debt -- I believe Sen Sanders and Sec Clinton had thoughts on that.
    Can't remember Gary Johnson's stance
    Oh... you want people to give up 10 years of their life training a highly specialized skill that few can do to not expect to be compensated?

    And their plan was to steal from others to erase it.

    Again.... liberty is taken from someone always

  9. #1369
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    1) I never wrote anything about denying compensation for a " highly specialized skill " Reread

    2) " mathamatics concepts " --- again.

    3) ah Liberty
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  10. #1370
    I <3 Ron Paul + gilesfan sturg33's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 57Brave View Post
    1) I never wrote anything about denying compensation for a " highly specialized skill " Reread

    2) " mathamatics concepts " --- again.

    3) ah Liberty
    1) I never said you did. I responded to your point. Reread

    2) I know you don't understand math. You don't have to keep proving it to us

    3. It's a bitch ain't it? It seems the only liberty you support is abortion

  11. #1371
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    Andy Slavitt Verified account
    ‏@ASlavitt

    ACA repeal affects many who aren't aware.

    Here are the people impacted on in one place.

    RT if you think helpful.




    The best way to stop a bad guy with a gun is to make sure he doesn’t get a gun.

  12. #1372
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    CNNVerified account
    ‏@CNN

    Voter to @SenTomCotton: My husband is dying. We can't afford health insurance. What kind of insurance do you have?

    ...................

    LOLGOP‏@LOLGOP 5m5 minutes ago

    LOLGOP Retweeted CNN

    Weird coincidence, madam. I have the kind of health insurance I'm not trying to take away from 25 million Americans.
    The best way to stop a bad guy with a gun is to make sure he doesn’t get a gun.

  13. #1373
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    "Unfortunately, at this time there are groups from the more violent strains of the leftist ideology, some even being paid, who are preying on public town halls to wreak havoc and threaten public safety. Threats are nothing new to me and I have gotten my share as a felony judge. However, the House Sergeant at Arms advised us after former Congresswoman Gabby Giffords was shot at a public appearance, that civilian attendees at Congressional public events stand the most chance of being harmed or killed—just as happened there. One Congressional friend had one of his district staff members knocked unconscious and hospitalized this past week after being overrun by a group intent on physical confrontation and disruption. "
    - Louis Gohmert Feb , 2017

    On why he won't face constituents Town Hall meetings to discuss Gohmert's vote to repeal and replace/
    ...........................

    Different picture - different time

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  14. #1374
    It's OVER 5,000! Jaw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 57Brave View Post
    CNNVerified account
    ‏@CNN

    Voter to @SenTomCotton: My husband is dying. We can't afford health insurance. What kind of insurance do you have?

    ...................

    LOLGOP‏@LOLGOP 5m5 minutes ago

    LOLGOP Retweeted CNN

    Weird coincidence, madam. I have the kind of health insurance I'm not trying to take away from 25 million Americans.
    Which California senator was it that derided a constituent shortly before ACA was passed? The constituent asked the senator if she would be on one of the ACA plans and the senator's reply was along the lines of "That's ridiculous, show me more respect, I'm a senator."

    There were efforts to put congress on ACA plans. The people that voted for ACA didn't think that was a good idea.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 57Brave View Post
    "Unfortunately, at this time there are groups from the more violent strains of the leftist ideology, some even being paid, who are preying on public town halls to wreak havoc and threaten public safety. Threats are nothing new to me and I have gotten my share as a felony judge. However, the House Sergeant at Arms advised us after former Congresswoman Gabby Giffords was shot at a public appearance, that civilian attendees at Congressional public events stand the most chance of being harmed or killed—just as happened there. One Congressional friend had one of his district staff members knocked unconscious and hospitalized this past week after being overrun by a group intent on physical confrontation and disruption. "
    - Louis Gohmert Feb , 2017

    On why he won't face constituents Town Hall meetings to discuss Gohmert's vote to repeal and replace/
    ...........................

    Different picture - different time

    He asks as if recent gatherings of democrats have been lawless or something. Weird.

  16. #1376
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    With a minimum of effort you can tell us all which Senator and please include full quote and context.
    Sen Feinstein and Sen Boxer were California Senators.
    That sentiment sounds nothing like anything either have said
    If you claim it please back it up.

    I am willing to stand corrected
    Last edited by 57Brave; 02-23-2017 at 12:27 PM.
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  17. #1377
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaw View Post
    He asks as if recent gatherings of democrats have been lawless or something. Weird.
    No he inferred

    " "Unfortunately, at this time there are groups from the more violent strains of the leftist ideology, some even being paid, who are preying on public town halls to wreak havoc and threaten public safety "

    " Threats are nothing new to me ... "
    what threats ? Besides the threat of voting him out of office


    " One Congressional friend had one of his district staff members knocked unconscious and hospitalized this past week after being overrun by a group intent on physical confrontation and disruption. "

    who ? what congressman what aide
    .............................
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  18. #1378
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    Adam Cancryn
    ‏@adamcancryn

    Trump on health reform: "Now, I have to tell you, it's an unbelievably complex subject. Nobody knew health care could be so complicated."


    LOLGOP‏

    Remember all those studies about Fox News viewers being unusually misinformed. That's our president now.




    http://www.vox.com/2017/2/27/1475094...re-complicated

    If Congress wanted to, they could easily reverse this order of operations. Ryan and Trump could set ACA repeal aside and work on a revenue-neutral tax reform plan. Then if it passes, they could consider health issues separately. Ryan doesn’t want to do it that way. And to be clear, that’s him making a choice, not a statutory requirement. But people in Trump’s circle seem to have misinformed him about the sequencing — possibly in order to prevent the president and the speaker from getting into a dispute about it.
    Last edited by 57Brave; 02-27-2017 at 11:53 AM.
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  19. #1379
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    New Day‏Verified account @NewDay

    GOP Rep. Chaffetz: Americans may need to choose between "new iphone... they just love" and investing in health care

    it's that kinda schit
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  20. #1380
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    Political Theater

    Alan Mundy‏ @idontwan2know 5m5 minutes ago

    The irony of course is that this bill is a non-starter in the Senate. Would be lucky to get 45 votes.
    The best way to stop a bad guy with a gun is to make sure he doesn’t get a gun.

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