Debate of the Week, who is on your HOF Ballot

[zitothebrave]

I don't know if I agree that you shouldn't be able to change your mind.

I mean a lot of guys have changed their perception on pitchers because of statistics, Morris being a perfect example.

I think if people take a few years to recognize how good someone was by looking at their stats again, I think that's fine.

Biggio gets hurt because he was considered a compiler, but like jpx I agree that guys who last a long time in this game SHOULD get recognition. It shouldn't be about peak exclusively, as Pedro Martinez will be the perfect example of a peak starter without compiling huge numbers. Biggio compiled stats and was loyal he should be in. Helton will be hurt because of Coors, but the fact he was loyal to Colorado his entire career, and quietly put up very good numbers should be in consideration.

If you aren't voting for 10 guys I don't think you shoudl. What would make you change your mind on someone's eligibility 13 years later? I think you should have to ustify your picks, including why you think someone is eligible now but wasn't then. If you can't give a solid reason as for why you vote for someone and didn't as well, then you should be eliminated from the panel of voters.

Of course I agree with a writer (I think from Chicago) where they should just ditch the writers voting and the hall just elects people.

[The Chosen One]

The entire purpose of having the writers decide was to have objectivity and require consensus.

If it's up to the hall, Bonds and Clemens may not even be on the ballot anymore.

Writers still give both of them a chance since a good handful of writers acknowledge how good they were pre-PED suspected use.

Also, there will be guys in the hall that won't vote for PED guys to make themselves look better (Sutton and his spitballing).

[zitothebrave]

Valid points, but I think the end results are largely the same.

[The Chosen One]

Looking ahead to future guys who will be on first-time ballots:

2015:
Pedro
Randy
Smoltz
Sheffield
Nomar

2016:
Trevor Hoffman
Billy Wagner
Jim Edmonds
Ken Griffey

2017:
Varitek
Wakefield
Posada
Magg Pipes
Vlad
Manny
Pudge

2018:
Moyer
Vizquel
Rolen
Andruw
Damon
Jim Thome
Chipper
Matsui
Kerry Wood
Millwood

2019
Halladay
Pettite
Rivera
Helton

[zitothebrave]

I think Pedro and RJ get in there, I don't think Smoltz does but who knows. I'm sure Sheffield doesn't get in, Nomar doesn't belong. Edmonds and Griffey should get in (Edmonds probably not dirst ballot though) I have reservations about Hoffman and Wagner, would need to do more research. The next class aside from Pudge isnt' that amazing. 2018 is a hell of a class. Rolen, Andruw, Chipper, and Thome all deserve to get in. , 2019 only Helton and Rivera truly deserve to get in, Halladay again would have to do some research.

[The Chosen One]

Looking at the list:

Pedro-Randy-Smoltz get in. Sheffield may have to wait a few years because BALCO/Bonds but I think he gets in because his latter half of his career he wasn't as big of a jerk as Barry. Nomar may never get in.

2016, Hoffman should get in. Wagner may wait a few years. Griffey will be in hopefully unanimously. If it isn't a Brave then I want it to be Griffey not a Yankee. Edmonds may get in on 2nd year.

2017, Vlad I think gets in. Manny never gets in because of PED suspensions, and Pudge IDK because of Canseco link. Varitek or Wakefield may one day get in just because of Boston love.

2018, Vizquel-Thome-Chipper- and MAYBE Rolen should all get in.

2019, I think Halladay and Rivera get in on 1st try. Halladay's case is hurt because of shorter peak and he played most of his years in Toronto but he still won 2 Cy Youngs, each in a different league. Helton probably waits a year and Pettite probably never gets in just because of link to McNamee-Clemens-Mitchell Report.

[zitothebrave]

BTW on the topic of the potential HOF guys, The top 15 as of 2018 win rWAR7 which is the sum of the 7 best seasons, not necessarily in a row.

Bonds 72.8
Clemens 66.3
RJ 62.0
Pedro 58.2
Griffey 53.9
Schilling 49.0
Bagwell 48.2
Chipper 46.6
Andruw 46.4
Johan (will get thrown off if he plays again) 44.8
Walker 44.6
Mussina 44.5
Sosa 43.7 (key reason why I don't consider him a HOF btw, even with roids, he didn't have an insane peak and that peak was almost his entire production)
Rolen 43.5
Ed Mart 43.5

Piazza, Nomar, Edmonds, Raines, McGwire, Thome, BIggio, Abreu, Vlad, and Manny round out the next 10.

[The Chosen One]

Speaking of Edgar, I think 2017 is the ideal year he gets voted in. Manny ain't getting in, Pudge questionable and Vlad should but don't know if he will. Could be a weird year where Edmonds, Edgar, and Wagner or Hoffman get elected.

[nsacpi]

Looks like 2017 is the best chance for guys like Raines and Schilling.

My guess:

2015: RJ, Pedro, Smoltz, Biggio
2016: Griffey, Hoffman
2017: Raines, Schilling
2018: Chipper
2019: Mariano

[AUTiger7222]

I don't know if I agree that you shouldn't be able to change your mind.

I mean a lot of guys have changed their perception on pitchers because of statistics, Morris being a perfect example.

I think if people take a few years to recognize how good someone was by looking at their stats again, I think that's fine.

Biggio gets hurt because he was considered a compiler, but like jpx I agree that guys who last a long time in this game SHOULD get recognition. It shouldn't be about peak exclusively, as Pedro Martinez will be the perfect example of a peak starter without compiling huge numbers. Biggio compiled stats and was loyal he should be in. Helton will be hurt because of Coors, but the fact he was loyal to Colorado his entire career, and quietly put up very good numbers should be in consideration.

I think what should be a feather in Biggio's cap so to speak is that he was a team first guy. Played catcher, moved to 2nd base, moved to the outfield and then moved back to 2nd base. He played wherever the Astros needed him to play for the betterment of the team and never saw any decline in production while moving around to different positions. I think voters should appreciate that aspect of Biggio's career.

[AUTiger7222]

Wupk and I were talking about this the other day. Glavine does not have flashy godlike numbers, but if you remember when he pitched how remarkably good he was then you would change your mind.

Glavine's case is helped by:
300 wins (5 20 win seasons, impressive even if you don't like that stat)
Union Head for so many years.
Don't think anyone ever assumed he took PED's.
2 Cy Youngs
Responsible for Braves only WS title.
He's a left hander.

Costas remarked today how efficient Glavine and Maddux were. How they had low pitch counts to finish games in 8 innings or even CG. The amount of CG's they racked up back then would be unheard of today. Halladay and Lee are two of the pitchers that could go 8 or 9 with very low pitch counts. I think the fact managers coddle pitchers so much and go to the bullpen early, makes Maddux and Glavine's durability stand out even more. I mean when Medlen was on that insane run, we were in love with how many times he could go 7+ innings because seeing a starter make it to the 8th let alone 9th was something we haven't seen in a long time. Maddux, Glavine, and even Smoltz did that regularly not because Cox let them stay out there but because they were good enough to stay out there.

Again, Glavine doesn't have the big numbers to stand out other than wins, but he was a pitcher like Maddux. He would still have been an ace on most teams in his prime, his body of work just gets overshadowed because he pitched in the same rotation as Smoltz and Maddux. Smoltz was always looked at as the biggest power pitcher on that rotation, Maddux was the ultimate finess and control guy, while Glavine was the quiet fighter. He would walk somebody then come back and take down the next few guys. He also attacked the zone and painted the corners maybe not the same as Maddux (who does?) but he was good enough to where the umpire would give him benefit of the doubt neighborhood calls.

Also Glavine did win 2 Cy Youngs and he won them in 91 and 98, a span of 8 years. I don't have a way of finding this out other than just looking at everyone that has ever won the Cy Young but I've got to believe that is one of the biggest gaps ever between winning Cy Young's which goes back to the point about Glavine's durability.

[Hawk]

How can Bonds not be in the Hall, seriously? He's never been officially reprimanded in any way and his numbers still stand in the record books. It's not like we're dealing with a Pete Rose-type in terms of punishably documented infractions.

I just find it laughingly disgusting that the:
- All-time Home Run leader
- Single season Home Run king
- All-time BB/IBB leader
- 7 time MVP (4 years consecutively)
- 14 time All-Star
- 8 time Gold Glove winner

Is not in the Hall of Fame. And nobody really talks about it.

"Oh, he did steroids."

But his numbers are still there, no expungement, no asterisk. What a joke.

[Julio3000]

How can Bonds not be in the Hall, seriously? He's never been officially reprimanded in any way and his numbers still stand in the record books. It's not like we're dealing with a Pete Rose-type in terms of punishably documented infractions.

I just find it laughingly disgusting that the:
- All-time Home Run leader
- Single season Home Run king
- All-time BB/IBB leader
- 7 time MVP (4 years consecutively)
- 14 time All-Star
- 8 time Gold Glove winner

Is not in the Hall of Fame. And nobody really talks about it.

"Oh, he did steroids."

But his numbers are still there, no expungement, no asterisk. What a joke.

He's a dick. It's pretty much that simple. If he weren't such a king-size knob, he'd probably scrape his way in pretty soon. The writers are exacting the passive-aggressive revenge available to them. That sad condition (i.e. being a dick) afflicts Pete Rose and Roger Clemens as well, although they have the relative good fortune to be dicks who are also white, meaning they may be forgiven at some point, post-repentance.

I had the opportunity to see Barry Bonds in action a couple of years ago. Anyone who has ever insinuated that he is a dick has vastly understated the case. But yeah, his Hall of Fame case is pretty much a no-brainer.

[zitothebrave]

PLenty of baseball players were dicks on and off the field. Clemens and Bonds are part of the steroid witch hunt. It is that simple.

[AUTiger7222]

He's a dick. It's pretty much that simple. If he weren't such a king-size knob, he'd probably scrape his way in pretty soon. The writers are exacting the passive-aggressive revenge available to them. That sad condition (i.e. being a dick) afflicts Pete Rose and Roger Clemens as well, although they have the relative good fortune to be dicks who are also white, meaning they may be forgiven at some point, post-repentance.

I had the opportunity to see Barry Bonds in action a couple of years ago. Anyone who has ever insinuated that he is a dick has vastly understated the case. But yeah, his Hall of Fame case is pretty much a no-brainer.

And that should have no barren on if a guy is elected to the HOF or not but sadly it does. Unfortunately Dale Murphy's niceness wasn't enough to make up the difference and get him in.

[The Chosen One]

Are the writers that voted for Bonds' 4 consecutive MVP's, not the same group that makes up a huge part of the HoF electorate?

[AUTiger7222]

Are the writers that voted for Bonds' 4 consecutive MVP's, not the same group that makes up a huge part of the HoF electorate?

Yeah. We know the BWAA are nothing but a bunch of hypocrites.

P.S. I think Pete Rose should be in. Yeah he bet on baseball and yeah he lied about it forever. But he finally admitted to it in 2004 and he never bet on his team to lose. He always bet on them to win. I think the time has come to lift the ban and put him in. Do it before he dies. Seriously.

[zitothebrave]

Yeah. We know the BWAA are nothing but a bunch of hypocrites.

P.S. I think Pete Rose should be in. Yeah he bet on baseball and yeah he lied about it forever. But he finally admitted to it in 2004 and he never bet on his team to lose. He always bet on them to win. I think the time has come to lift the ban and put him in. Do it before he dies. Seriously.

There's no way to prove how he bet one way or another. So it's silly speculating. But not betting on baseball is the cardinal rule, and he broke it.

[AUTiger7222]

There's no way to prove how he bet one way or another. So it's silly speculating. But not betting on baseball is the cardinal rule, and he broke it.

You seriously think he bet on his team to lose? That's like them saying that Shoeless Joe Jackson threw the World Series in 1919 even though he set World Series records for hits and RBI's in the series. If he threw the World Series he wouldn't have set those records.

[zitothebrave]

You seriously think he bet on his team to lose? That's like them saying that Shoeless Joe Jackson threw the World Series in 1919 even though he set World Series records for hits and RBI's in the series. If he threw the World Series he wouldn't have set those records.

Shoeless Joe was in on the fix, whether he tried to or not. Maybe by not trying he happened to play a little better cause he wasn't pressing. As far as Rose and betting, you again don't know. Maybe Rose had a game he bet on his team to lose, because 162 games, tanking a few is not that big. He was a .500ish manager, so who's to say what he did or didn't bet on. You don't know. He bet on baseball, he got banned, it's that simple. Even if he never bet on the Reds it doesn't matter.