Debate of the Week, who is on your HOF Ballot

[AUTiger7222]

Shoeless Joe was in on the fix, whether he tried to or not. Maybe by not trying he happened to play a little better cause he wasn't pressing. As far as Rose and betting, you again don't know. Maybe Rose had a game he bet on his team to lose, because 162 games, tanking a few is not that big. He was a .500ish manager, so who's to say what he did or didn't bet on. You don't know. He bet on baseball, he got banned, it's that simple. Even if he never bet on the Reds it doesn't matter.

I understand what you're saying but for Fay Vincent and the MLB to think Pete Rosa is the only one to ever bet on baseball is hypocritical. How else do they justify Sam Holbrook making the call that he did unless they're in on him betting on the Cardinals to win that game? I'm convinced with some of the calls that have shafted the Braves over the years that MLB umpires are as dirty as NBA officials are. Throw the NFL in there for good measure too.

[zitothebrave]

You can speculate who bet or who didn't, that's fine, he got caught. I mean it's like making a case for a DUI that other people do it and don't get caught so why should you be tried. If those umps are caught they should be banned from baseball. Anyone who is caught betting on baseball while actively participating in the sport should be banned. If you're not caught you're lucky, if you are you get banned. If you're caught as part of a fix (like the Black Sox) then again, banned.

[Carp]

My take on Rose:

I don't see what betting on baseball as a manager had to do with Pete Rose as a baseball player. Pete Rose the baseball is the one that is HOF worthy, not Pete Rose the manager. Ban him for life fi you wish, but not having him in the HOF is dumb

[Krgrecw]

Carp, since Rose bet on baseball, even bet on the team he was coaching, could there be a chance that he also betting when he was still a player? The player/manager years overlap and the dude can't be taken at his word. People don't suddenly become gamblers at 40 years old.

[zitothebrave]

My take on Rose:

I don't see what betting on baseball as a manager had to do with Pete Rose as a baseball player. Pete Rose the baseball is the one that is HOF worthy, not Pete Rose the manager. Ban him for life fi you wish, but not having him in the HOF is dumb

But Rose the manager isn't a different person than Rose the player. Rose was a moron and broke pretty much the only rule in baseball that gets you banned.

But I don't get this Rose 100% must be a HOF. Like the people who put him in the class as Ted Williams, etc. I mean he shoudl be in of course, but he's not one of the 10 best players in the history of baseball like some people make him out to be.

[AUTiger7222]

You can speculate who bet or who didn't, that's fine, he got caught. I mean it's like making a case for a DUI that other people do it and don't get caught so why should you be tried. If those umps are caught they should be banned from baseball. Anyone who is caught betting on baseball while actively participating in the sport should be banned. If you're not caught you're lucky, if you are you get banned. If you're caught as part of a fix (like the Black Sox) then again, banned.

Right. But you can't get caught if the MLB is in on the fix. I still don't know how the NBA officials got caught when the NBA knew it was happening because they were in on it.

[AUTiger7222]

But Rose the manager isn't a different person than Rose the player. Rose was a moron and broke pretty much the only rule in baseball that gets you banned.

But I don't get this Rose 100% must be a HOF. Like the people who put him in the class as Ted Williams, etc. I mean he shoudl be in of course, but he's not one of the 10 best players in the history of baseball like some people make him out to be.

I don't think Rose is one of the 10 greatest players ever but he does hold the record for most hits ever. That counts for something. Yeah it's just a counting stat but it's impressive none the less because it shows that he was able to stick around and stay productive for a very long time.

Here's my opinion of the Pro Baseball HOF. It's not called the Pro Baseball Hall of Morals. It's called the Pro Baseball Hall of Fame. Look at the definition of Fame.

fame
fām/
noun
noun: fame

1.
the condition of being known or talked about by many people, esp. on account of notable achievements.

Does that not describe the things Pete Rose did in baseball, both good and bad? Same goes for Shoeless Joe Jackson, Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, Mark McGwire, ect. That's why those guys should be in regardless of betting, PED's or any other reason anyone can come up with to keep people out.

[zitothebrave]

McGwire doesn't make it for me. He's way more deserving than Sosa, but for me, he didn't play enough to get in. Bonds and Clemens though should be in. They were never suspended for cheating or banned from baseball, let them in.

[AUTiger7222]

McGwire doesn't make it for me. He's way more deserving than Sosa, but for me, he didn't play enough to get in. Bonds and Clemens though should be in. They were never suspended for cheating or banned from baseball, let them in.

McGwire didn't play enough? 1986-2001 isn't playing enough? 1,874 games played.

[Hawk]

I think he meant play well enough.

[AUTiger7222]

I think he meant play well enough.

I disagree with that too. McGwire carried a career triple slash line of .263/.394/.588 with 583 HR's (10th most all-time.) 12-time all-star. Rookie of the year in 1987. Gold glove winner in 1990. Never won an MVP but finished in the top 7 five times. Had a rWAR of 62.0.

But he was horrible in the playoffs though. Hit just .217/.320/.349 in 151 post season plate appearances with just 5 homeruns and 14 rbi's.

[thewupk]

I disagree with that too. McGwire carried a career triple slash line of .263/.394/.588 with 583 HR's (10th most all-time.) 12-time all-star. Rookie of the year in 1987. Gold glove winner in 1990. Never won an MVP but finished in the top 7 five times. Had a rWAR of 62.0.

But he was horrible in the playoffs though. Hit just .217/.320/.349 in 151 post season plate appearances with just 5 homeruns and 14 rbi's.

A WAR in the lows 60's is pretty borderline for a HOFer. I think any guy who used steroids to get themselves in a position to be in the HOF shouldn't be in. Guys like McGwire and Palmiero come to mind. They are not hall of famers without PEDS. Bonds and Clemens were imo and why they should be in.

As far as Rose goes. I don't think it's truly fair that he is on the banned list for the HOF. The HOF is not governed by MLB and doesn't have to abide but it's rules. Betting on the game while playing is(was) the cardinal sin of baseball and should be rightfully punished of being banned from MLB and not being associated with it anymore. However that's not how it should work for the HOF imo.