Originally Posted by
Millwood1Hitter
JS in my opinion was a reactionist that couldn’t get out of the way of his enlarged ego after all of the success in Atlanta in the early 90’s. The strengths of our organization were starting pitching and middle of the lineups, but our teams lacked balance (speed & OBP at top of lineup) and bullpens consisted of retreads that our environment allowed them to be successful for the most part.
JS gets too much credit for our prolonged success, while Bobby and Leo IMO did not get enough recognition for creating the winning atmosphere in the clubhouse. Just listening to Maddux lately and you will understand.
Its like JS had an agenda to make himself look smart and instead of making subtle moves to make the team better, he had to totally transform the team into something it wasn’t. Steve Avery was in decline but we still had the best top 3 starters in baseball, when you have them you don’t need a great 4th starter. But hey JS screams look at me, I got Denny Neagle, leading to the Justice salary dump and a whole chain of events. He fails miserably to put together a top of the lineup in 98-99 in front of a great middle of the lineup, but overreacts and and changes the dynamic of our team with Veras and Sanders, which lead to another whole chain of events that backfired, primarily a large hole at 1B when Galarraga leave with the Sanders-Klesko exchange.
And while there is no doubt Bobby had input, and there were financial constraints, especially in the early 2000s when Time Wariner took over, I find it hard to believe that ownership had there hands around JS’s neck to cut or not take on salary. Lets look at the facts:
During that time frame, JS was still out spending money and taking salaries on in most of his dealings. The only true salary dumps were the Justice/Grissom for Lofton trade, which freed up money in 1997 to take on Neagle’s extension, but again we had plenty of starting pitching. The other salary dump that took place during time frame was dumping Neagle/Tucker for Boone/Remlinger which essentially freed up money to sign Jordan. Every other move that JS made during that frame we took ON additional salary. The only other move that freed up salary at the time was the San Diego trade, in which we took on more salary with the acquisitions of Veras, Sanders, and Joyner in 2000 but freed up long-term money by getting rid of Klesko, who had a long-term contract. In the end, though, JS ended up spending more money that than Klesko deal trying to patch 1B from 2001-2002 with failed projects in Rico Brogna, Ken Caminiti, and the subsequent acquisition of Surhoff. In 2001 we spent a total of close to 7 million on failed 1B projects, while Klesko made 5.75 million. Think about that.
During that same time frame, JS was still out wining and dining high profile free agents. Don’t tell me he didn’t have the flexibility and funds to spend. We basically had AROD signed to a big deal before Texas came in on the last moment. We were in on Mike Hampton as well. He flirted with Kevin Brown before Los Angeles came in and gave him that absurd deal. We were in on Griffey before Cincy got him. Its hard to imagine that we had a hard cap on salaries, as I fanthom to think what would have happened if we did finalize the deal with AROD. It would have been the old “economics of baseball stink” times 100 compared to what transpired a year or two later.
Again, every trade except the Cincinnati and Cleveland moves the Atlanta Braves took on MORE salary in the short-term.
We had unbalanced teams and instead of tweaking things and getting impact players, JS often failed to do so as our window closed. Again, I will go back to the Alomar in 1998 deal. He is exactly what this team needed that year. The O’s were fading and Alomar was in the last year of his contract. They wanted to move him, we had a huge need for a top of the lineup impact hitter to put in front of Chipper, Galarraga, Klesko, Lopez, Andruw, etc. We had the highest rated pitching prospect at that time in Chen in the minors, and other highly thought of prospects like Bell, Bowie, Rivera, Perez. There is no doubt that Baltimore would have done a deal centered around Chen, who we didn’t need with the depth of the starting pitching at the time. Our window was closing, while the big 3 would go on and have more productive years they were getting past their prime and dominant stages. The bullpen was also a mess.
JS did nothing to shore up a team decimated with injuries in 1999. No reason to elaborate here. If JS trades Neagle for Vina, though instead of another high SO power hitter in Boone that we didn’t need things could have ended up differently. He also didn’t maximize Rob Bell’s return as most scouts were believed he could have been the next John Smoltz. Bowie gets traded for little value in Mulholland and Hernadez.
I went in depth at the beginning on the San Diego trade of the 2000 season. But that same year, JS got little value for Chen, who was apparent was not the TOR starter that everyone thought he would develop into, for Andy Ashby, who was a non-impact. Meanwhile, Philly gave up Schilling for a questionable packaged based around top prosects Travis Lee & Vicinte Padialla, journeyman Omar Daal, & Nelson Figueroa. After a fantastic spring training, our own Luis Rivera was drawing rave reviews from opponent scouts and darting up the top prospect boards, only to get dealt for little value in Surhoff who was a product of Camden Yards. And the Surhoff deal didn’t have to be made if Klesko isn’t traded for Sanders, who had the worst year of his career. If Bell isn’t a throw in on the Cincy deal or JS makes the Milwaukee trade, we could have centered a deal around him to get Schilling. Hell, we still had Rivera, Chen, Betemit, Lombard, Marquis, Perez, Helms, and Osting to deal to get real fortification in Schilling for the rotation. I’ll be the first to admit that we didn’t have the greatest minor league system out of all the organizations, but we still had plenty of good highly touted talent to deal during these years to get impact players.
JS had the ability to take on salary in 2001. He was in on Hampton, he almost had AROD. Despite being in on AROD big time and the apparent leader until the last moment, JS was in heavy negotiations with Darren Dreifort. YIKES
Despite the fact that we was willing and able to spend big money on AROD and or Hampton/Dreifort, JS failed to shore up the biggest weakness on the team at 1B, which was created by looking into the future with the Klesko trade. We also had a hole in LF. Despite all of this JS failed to recognize a need and still had a chance to resign Galarraga as a stopgap or Mark Grace. JS’s idea of upgrading first was a Rico Brogna & Wes Helms platoon which failed, then the failed experiment in Caminiti, and luck in finding Julio. He still had a chance to make amends at the trade deadline to reacquire the Crime Dog, who was traded for basically Manny Aybar to the Cubs. EPIC FAILURE THIS ENTIRE SEASON! We kept the streak alive due to a weak division. Our offense became considerably worse when we lost Furcal to injury and was replaced with Rey Sanchez. We got lucky beating the Astros, and rode the coattails of Maddux, Glavine, and Chipper but got overmatched by Schilling and Johnson.
Finally in 2002, JS made an impact move to upgrade a need as we needed middle of the order power in Sheffield. That trade was a no brainer. But at that time it was too little too late. Glavine and Maddux were still great, but not overpowering mainstays. We finally had stability with a dominant closer in our best postseason pitcher in Smoltz. We still had a legit shot at WS, though, as Millwood finally returned to his dominant form and a great bullpen. The 2001 pre Sheffield and post Sheffield is still baffling, as JS ignoring a need at 1B. We relied on the Francos for production from first, who did well in the regular season, but were overwhelmed in the playoffs. JS overspent dearly on Albie Lopez, who provided nothing. It would have made some sense if JS would have followed up and trade Marquis to Cincy for Sean Casey, but JS didn’t pull the trigger and opted to sign Castilla for 3rd, move Chipper to LF, and leave the Surhoff basically as utility man/1B platoon partner with Julio before getting injured. We spent close to 12 million in 02 on Surhoff, Albie, & Castilla and they gave us close to nothing. JS still had an opportunity to make amends in the middle of the offseason by trading for either Thome or Rolen who would have had a huge impact on the lineup, but JS failed to make the acquisition despite having guys like Marquis, Betemit, Wainwright, Nelson, Belisle, Miner, and Evert at his disposal. 2002 was our last year at truly a legit run at a WS.
I hit on the 2003 fiasco with Glavine-Maddux-Millwood-Hampton-Byrd-Ortiz in a previous post. JS cornered himself into that situation. Why JS wanted to keep and sign Glavine over Maddux is still baffling, considering Glavine’s second half 2002, in which I started to believe that Glavine had shoulder issues but never let on to it with impeding FA. JS was arrogant and scared to negotiate with Boras at this point in time, a huge failure of communication between the 2 after the AROD deal. If JS doesn’t go ape wild before the arbitration deadline wheeling and dealing and spending money on mediocre pitching then he isn’t forced to trade our best pitcher as a salary dump. He sold high on Moss for Ortiz, but in doing so we took on an additional 4 million. When it became apparent that Maddux was going to accept arb, I was hoping that JS saw the light and was going to swap Ortiz for Sean Casey, basically even salaries and Casey would have been a considerable upgrade at 1st. The Reds were hot and heavy after Ortiz, just like they were for Marquis the year before, and had a log-jam in the OF/1B. He signed Byrd for 2 years 11 million, horrible deal at the time and even worse when he blew out his elbow, which everyone saw coming.
JS made himself at the time look like a genius to the average fan pulling the Hampton trade off in late November after it was apparent that Glavine was not going to take our deal. While the Braves were only responsible for 3.5 million of Hamptons albatross of a contract for the first 3 years, the final 3 years where the Braves were responsible for all of the contract were actually spread over the entire 6 years of the contract, therefore actually 8 million was allotted to the 2003-2005 budgets. Hmmm, sound familiar, yep, because 3 years 24 million was the deal that JS offered Glavine.
So essentially JS in the back of his mind had and spent 15.5 million before the arbitration deadline, whether it was Glavine, Ortiz, Byrd or Hampton, Ortiz, Byrd. By that time, he had already basically committed 22.5 million for 2004 as well on those same players, no matter what the combination of players might have been. Plus we were carrying too much dead weight with Castillas contract.
With the market being soft for Maddux, and with Maddux’s willingness to come and stay in Atlanta at below market value, if JS had any type of dialogue at all with Boras, Maddux more than likely would have accepted a deal similar to that we threw out at Glavine, probably would have taken a little more, say 3 years 30 million. That along would have saved us nearly 5 million for 2003. And also with that, JS should have been dealing with Scott Boras on buying out the final two years of arbitration with Millwood and signing him to a 3-4 year extension. You really think Boras pinned two of his clients against each other. I don’t like Boras either, but he does try to get the best for his clients.
So the way it worked out in the end with Maddux accept arbitration and winning, JS had 30 million going towards budget for his top 4 starters (Maddux, Ortiz, Hampton/Glavine, Byrd). If JS has dialogue with Boras on Maddux and Millwood, we could have had a significantly better rotation at the same price with Millwood, Maddux, Ortiz, Hampton. The Paul Byrd and his 11 million dollar contract was the tipping point that forced JS to trade Millwood under the circumstances explained. He also tied up an additional 11 million over the next 3 years on John Thomson in 2004.
The following offseason, due to a lack of willingness to have dialogue with Boras, JS was once again in a corner to hurt our organization by failing to lock Sheffield up to a long-term deal when he was acquired. Much like Maddux, Sheffield would have been willing to stay here for comforts of a long-term deal and take a little less. But JS failed to negotiate with Boras and ultimately pissed Sheffield off, only to have JS come in at the last moment once it was apparent he was going to the Yankees to try to get a deal done.
That lead to us overpaying to find a replacement for Sheffield in another Boras client in Drew. At this point in time we didn’t have a legitamte chance to win a WS. We gave up a potential ace in Wainwright & a solid starter in Marquis for one year of Drew who moved on to the Dodgers. JS didn’t get maximum value in Marquis, who just 2 years earlier alone would have netted us a big need and potential all-star caliber first basemen in Sean Casey.
Drew leaving the following season, let even a bigger hole to fill, and JS is just lucky to keep the streak alive as the baby Braves came and saved the world. JS needs credit for the Hudson deal, but trying to believe that relying on Jordan and Mondesi in the OF was an epic failure, much like failing to fill the 1B hole in the early 00’s.
JS again needs credit the following year for pulling off the Renteria steal. But with that he failed to put together a decent bullpen and was forced to get an alcoholic (aybar) and an average reliever (baez) for once top prospect Betemit, who years earlier would have returned a bounty in a trade. Im not going to mention the Kolb and Wickman disasters.
So after that season, JS was once again grasping at the straws, and overreacting. So he trades Ramirez for Soriano, which is fine, but JS once again way out of his way to overreact and trade our first true first baseman in LaRoche for another closer in Gonzalez with no viable backup plan for LaRoche. I mean, yeah, we had Thormon, who only the Braves organization was clamoring over brining back memories of Klesko. Hmmm, imagine that. Except Thormon was no Klesko and left a gapping hole once again to be patched with 90 year old Julio Franco.
Which lead to the next great JS blunder: another Boras client in Teixera, which I am going to leave it at that.
You decide, JS didn’t make the appropriate moves at the appropriate times to put us over the top. His legacy is tarnished in my mind, and he pigeonholed himselves into too many situations that he could not get out of that ultimately cost this organization a lot in the long run. Good GM, yes, a legacy, No. And ligtening does strike twice because he left the Royals in the same shape at the end of his tenure as well, and they are still trying to recover. To me FW so far has done a much better job under much tighter circumstances and has had a little bad luck.
You decide, and if you want me to I can go indepth on all of Frank’s move if youd like to compare.