School Choice - It's Time

[acesfull86]

https://www.federationforchildren.or...support-soars/

Parents and families have been on a rollercoaster when it comes to K-12 education in the time of COVID-19. A new poll from Real Clear Opinion Research finds overall support for school choice is increasing as parents need more options than ever.

Major findings:

– 71% of voters back school choice. This is the highest level of support ever recorded from major AFC national polling with a sample size above 800 voters.

– 65% support parents having access to a portion of per-pupil funding to use for home, virtual, or private education if public schools don’t reopen full-time for in-person classes.

Question: School Choice

School choice gives parents the right to use the tax dollars designated for their child’s education to send their child to the public or private school which best serves their child’s needs. Generally speaking, would you say you support or oppose the concept of school choice?

Support:

All: 71%

Race & Ethnicity:

White: 73%
Black: 66%
Hispanic: 68%
Asian: 66%

Party ID:

Democrat: 69%
Republican: 75%

-------------------------

School choice, voucher systems, charter schools...give us more of everything. Whenever they're tried, they're popular, and that popularity is holds across ethnic, political, and class lines. Mor importantly, whenever they're tried, outcomes improve.

We had laughably poor re-opening policies in public schools across the country. We have concerns over CRT and more generally what schools should/shouldn't teach to students. We have longstanding concerns over inequities between students of color vs white and Asian students (and not just as students...inequities in future earnings and other standard of life measures). We have public school districts in parts of the country eliminating honors/accelerated programs and/or lowering standards as a way to try to get more equitable outcomes.

All of these things are bad...all of them are potentially solvable if we give parents more agency and more options in where they send their kids to school. Make these institutions compete and inject more accountability into the system.

We have school choice for all schooling before kindergarten, we have it for all schooling after 12th grade....now's the time to have it for all K-12 education.

[nsacpi]

There is a lot of good research that shows competition in education leads to better outcomes. Stakeholders in every field hate competition. But their customers benefit yugely from it. Time to put the children first.

[sturg33]

Why do we suppose dem politicians and teacher unions are so opposed?

[Jaw]

Because it's racist.

[sturg33]

Because it's racist.

Its just funny bc literally every policy they espouse is designed to keep people back.

Easier to coerce their votes that way

[McCann'sCans]

It is an interesting conversation because- unlike most political discourse in 2021- there is a little bit less monolithic groupthink and a little bit more room for nuance. The numbers above would suggest that a very large majority of Americans from both parties and all walks of life approve of choice, but if you cut a little bit deeper they want it for different reasons.

I'd be in the pro-school choice camp, but I also think you have to specify what that actually means. For me, invest heavily in charter schools and magnet schools to create competition for public schools, which probably also need additional investment. As stated above, competition is generally a good thing. A caveat that we need to do a better job with transparency and oversight of charter schools- too many cases all over the country of charter school fraud and mismanagement that end up being a very quick and very large waste of federal funds.

I would also come down in favor of vouchers, but we need to be careful about who is eligible and continue to monitor the impact- results out of DC and a handful of other states aren't particularly promising from an outcomes standpoint. It would seem everyone here agrees that a voucher can be a good opportunity for a poor family to have some optionality and send their kids away from what might be a failing public school in their district. However, we don't need to be spending money that could be spent to help those schools to instead help families who can otherwise afford school choice already.

I would imagine that anyone who was angry about wasteful spending when covid relief checks were going to families earning up to $150,000 would also be angry about wasteful spending when some states are providing $6,000/kid education vouchers to families making up to $145,000.

[thethe]

Spending money on policies that promote stronger families is always a good expenditure.

The reason many were upset about the relief checks is because their need was there because many states would not open up despite the science saying otherwise. I’m not aware of anyone that was against the initial relief bills just like there were few if any who were against the original lockdown decision.

[nsacpi]

Vouchers are a way to break through the de facto segregation that exists in many places.

Not the only way, and quite possibly not the best way. They should certainly be accompanied by other measures such as adding to the stock of affordable housing within good school districts.

[acesfull86]

Vouchers are a way to break through the de facto segregation that exists in many places.

Not the only way, and quite possibly not the best way. They should certainly be accompanied by other measures such as adding to the stock of affordable housing within good school districts.

This might be hyperbolic, and I'm probably biased, but I think this is the civil rights issue of our time, and not enough people are talking about it.

[acesfull86]

https://www.aei.org/carpe-diem/anima...-1970-to-2018/

^ Public school enrollment is up 11.3% from 1970 to 2018. In that time, the number of teachers is up 57%, non-teaching staff is up 152%, and inflation-adjusted spending per pupil is up 156%. And despite all that, learning outcomes are flat...at best.

I hear the criticisms against voucher systems, charter schools, etc., but I think we need to avoid comparing those alternatives against some idealized version of perfect public schooling, and instead compare them against the system we've actually had for the last 50 years. I'm concerned about potential waste, fraud, and a lack of transparency, but quite frankly, what do we have right now? The bumps in the road will be worth it, IMO.

[nsacpi]

This might be hyperbolic, and I'm probably biased, but I think this is the civil rights issue of our time, and not enough people are talking about it.

The county I live has a couple towns that are mostly or virtually all minority. Give those parents school vouchers, but also give them some housing alternatives in the wealthier towns. It's a tough sell.

[sturg33]

Why do we suppose dem politicians and teacher unions are so opposed?

I'll bump to ask our lefty friends again

[nsacpi]

I'll bump to ask our lefty friends again

the teachers part is self-evident...stakeholders don't like competition, in all sorts of fields including education and medicine

we also allow public sector unions to make campaign contributions...that seems like an obvious thing that should be changed

it should be noted, however, that in spite of that teacher's unions are not all-powerful...they have a very long losing streak in New York City in which the candidate they have backed for mayor has lost out...New York City has charter schools...the unions keep trying to kill them but haven't been able to...Bloomberg pushed through a major reform over their opposition...so even with campaign contributions from a powerful union, New Yorkers generally recognize that what the teachers want doesn't necessarily coincide with what is best for their children

i'm also familiar with a school district in California where my older children went to school...the teachers and teachers union in that district are remarkably public spirited...i can't think of a thing to complain about in regards to what went on in that school district...the teachers took a significant pay cut in the 2007-2008 crisis...the negotiations weren't even contentious...everyone pulled together

[sturg33]

They somehow managed to get the CDC to change their covid recommendations though

[sturg33]

More money.

This time it will work!!

[sturg33]

the teachers part is self-evident...stakeholders don't like competition, in all sorts of fields including education and medicine

we also allow public sector unions to make campaign contributions...that seems like an obvious thing that should be changed

it should be noted, however, that in spite of that teacher's unions are not all-powerful...they have a very long losing streak in New York City in which the candidate they have backed for mayor has lost out...New York City has charter schools...the unions keep trying to kill them but haven't been able to...Bloomberg pushed through a major reform over their opposition...so even with campaign contributions from a powerful union, New Yorkers generally recognize that what the teachers want doesn't necessarily coincide with what is best for their children

i'm also familiar with a school district in California where my older children went to school...the teachers and teachers union in that district are remarkably public spirited...i can't think of a thing to complain about in regards to what went on in that school district...the teachers took a significant pay cut in the 2007-2008 crisis...the negotiations weren't even contentious...everyone pulled together

It is refreshing that you admit that teacher unions and dem politicians couldn't give two ****s about student success

[nsacpi]

The issue of school choice by the way is very much a socioeconomic one. Families with the means exercise school choice in a variety of ways. They can choose private schools. They can choose the town or neighborhood they live in to get the school they want for their children. Their children are overrepresented in magnet and charter schools.

Children in disadvantaged families have very few of those choices.

[nsacpi]

It is refreshing that you admit that teacher unions and dem politicians couldn't give two ****s about student success

i don't think i said that

but generally people look out for #1...goes for doctors, teachers and politicians of all parties

[sturg33]

Children in disadvantaged families have very few of those choices.

Especially when the govt doesn't allow them to

[nsacpi]

Especially when the govt doesn't allow them to

absolutely...politicians as recently as the last election promised to protect suburban moms from the bogeyman...we all know what that was all about

for those who need it spelled out a bit more explicitly: