Official CBA Negotiation Thread

[jpx7]

The pro business slant coming from the middle class during labor negotiations always makes me chuckle. It is always followed by the spewing of misused cliches like “supply and demand”.

We’ve just witnessed how much even a small amount of collectiveness can benefit labor, and some folks are still dense enough to consider employers the heroes.

I've come to learn that some folks just genuinely enjoy the taste of boot.

[Southcack77]

The pro business slant coming from the middle class during labor negotiations always makes me chuckle. It is always followed by the spewing of misused cliches like “supply and demand”.

We’ve just witnessed how much even a small amount of collectiveness can benefit labor, and some folks are still dense enough to consider employers the heroes.

Not really sure why the middle class, which I equate to blue collar workers, should care about whether the minimum salary for someone who plays a game for a living is 400k or 600k.


Now you want to talk about the auto workers or steel workers unions or even the damn hospitality unions representing folks who work hard for an increasingly smaller part of the American dream and get villainized by crackers who just want to use the opportunity to snatch their jobs by undercutting them, then I'm starting to feel you.

Unions were a good part of class fluidity that brought about dramatic generational change.

From coal mine to MD in one or two generations. Good luck with that now.

[The Chosen One]

We should just go back to the days where the teams owned the rights to players and no free agency.

[Jaw]

I have an idea that makes sides winner. Owners give an additional 50% of profit to players, BUT the players can only spend their salaries at the stores of a company owned by the MLB owners! We'll call it "The Company Store."

[MadduxFanII]

I have an idea that makes sides winner. Owners give an additional 50% of profit to players, BUT the players can only spend their salaries at the stores of a company owned by the MLB owners! We'll call it "The Company Store."

Quiet. You just gave Jerry Reinsdorf an erection, and it's scaring him.

[DirkPiggler]

Not really sure why the middle class, which I equate to blue collar workers, should care about whether the minimum salary for someone who plays a game for a living is 400k or 600k.


Now you want to talk about the auto workers or steel workers unions or even the damn hospitality unions representing folks who work hard for an increasingly smaller part of the American dream and get villainized by crackers who just want to use the opportunity to snatch their jobs by undercutting them, then I'm starting to feel you.

Unions were a good part of class fluidity that brought about dramatic generational change.

From coal mine to MD in one or two generations. Good luck with that now.

People should never blindly take either side in a labor dispute without looking at the facts of the individual case, or at the overall state of the economy.

The pendulum swings back and forth as to which side has the upper hand. Unions came about because management was abusing their workforce, and helped create fair opportunities and a thriving middle class. Then the power swung too far to the labor side, the economy started to suffer, and management got the upper hand again. We're towards the end of a cycle where management has had free rein for too long, and labor is likely about to make a comeback. If history holds true, and it always does, labor will once again go too far at some point and things will swing back again.

[DirkPiggler]

I have an idea that makes sides winner. Owners give an additional 50% of profit to players, BUT the players can only spend their salaries at the stores of a company owned by the MLB owners! We'll call it "The Company Store."

Funny, but if you read the fine print of many of the contracts there is actually some of this going on today.

Just about every new free agent signing has "Pedro has agreed to donate $1MM per year of his contract to the Expos Foundation." Names, amounts, and teams vary of course.

[MadduxFanII]

Funny, but if you read the fine print of many of the contracts there is actually some of this going on today.

Just about every new free agent signing has "Pedro has agreed to donate $1MM per year of his contract to the Expos Foundation." Names, amounts, and teams vary of course.

I'm curious what the Expos Foundation looks like. Just a sad little storefront on a Montreal side street where you can spend $5 and toss a few darts at a picture of Jeffrey Loria?

[Garmel]

People should never blindly take either side in a labor dispute without looking at the facts of the individual case, or at the overall state of the economy.

The pendulum swings back and forth as to which side has the upper hand. Unions came about because management was abusing their workforce, and helped create fair opportunities and a thriving middle class. Then the power swung too far to the labor side, the economy started to suffer, and management got the upper hand again. We're towards the end of a cycle where management has had free rein for too long, and labor is likely about to make a comeback. If history holds true, and it always does, labor will once again go too far at some point and things will swing back again.

Finally, a voice of reason. We need a balance of power between the two. There are no good or bad guys, just two sides trying to get the best deal that they can.

[SJ24]

Hey Scheff- I’m not trying to start an argument, and I agree that S/D is misused. But in my case- I am well versed in economics and economic theory - it applies as it is intended here.
And I do consider the men and women who have launched major businesses and corporations to be heroes.
To each his own.

Exactly.

Walmart employs North of 2 million people.

That's incredible. Sam Walton is more important to our way of life than any mendacious politician.

Enscheff is an absolute baseball mastermind, but his level of economic expertise (admittedly I haven't seen MUCH) definitely leans towards "****lib"

[SJ24]

I've come to learn that some folks just genuinely enjoy the taste of boot.

Oh boot is absolutely delicious.

America has 4 trillion dollar (IIRC) companies with more on the way.

Land of milk and honey.

[jpx7]

Exactly.

Walmart employs North of 2 million people.

That's incredible. Sam Walton is more important to our way of life than any mendacious politician.

And the vast majority of them are so under-compensated that they form one of the largest user-pools of government services. Walmart couldn't exist without government-sponsored social safety-nets, withered as they sadly are.

Oh boot is absolutely delicious.

America has 4 trillion dollar (IIRC) companies with more on the way.

Land of milk and honey.

Milk and honey for the few. Bread and circus (and piss-bottles) for the many.

At least you admit you're a bootlicker. There's something to be said for self-knowledge.

[SJ24]

Milk and honey for the few. Bread and circus (and piss-bottles) for the many.
.

Ehh, that's not true.

Most everyone I know has at least a home, a car, a flat screen TV, and an iphone.

Even those you would consider "poor"

The vast majority do not go hungry, which beats the hell out of most countries/people in world history.

And I live in a "poor" Southern state.

[DirkPiggler]

And the vast majority of them are so under-compensated that they form one of the largest user-pools of government services. Walmart couldn't exist without government-sponsored social safety-nets, withered as they sadly are.

Granted, my personal experience working there is from years ago, but based on what I've seen first hand your statement above is false.

The average Walmart worker today earns $16.40 per hour. Not great by any standard, but you have to consider that pretty much everyone working there is unskilled, and has no formal job training.

When I worked there, they started everyone at slightly above minimum wage, but as long as you showed up most of the time and didn't do anything to get fired (steal, insult customers, show up drunk, etc), you got regular raises at 90 days, six months, one year, then annually after that. They didn't manipulate anyone's hours that I saw to keep them under full-time. Their health insurance plan was good and inexpensive...let's just say I wish I could get insurance today for roughly 4% of my income. And you only had to average 28 hours per week to be eligible for it. They added 15% to any WMT stock you bought as well. My pay went up over 30 percent in the year and a half that I was there, and while I think I was a good employee, I was no superstar by any means.

There were people I worked with at Walmart who never earned a penny over $6 per hour in their lives who retired with over half a million dollars, and this was in the early 1990s. If you showed any ambition or ability at all they were eager to promote from within. Hell, the current CEO of Walmart U.S. is the guy who was hired to replace me when I quit after college, and he's married to a lady I worked with there for nearly two years.

None of this takes into account the effects that cheap availability of products has in helping the poor. Of course that comes with a cost...buying goods produced overseas costs American factory jobs. Walmart coming into small towns forces closure of locally owned small businesses who can't compete on price, but it also enables the poor in those areas to get goods and groceries much more cheaply. There is no free lunch either way.

[SJ24]

Granted, my personal experience working there is from years ago, but based on what I've seen first hand your statement above is false.

The average Walmart worker today earns $16.40 per hour. Not great by any standard, but you have to consider that pretty much everyone working there is unskilled, and has no formal job training.

When I worked there, they started everyone at slightly above minimum wage, but as long as you showed up most of the time and didn't do anything to get fired (steal, insult customers, show up drunk, etc), you got regular raises at 90 days, six months, one year, then annually after that. They didn't manipulate anyone's hours that I saw to keep them under full-time. Their health insurance plan was good and inexpensive...let's just say I wish I could get insurance today for roughly 4% of my income. And you only had to average 28 hours per week to be eligible for it. They added 15% to any WMT stock you bought as well. My pay went up over 30 percent in the year and a half that I was there, and while I think I was a good employee, I was no superstar by any means.

There were people I worked with at Walmart who never earned a penny over $6 per hour in their lives who retired with over half a million dollars, and this was in the early 1990s. If you showed any ambition or ability at all they were eager to promote from within. Hell, the current CEO of Walmart U.S. is the guy who was hired to replace me when I quit after college, and he's married to a lady I worked with there for nearly two years.

None of this takes into account the effects that cheap availability of products has in helping the poor. Of course that comes with a cost...buying goods produced overseas costs American factory jobs. Walmart coming into small towns forces closure of locally owned small businesses who can't compete on price, but it also enables the poor in those areas to get goods and groceries much more cheaply. There is no free lunch either way.

Awesome post. America is a great country.

Many often lose perspective.

Especially those with very comfortable lives.

[Tapate50]

Granted, my personal experience working there is from years ago, but based on what I've seen first hand your statement above is false.

The average Walmart worker today earns $16.40 per hour. Not great by any standard, but you have to consider that pretty much everyone working there is unskilled, and has no formal job training.

When I worked there, they started everyone at slightly above minimum wage, but as long as you showed up most of the time and didn't do anything to get fired (steal, insult customers, show up drunk, etc), you got regular raises at 90 days, six months, one year, then annually after that. They didn't manipulate anyone's hours that I saw to keep them under full-time. Their health insurance plan was good and inexpensive...let's just say I wish I could get insurance today for roughly 4% of my income. And you only had to average 28 hours per week to be eligible for it. They added 15% to any WMT stock you bought as well. My pay went up over 30 percent in the year and a half that I was there, and while I think I was a good employee, I was no superstar by any means.

There were people I worked with at Walmart who never earned a penny over $6 per hour in their lives who retired with over half a million dollars, and this was in the early 1990s. If you showed any ambition or ability at all they were eager to promote from within. Hell, the current CEO of Walmart U.S. is the guy who was hired to replace me when I quit after college, and he's married to a lady I worked with there for nearly two years.

None of this takes into account the effects that cheap availability of products has in helping the poor. Of course that comes with a cost...buying goods produced overseas costs American factory jobs. Walmart coming into small towns forces closure of locally owned small businesses who can't compete on price, but it also enables the poor in those areas to get goods and groceries much more cheaply. There is no free lunch either way.

Thanks. Lot of people consider them low hanging fruit to pile on when they don’t know but one narrative

[Jaw]

Granted, my personal experience working there is from years ago, but based on what I've seen first hand your statement above is false.

The average Walmart worker today earns $16.40 per hour. Not great by any standard, but you have to consider that pretty much everyone working there is unskilled, and has no formal job training.

When I worked there, they started everyone at slightly above minimum wage, but as long as you showed up most of the time and didn't do anything to get fired (steal, insult customers, show up drunk, etc), you got regular raises at 90 days, six months, one year, then annually after that. They didn't manipulate anyone's hours that I saw to keep them under full-time. Their health insurance plan was good and inexpensive...let's just say I wish I could get insurance today for roughly 4% of my income. And you only had to average 28 hours per week to be eligible for it. They added 15% to any WMT stock you bought as well. My pay went up over 30 percent in the year and a half that I was there, and while I think I was a good employee, I was no superstar by any means.

There were people I worked with at Walmart who never earned a penny over $6 per hour in their lives who retired with over half a million dollars, and this was in the early 1990s. If you showed any ambition or ability at all they were eager to promote from within. Hell, the current CEO of Walmart U.S. is the guy who was hired to replace me when I quit after college, and he's married to a lady I worked with there for nearly two years.

None of this takes into account the effects that cheap availability of products has in helping the poor. Of course that comes with a cost...buying goods produced overseas costs American factory jobs. Walmart coming into small towns forces closure of locally owned small businesses who can't compete on price, but it also enables the poor in those areas to get goods and groceries much more cheaply. There is no free lunch either way.

Nice post To play devil's advocate a little bit, back in the 90s when you're talking about I had family in Podunk Appalachia start factory jobs right out of high school making $16 hour. As you said, those are gone now, but $16 in 1995 is equivalent to $29 today. And I knew folks working at Roses, Sky City, and Kmart department stores selling lots of American made products prior to the Wall Mart invasion. Those stores are all gone now.

I suppose we're muddying the water now with globalism talk along with labor unions at this point, and I am glad to agree with you that we're in the beginning of a pro labor resurgence.

[jpx7]

Granted, my personal experience working there is from years ago, but based on what I've seen first hand your statement above is false.

The average Walmart worker today earns $16.40 per hour. Not great by any standard, but you have to consider that pretty much everyone working there is unskilled, and has no formal job training.

When I worked there, they started everyone at slightly above minimum wage, but as long as you showed up most of the time and didn't do anything to get fired (steal, insult customers, show up drunk, etc), you got regular raises at 90 days, six months, one year, then annually after that. They didn't manipulate anyone's hours that I saw to keep them under full-time. Their health insurance plan was good and inexpensive...let's just say I wish I could get insurance today for roughly 4% of my income. And you only had to average 28 hours per week to be eligible for it. They added 15% to any WMT stock you bought as well. My pay went up over 30 percent in the year and a half that I was there, and while I think I was a good employee, I was no superstar by any means.

There were people I worked with at Walmart who never earned a penny over $6 per hour in their lives who retired with over half a million dollars, and this was in the early 1990s. If you showed any ambition or ability at all they were eager to promote from within. Hell, the current CEO of Walmart U.S. is the guy who was hired to replace me when I quit after college, and he's married to a lady I worked with there for nearly two years.

None of this takes into account the effects that cheap availability of products has in helping the poor. Of course that comes with a cost...buying goods produced overseas costs American factory jobs. Walmart coming into small towns forces closure of locally owned small businesses who can't compete on price, but it also enables the poor in those areas to get goods and groceries much more cheaply. There is no free lunch either way.

Except the Government Accountability Office released a study confirming what I said, contra your decades-old anecdotal narrative.

A libertarian like sturg would say that such governmental benefits actually allow Walmart to pay people so poorly; if there weren't safety nets to pick up their slack, the market would force them to pay fair wages to cover what the government currently covers. I personally don't believe that—I think a corporate behemoth like Walmart is always going to **** over their labor pool, and so it as absolutely-hard as they can—but there's at least merit to the sturg-style argument I'm outlining.

But do you know what you need to counterbalance avaricious ownership, absent strong state-level controls and governmental safety-nets? A strident union to collectively bargain for workers. Which is exactly what MLBPA is doing for its membership—and what we should want all unions to do for their membership. Hate governmental "overreach"? Then you should love strong unions, because they're the market-based solution to excessive and exploitative corporatism.

[bravesfanMatt]

I don't even get this worker versus employer debate. So if Walmart forms a union and demands raises for the 2 million plus workers, is that supposed to help? Do we not think that Walmart is going to just start raising prices to counter those raises. Which then devalues those raises they just gave. I hate getting into politics here, but it just seems silly to think government or unions can fix things. I mean, unions become power grabs in there own right, working for the interest of a few under the guise of helping many. Government work for the votes that keep them stay in power and line their pockets with more money. The best way to fix the income inequality is to reform our education system and to actually start teaching society technical or vocational skills and life skills. We need to completely rethink how our public schools work. We invest billions into a system and nothing into the students. I have worked as a business owner and as an employee, and it is sad the quality of person that our youth are becoming. The lack of basic life skills is alarming. I asked my son, who is in college, about some basic finance questions and he got some right, but most was what I taught him. there are no classes on budgeting, taxes, bettering ones career, credit and impact of scores, buying versus renting.. So kids growing up who don't have involved parents are going to go through life not knowing anything about these things. And, no, i am not advocating schools replacing parents on raising kids, but there should be some basic classes or opportunities for them to do so.

[DirkPiggler]

Except the Government Accountability Office released a study confirming what I said, contra your decades-old anecdotal narrative.

A libertarian like sturg would say that such governmental benefits actually allow Walmart to pay people so poorly; if there weren't safety nets to pick up their slack, the market would force them to pay fair wages to cover what the government currently covers. I personally don't believe that—I think a corporate behemoth like Walmart is always going to **** over their labor pool, and so it as absolutely-hard as they can—but there's at least merit to the sturg-style argument I'm outlining.

But do you know what you need to counterbalance avaricious ownership, absent strong state-level controls and governmental safety-nets? A strident union to collectively bargain for workers. Which is exactly what MLBPA is doing for its membership—and what we should want all unions to do for their membership. Hate governmental "overreach"? Then you should love strong unions, because they're the market-based solution to excessive and exploitative corporatism.

All I saw from that study (granted I only read the summary) was that Walmart was one of the employers with the greatest number of its workers receiving assistance. I didn't see percentages of their workers receiving aid, nor for that matter any raw numbers. It follows that the largest employer in America would also have a larger number of workers on welfare, or in any group for that matter.

Without getting too political, I will also point out that the study was commissioned by none other than Bernie Sanders...hardly a neutral party in the matter. I look at this as skeptically as I would a study claiming widespread voter fraud commissioned by Marjorie Taylor Greene.

Unions are free to attempt to organize Walmart, or any other employer. Those companies are also free to make the case against organization within the bounds of labor law.