Minimum Wage

[sturg33]

While we're on the subject . . . sturg, you never said much in that thread when you suggested that America was "on the right track" vis a vis capitalism until the early 20th century. In fact, you didn't say anything at all, beyond accusing me of changing the subject. Remember this?


It seemed to be an excellent expression of everything you advocate—workers freely agreeing on the price of their labor without government interference, no regulation, etc. What say you, buddy?

I'm not sure where I stand, to be honest. Obviously I think sweatshops are abhorrent and should be avoided. But I'm also OK with 12-16 year olds working in libraries, schools, dr office, etc for a few bucks. If that makes me a monster, then so be it.

[Oklahomahawk]

I certainly don't agree with all the ways that people take advantage of tax breaks, etc. Part of the reasons that people do that is bc the USA's tax system is totally effed up as it is.

The people that get hurt by Obama are people like me. I have never received a dime in my life. I paid my way through college working full-time at the same time. I was living on my own at age 18. At age 18, I had a rent that I paid for myself along with going to college and having a full-time job plus a part time job or 2 at times. Bc I worked my ass off I was able to get a good job. I made 20k a year for the first 2 years at my company (with a college degree). Put in my hours and finally within the past 5 years have been able to work my way up to a healthy paying job (which Obama thinks I make too much and should pay more out of pocket). Lets go ahead and raise minimum wage (I will end up paying more for supplies), lets impliment obamacare (my healthcare costs are out of control right now-2 kids), and Obama wants to take away some of the advantages of investing in IRAs.

My computer and/or Internet is being beotchy today so I'm going to have to make it quick. I took out part of your post but left the parts that I agree with you on (since our back and forth was getting kinda long), I do feel for people who have worked and now kids are going to make as much as those people are. I also feel the same way about AA's wife and their family business and I said as much last night. In fact I would be fine with small businesses being exempt from this and Obamacare or at least given a lesser dose of it.

If you guys will look back at all my posts in their entirety I don't believe I was one of the big drum beaters for raising the minimum wage, only that I was OK with it in theory. I said mainly that this should not even have to be done, but that the large multinationals have sent so many good paying jobs overseas just to make a few more millions that's what's created this mess, that and all the de-regulations since the 1980's.

Grown men and women at the heads of households should not be working in Fast Food to take care of their family, it was because of the corporate greed that now so many have to, and all of them aren't lazy college dropouts, etc. Once a person has been screw-jobbed by a company then you'll know what I really mean, unfortunately it often takes being the one sport pfooked by these slimeballs to shake us out of our idealistic fog.

[Oklahomahawk]

I'm not sure where I stand, to be honest. Obviously I think sweatshops are abhorrent and should be avoided. But I'm also OK with 12-16 year olds working in libraries, schools, dr office, etc for a few bucks. If that makes me a monster, then so be it.

I actually agree with you on this, in fact as I just told Gilesy the types of jobs you're describing are supposed to be done by kids, young adults. They aren't supposed to be done by adults trying to support families, that is a result of the lack of regulations (at least the right kinds of regulations) and no rules philosophy that has been encouraged by Republicans and conveniently overlooked by Democrats for the last 3 decades. I have to get stuff posted before my computer or Internet kicks me off again, it's in a foul mood tonight.

[Oklahomahawk]

I just don't understand how you think the government should force a company to pay a certain amount for labor - even if that labor isn't worth it (a mentally retarded person, for example, would probably not be worth $10 an hour when they could get a non-mentally retarded person)

Do you want the historical explanation for this, or the moral one, or just the common decency one?? Try to consider this, it isn't JUST the "job creators" who should have rights, I'm not trying to put any exact dollar figure to it, but this whole, if you don't like the way company A is treating and/or paying you just go down the street to Company B. That's just Repub-speak for "just be glad the good people let the rest of you live in the same country with them". It's also cherry picking your facts and your morality just to prove your point right and the other side wrong. you're better than that.

You act like eliminating the minimum wage will allow companies to start paying $1/hr. Who the hell would work for $1 and hour? You act like a decrease in minimum wage is also a decrease in workers self-worth. It's not. If someone offered me a job for $1 an hour, I'd just go to the street corent and make $20 in that same hour. Businesses will still have to meet the demands of the labor market.

Haven't you said as much, or at least close to it? haven't I heard you claim that it was the damn "minimum wage" that kept some companies from paying more? I apologize in advance if I am falsely associating you with something you didn't say, but I know I've read it here from more than one person.

.

[AerchAngel]

If they do this and if it gets down to our level, my wife will not be hiring people (usually students at the university) to help with taxes or bookwork. I will be doing it, UGH!

[Oklahomahawk]

As long as they don't turn into Cylons (having personal model #6 would be fine though :))/Geth/Asurans/Terminators or Replicators, we will be fine.

I don't know that one blonde cylon chick was kinda hot.

[AerchAngel]

.

I don't agree with Sturg on this.

If you eliminate it altogether, the illegals, Indians from India or any 3rd world country immigrants will undercut any American for that job. They are doing it with the standards today, even in high salary positions.

Until we can stop all foreigners from coming in and undercutting us, this is a bad situation all around.

[AerchAngel]

I don't know that one blonde cylon chick was kinda hot.

Exactly.

[Oklahomahawk]

No. See, I'm not the one assigning a "worth" to a human being. That's what you're doing. You saying a worker is "worth" x/hr. I'm saying that he is worth whatever he and the employer mutually agree to.

This is wrong on so many levels I don't even know where to begin. First of all it isn't me who's assigning a "worth" to a human being, it's you who says their employer should have the right to un-assign that worth to a human being by paying them like it was 1910. If it was really a free market and there were plenty of companies out there and if they were very well aware of what everybody else was paying and well you get the message.

"Lunch Pail Fathers" anyone???

[AerchAngel]

This is wrong on so many levels I don't even know where to begin. First of all it isn't me who's assigning a "worth" to a human being, it's you who says their employer should have the right to un-assign that worth to a human being by paying them like it was 1910. If it was really a free market and there were plenty of companies out there and if they were very well aware of what everybody else was paying and well you get the message.

"Lunch Pail Fathers" anyone???

<cough> COLLUSION <cough>

End of story and argument about no minimum wage. They even do that today.

[Oklahomahawk]

I don't agree with Sturg on this.

If you eliminate it altogether, the illegals, Indians from India or any 3rd world country immigrants will undercut any American for that job. They are doing it with the standards today, even in high salary positions.

Until we can stop all foreigners from coming in and undercutting us, this is a bad situation all around.

Like I said most of the problem goes back to Ronnie letting big business and big money to run roughshod over the working class of people he claimed to love so much. Now things are so far out of control it's just a big cluster-pfark. I'm not in favor of paying some 16 year old kid $15 for asking if I want fries with that, but there are people trying to work and do the right thing and they work full time and qualify for food stamps. That's not right either.

Repubs, where was your outrage when defense contractors and savings and loans (obscene sexual comment)ed the American people under Reagan and Bush41? If you REALLY to know why we got involved in Kuwait and with the Bush family whipping boy Saddam all you have to do is google Silverado Savings and Loan and start reading the names involved. It won't take long to see a very familiar last name in the group. Where were you when W let Frank, Dodd, and a whole bunch of Wall Street types do the same thing to us from 2000-2008 because they didn't notice cause their buddies were getting rich from wars and more de-regulation?

Democrats, I know you see all this crap going on, you talk about it all the time, you make your damn talking points every other breath, why don't you DO something about it? Is this like the Repubs using the abortion issue to get votes and donations knowing damn well they will NEVER do anything about it and Christians are too blindly loyal to ever make them pay for their lies and duplicity? Dems if you want me to REALLY think you're any better, stand up!! Show me!!!

I know we all get lost in ideology sometimes, myself at the top of the list, but these are Americans who are working their arses off, trying to survive and not be the first generation in over 200 years to tell their kids they can't have the American dream, it got outsourced to India...

[Oklahomahawk]

<cough> COLLUSION <cough>

End of story and argument about no minimum wage. They even do that today.

Do you think companies will start paying more than $7.25/hour if the minimum wage is done away with, ala President Bachmann? Sorry Vol, couldn't resist.

I shouldn't say too much though, I'll bet half the people on this board can't/won't still can't see that the oil and gas game is as rigged as it gets. They still think it's just free market economics at work.

[AerchAngel]

Like I said most of the problem goes back to Ronnie letting big business and big money to run roughshod over the working class of people he claimed to love so much. Now things are so far out of control it's just a big cluster-pfark. I'm not in favor of paying some 16 year old kid $15 for asking if I want fries with that, but there are people trying to work and do the right thing and they work full time and qualify for food stamps. That's not right either.

Repubs, where was your outrage when defense contractors and savings and loans (obscene sexual comment)ed the American people under Reagan and Bush41? If you REALLY to know why we got involved in Kuwait and with the Bush family whipping boy Saddam all you have to do is google Silverado Savings and Loan and start reading the names involved. It won't take long to see a very familiar last name in the group. Where were you when W let Frank, Dodd, and a whole bunch of Wall Street types do the same thing to us from 2000-2008 because they didn't notice cause their buddies were getting rich from wars and more de-regulation?

Democrats, I know you see all this crap going on, you talk about it all the time, you make your damn talking points every other breath, why don't you DO something about it? Is this like the Repubs using the abortion issue to get votes and donations knowing damn well they will NEVER do anything about it and Christians are too blindly loyal to ever make them pay for their lies and duplicity? Dems if you want me to REALLY think you're any better, stand up!! Show me!!!

I know we all get lost in ideology sometimes, myself at the top of the list, but these are Americans who are working their arses off, trying to survive and not be the first generation in over 200 years to tell their kids they can't have the American dream, it got outsourced to India...

I wish I can THANK YOU 1000 times.

PREACH BROTHER, you spoke the truth.

Best post I have seen in a long while. I agree with you 1000 percent.

[AerchAngel]

Do you think companies will start paying more than $7.25/hour if the minimum wage is done away with, ala President Bachmann? Sorry Vol, couldn't resist.

I shouldn't say too much though, I'll bet half the people on this board can't/won't still can't see that the oil and gas game is as rigged as it gets. They still think it's just free market economics at work.

yep idiots.

I agree.

[sturg33]

I don't agree with Sturg on this.

If you eliminate it altogether, the illegals, Indians from India or any 3rd world country immigrants will undercut any American for that job. They are doing it with the standards today, even in high salary positions.

Until we can stop all foreigners from coming in and undercutting us, this is a bad situation all around.

I think you have it backwards… the reason illegals can take our jobs today is because they are willing to work for much less. American's aren't allowed to work for less than $7.25 an hour

[sturg33]

Do you think companies will start paying more than $7.25/hour if the minimum wage is done away with, ala President Bachmann? Sorry Vol, couldn't resist.

I shouldn't say too much though, I'll bet half the people on this board can't/won't still can't see that the oil and gas game is as rigged as it gets. They still think it's just free market economics at work.

I personally don't care. I am in favor of protecting individual liberty and when a bureaucrat FORCES a business to pay an employee a certain amount, I have a problem with it.

You guys want to raise the minimum wage? Fine. Good bye mom and pop stores. Hello expansion of Walmart. Walmart can afford the increase, your local shop can't.

[sturg33]

This is wrong on so many levels I don't even know where to begin. First of all it isn't me who's assigning a "worth" to a human being, it's you who says their employer should have the right to un-assign that worth to a human being by paying them like it was 1910. If it was really a free market and there were plenty of companies out there and if they were very well aware of what everybody else was paying and well you get the message.

"Lunch Pail Fathers" anyone???

No. I'm not applying worth to anybody. You keep trying to say I am. But I'm saying it's up to the individual to decide his worth. The government applies worth to individuals by enforcing a minimum wage

[sturg33]

I just don't understand how you think the government should force a company to pay a certain amount for labor - even if that labor isn't worth it (a mentally retarded person, for example, would probably not be worth $10 an hour when they could get a non-mentally retarded person)

Do you want the historical explanation for this, or the moral one, or just the common decency one?? Try to consider this, it isn't JUST the "job creators" who should have rights, I'm not trying to put any exact dollar figure to it, but this whole, if you don't like the way company A is treating and/or paying you just go down the street to Company B. That's just Repub-speak for "just be glad the good people let the rest of you live in the same country with them". It's also cherry picking your facts and your morality just to prove your point right and the other side wrong. you're better than that.

You act like eliminating the minimum wage will allow companies to start paying $1/hr. Who the hell would work for $1 and hour? You act like a decrease in minimum wage is also a decrease in workers self-worth. It's not. If someone offered me a job for $1 an hour, I'd just go to the street corent and make $20 in that same hour. Businesses will still have to meet the demands of the labor market.

Haven't you said as much, or at least close to it? haven't I heard you claim that it was the damn "minimum wage" that kept some companies from paying more? I apologize in advance if I am falsely associating you with something you didn't say, but I know I've read it here from more than one person.

Give me the historical, moral, and the command decency explanation, if you don't mind. Tell me why a completely unskilled worker is worth the same amount as a skilled worker.

And yes, I do believe that the minimum wages does decrease wages on certain people. It's very easy for a company to say "you're a cashier. We pay cashiers minimum wage" rather than actually assign value to that person. Of course, it can and should work the other way as well

[AerchAngel]

I think you have it backwards… the reason illegals can take our jobs today is because they are willing to work for much less. American's aren't allowed to work for less than $7.25 an hour

Why would they?

The illegals can cram 20 people in a 1000 square foot house and be happy by pooling their resources by working $2.00 an hour. Do you think Americans would go for that?

[sturg33]

Why would they?

The illegals can cram 20 people in a 1000 square foot house and be happy by pooling their resources by working $2.00 an hour. Do you think Americans would go for that?

No. And when you raise the minimum wage, that will just beg for more illegals, no?