Spencer Strider

[The Chosen One]

Seaver, Blyleven, Feller, Palmer were all "old timers" that routinely pitched around 300 innings, not including playoffs. And more recently you have most of the 80's and 90's guys like Carlton, Jack Morris, RJ, Clemens, Schilling, Pedro. And even guys who had TJS like Smoltz and Gooden were in their 30's before they got injured.

There is certainly a disconnect between eras. Maybe it's more sliders/curves. Maybe it's the throwing style. Maybe current pitchers are trying to hard to get spin. Maybe more rest isn't as beneficial as we think. Maybe it's all just coincidental. But I don't agree with the notion that guys now simply throw faster now.

Check out Verlander's thoughts yesterday when asked about the recent injury bug to pitchers.

He gives some good thought out points.

[Carp]

Bring back the sticky stuff, imo.

[Slippyjms]

Seaver, Blyleven, Feller, Palmer were all "old timers" that routinely pitched around 300 innings, not including playoffs. And more recently you have most of the 80's and 90's guys like Carlton, Jack Morris, RJ, Clemens, Schilling, Pedro. And even guys who had TJS like Smoltz and Gooden were in their 30's before they got injured.

There is certainly a disconnect between eras. Maybe it's more sliders/curves. Maybe it's the throwing style. Maybe current pitchers are trying to hard to get spin. Maybe more rest isn't as beneficial as we think. Maybe it's all just coincidental. But I don't agree with the notion that guys now simply throw faster now.

Pitchers now throw at 100% every pitch. It used to be more 80-85% with the occasional 100% pitch mixed in.

[Hudson2]

Bring back Leo Mazzone’s throwing program.

[The Chosen One]

Pitchers now throw at 100% every pitch. It used to be more 80-85% with the occasional 100% pitch mixed in.

in addition, hitters are very good at working the count and fouling off tough pitches now. Technology has helped both hitters and pitchers.

pitchers with spin rates, tunneling, pitch sequencing, etc.

hitters with analytics on which counts to jump on, working counts. Pitches per plate appearance. Walks are not only more accepted than they were 25 years ago they’re embraced thanks to the OBP movement.

[50PoundHead]

Bring back Leo Mazzone’s throwing program.

Outside of Smoltz (who ended up having arm surgery), most of the guys in Leo's program were not hard-throwers. As slippy said above, it's high effort all the time and if there is any quirk in the delivery, that's probably going to lead to surgery.

Nolan Ryan was mentioned earlier in the thread and if you go back and look at old video of him, you'd never believe how hard he was throwing. Granted, he was a unicorn of sorts, but the massive effort being generated through trunk torque or arm extension is going to blow out an arm.

[50PoundHead]

in addition, hitters are very good at working the count and fouling off tough pitches now. Technology has helped both hitters and pitchers.

pitchers with spin rates, tunneling, pitch sequencing, etc.

hitters with analytics on which counts to jump on, working counts. Pitches per plate appearance. Walks are not only more accepted than they were 25 years ago they’re embraced thanks to the OBP movement.

Hitters have gotten much stronger and that has affected pitchers' approach. I don't know if it's still on the highlight page, but O'Neill Cruz hit one out to the opposite field over the weekend and when he left the batters' box, he thought it was an easy play for the LF. He looked as shocked as anyone when it went out. Pitchers used to be able to work outer half on power hitters in hopes that the batter would still try to pull the ball. That doesn't work anymore as strong guys with decent launch angles can deposit those pitches to the opposite field.

Velocity and spin rate are the surest way to get swing-and-miss.

[cajunrevenge]

There is a new thing with using an internal brace on the UCL. It has a 6-7 month recovery time. Given this is likely Strider's second torn UCL I wonder if that might be an option for him. Given that he was still throwing 94 I am hopefully its not a fully torn UCL which might make him a better candidate for the brace. That would have him back in time to start next year.

[jpx7]

Bring back the sticky stuff, imo.

I think this is a non-trivial element of the recent further uptick we’ve seen in TJs.

[Hulavol]

Pitch clock correlates …. And sticky stuff getting banned…. Just sayin’ ….

[bravesnumberone]

More and more pitchers hitting the IL. Wondering if there's something going on with the baseballs.

[GovClintonTyree]

I tend to agree. Fried doesn't throw as hard and does have a height advantage for leverage, but he throws a ton of breaking balls.

Properly thrown breaking balls do not cause arm problems.

Max effort does.

[Slippyjms]

Pitch clock correlates …. And sticky stuff getting banned…. Just sayin’ ….

Correlation does not equal causation. Have we heard from a doctor yet that either of these are medically relevant? I get the MLBPA has complained but they are also looking for negotiation leverage.

[thewupk]

Hitters have gotten much stronger and that has affected pitchers' approach. I don't know if it's still on the highlight page, but O'Neill Cruz hit one out to the opposite field over the weekend and when he left the batters' box, he thought it was an easy play for the LF. He looked as shocked as anyone when it went out. Pitchers used to be able to work outer half on power hitters in hopes that the batter would still try to pull the ball. That doesn't work anymore as strong guys with decent launch angles can deposit those pitches to the opposite field.

Velocity and spin rate are the surest way to get swing-and-miss.

I agree. Some fans may have a hard time coming to terms with this but todays hitters would feast on most pitchers from previous eras. Contact pitching just isn't going to work on a consistant basis.

[The Chosen One]

Properly thrown breaking balls do not cause arm problems.

Max effort does.

Doesn't arm speed on breaking balls have to get close/match arm speed on fastballs?

Smoltz said he threw his slider and splitter with the same arm speed as his fastball, which is why he got so much tilt/velo on his. In order to increase spin rate, you have to increase arm speed/max effort. And Fried's spin rates on his curve are usually ranked near the top in MLB. He also happens to throw a 95-98 mph 4-seamer.

Some big leaguers think that teaching little leaguers curveballs at such an early age and trying to optimize their mechanics in their teens to throw harder and harder is also contributing. The curveball thing has been said though for many years before this injury plague came about.

[cajunrevenge]

They try to throw everything with the same arm speed. Otherwise it telegraphs to the hitter when they are throwing the FB. This is also why the change up can be hard for some pitchers. Anyone can just throw less hard but the key is to do it with the same arm speed. That's why some pitchers have a good change but they telegraph it with slower arm speed and hitters tee off on it.

[The Chosen One]

They try to throw everything with the same arm speed. Otherwise it telegraphs to the hitter when they are throwing the FB. This is also why the change up can be hard for some pitchers. Anyone can just throw less hard but the key is to do it with the same arm speed. That's why some pitchers have a good change but they telegraph it with slower arm speed and hitters tee off on it.

Right, so if guys are throwing max effort fastballs, they're throwing max effort breaking balls too.

Strider rebuilt his mechanics post-Clemson TJ to have more leg drive to help him build up more velo than he had in college. The result is his arm still couldn't handle the mechanics. Pitching is just a violent motion. I do think the bigger issue might be, kids have a lot of mileage on their arms from a younger age going into high school-college. And with baseball being year round, their arms really never get time to rest.

Verlander said he didn't develop velocity until college. But scouts are now always looking for the young teens who already throw as hard as Verlander did in college.

[cajunrevenge]

I think the solution is to force kids to learn to pitch with both arms then they can switch between them while the other is recovering from TJ.

[50PoundHead]

Right, so if guys are throwing max effort fastballs, they're throwing max effort breaking balls too.

Strider rebuilt his mechanics post-Clemson TJ to have more leg drive to help him build up more velo than he had in college. The result is his arm still couldn't handle the mechanics. Pitching is just a violent motion. I do think the bigger issue might be, kids have a lot of mileage on their arms from a younger age going into high school-college. And with baseball being year round, their arms really never get time to rest.

Verlander said he didn't develop velocity until college. But scouts are now always looking for the young teens who already throw as hard as Verlander did in college.

Good point that isn't mentioned much, if at all. Check the scouting reports on all of the top pitching prospects in recent baseball drafts. Velocity is often the first thing mentioned. A kid throwing mid-to-high 90s before he's fully developed physically has probably put undue strain on both his arm and body.

[striker42]

With so many top pitchers going down I have to think it's only a matter of time before someone signs Bauer.