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    Religious Right in Arizona Cheer bill that allows them to not act like Jesus would...

    Religious Right in Arizona Cheers Bill Allowing Businesses to Refuse to Serve ***s


    In New Mexico, a photographer declined to take pictures of a lesbian couple’s commitment ceremony. In Washington State, a florist would not provide flowers for a same-sex wedding. And in Colorado, a baker refused to make a cake for a party celebrating the wedding of two men.

    The business owners cited religious beliefs in declining to provide services celebrating same-sex relationships. And in each case, they were sued.

    Now, as states around the nation weigh how to balance the rights of same-sex couples with those of conservative religious business owners, Gov. Jan Brewer of Arizona must decide whether to sign legislation that would allow business owners to cite religious beliefs as a legal justification for denying service to same-sex couples.


    The legislation, approved by lawmakers on Thursday, immediately attracted national attention, with conservative religious groups welcoming it as a necessary form of protection for objectors to same-sex marriage, and *** rights groups denouncing it as a license for discrimination. The measure comes at a time when the courts are grappling with how to define the religious rights of private businesses: The Supreme Court is to hear two cases next month in which businesses are seeking exemptions from providing insurance coverage for contraception to their employees, citing the religious beliefs of the companies’ owners.

    “In America, people should be free to live and work according to their faith, and the government shouldn’t be able to tell us we can’t do that,” said Joseph E. La Rue, the legal counsel at Alliance Defending Freedom, a Christian legal organization based in Scottsdale, Ariz., that advocates religious liberty and supports the measure passed by the State Legislature. “Faith shouldn’t be something we have to leave inside our house.”

    But civil libertarians and *** rights advocates say there is a difference between protections for clergy and houses of worship that do not want to participate in same-sex marriage and the obligations of business owners that serve the general public.

    “Religious freedom is a fundamental right, but it’s not a blank check to harm others or impose our faith on our neighbors,” said Daniel Mach, who directs a program on freedom of religion and belief for the American Civil Liberties Union, which opposes the Arizona legislation. “Over the years, we as a nation have rejected efforts to invoke religion to justify discrimination in the marketplace, and there’s no reason to turn back the clock now.”

    Ms. Brewer, who has taken no public position on the legislation that will reach her desk next week, is a Republican whose tenure has been punctuated by controversy and political discord over a tough measure on illegal immigrants, which was denounced from the left, and a Medicaid expansion, which was criticized by the right.

    Last year she vetoed a similar religious freedom bill, arguing that it was a distraction from priorities lawmakers had yet to address, including the state budget. And there are similar circumstances this year, as legislators have yet to act on a package of proposed changes to the state’s child welfare system, which has been plagued by a slow response to complaints of abuse and neglect.

    Chuck Coughlin, a public affairs consultant who led Ms. Brewer’s transition team after she was elected governor in 2009 and has remained a close ally, said he was doubtful that she would sign the bill into law, saying, “We already have laws to sufficiently protect people’s religion freedoms in this country, and this bill could actually empower people to discriminate.”

    The bill comes at an awkward time for Ms. Brewer, who has been eager to move beyond controversy in her last year in office (term limits prevent her from running for re-election.)




    She has tried to focus on revitalizing the state’s economy, which is struggling in spite of a rebound of the housing market. The state, which was boycotted by some over the immigration measure, is preparing to host next year’s Super Bowl, and some residents worry that the religious freedom measure could again spur a backlash.

    The bill is headed to the desk of Gov. Jan Brewer, a Republican who has taken no public position on the legislation. Bebeto Matthews/Associated Press
    In a letter to Ms. Brewer on Friday, Gonzalo A. de la Melena Jr., president and chief executive of the Arizona Hispanic Chamber of Commerce, said the bill, if it becomes law, would “ultimately have the effect of casting Arizona in a negative light that stands to damage our reputation nationwide and globally, and significantly harm our fiscal future.”

    It was just one in a chorus of pleas that the governor to veto the legislation.

    “It sounds like it’s opening the door to hate and bigotry of all stripes,” said Rocco DiGrazia, a Tucson pizzeria owner, who on Friday attracted national attention via social media because he had posted signs on the restaurant’s doors declaring, “We Reserve the Right to Refuse Service to Arizona Legislators.”

    “I make dinner for a living — I’m not a social activist,” Mr. DiGrazia said in a telephone interview. “But I do have a lot of *** customers and employees, and why are you trying to alienate these people?”

    But supporters of the legislation said they would also work hard to persuade Ms. Brewer to sign the measure, in part by disputing much of the criticism it has faced.

    Most states where same-sex marriage is legal have exemptions for religious organizations, but not for private businesses or individuals, according to the National Conference of State Legislatures. The Arizona measure comes as multiple states are considering such exemptions, with considerable controversy. In Tennessee, the legislature is considering an exemption for wedding vendors; in Kansas, a similar measure was set aside when conservative senators raised concerns about discrimination. In Oregon, opponents of same-sex marriage are seeking to place an initiative on this year’s ballot that would allow individuals or businesses to opt out of participating in same-sex wedding ceremonies.

    Supporters and opponents of the Arizona legislation do not agree on its potential impact. The supporters say it would simply tweak an existing religious freedom law in Arizona to make it clear that private individuals can use religious freedom as a defense in civil litigation; the opponents say it would allow business owners to discriminate against anyone they do not like, citing religious freedom.

    “There is significant fear it will undermine local nondiscrimination laws,” said Sarah Warbelow, the state legislative director for the Human Rights Campaign, a *** rights advocacy organization. “This is not about the freedom of individuals to practice their religion, this is about a license to discriminate against individuals.”

    But Josh Kredit, legal counsel of the Center for Arizona Policy, a conservative group that supported the bill, said that Arizona has for years had a religious freedom law that has not been used to justify discrimination, and that the changes to that law made by the new measure are “vitally needed to ensure that in America people are free to live and work according to their faith.”

    “Arizona should be known as a state that welcomes people of faith and protects them,” he said. “These are intentional, purposeful distractions to try to kill this bill.”


    http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/22/us...***s.html?_r=0

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    Everyone must submit. Everyone who doesn't submit is of course a bigot and a threat to society. Every bigot should be put out of business and liable for whatever the State thinks is best for the welfare of the populace. There's no room in America with its evolved American-civil religion for opposing convictions. That is all.

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    Sorry Bedell, but you're not in the right here. We're not talking about the government forcing churches to marry,etc. that are protected religious rights, we're talking about someone who does business with the general public having a right to discriminate. There was a law passed many years ago that stopped such an event from happening to a black man or woman, that also protects homosexuals. People who are *** are not choosing to do it, just like people who're straight don't choose it. Sure there's some blurred lines where *** people pretend to be straight to avoid social stigmas but they're thinning.

    You're allowed to believe what you want, no one can take that from you. For example, I don't believe in god, if I owned a business and didn't serve people who believed in God would that be OK? And unlike being *** you can choose what religion to follow. There are certain things you sacrifice when you go from a private residence to a public business. For example, if you're a private residence the police can't just walk in the door as a potential customer and happen to spot suspicious activity. I could list a dozen more differences but you get the point. You can do whatever you want in the privacy of your own home, but you can't expect all the same rights to be protected in public domain.
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    Of course I am right.

    Everyone in any business must submit.

    Can't have the conviction against same-sex marriage (or whatever you guys want next) and do business.

    You all will be pleased. Less bigots operating businesses.

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    Connoisseur of Minors zitothebrave's Avatar
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    That's not what anyone has advocated for legally so far. Of course some will believe that. But you can hold any conviction and be in business, as long as you don't discriminate.

    You think a business should not serve someone because of the color of their skin or nation of origin?
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    Quote Originally Posted by zitothebrave View Post
    You think a business should not serve someone because of the color of their skin or nation of origin?
    I would venture to say that over 50% of the populace believes homosexuality is a lifestyle choice (right or wrong, I personally don't care).

    You need to tune your argument to cater to people with those beliefs, whether or not you believe they are incorrect.

    That's the only way we are going to see a societal compromise on issues like *** rights.

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    Science indicates that it doesn't. Whether people believe that or not doesn't matter.
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    Quote Originally Posted by zitothebrave View Post
    Science indicates that it doesn't. Whether people believe that or not doesn't matter.
    Indicates, but isn't remotely definitive. And fundamentalists really could care less about science.

    Why a person identifies as ***, or engages in homosexual activity, should be immaterial, though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    Indicates, but isn't remotely definitive. And fundamentalists really could care less about science.

    Why a person identifies as ***, or engages in homosexual activity, should be immaterial, though.
    I agree it should be immaterial, just like how I wouldn't refuse service to someone who has tattoos or piercings, or religious choice, etc. But someone not having a choice in who they are should absolutely for sure lead them to be legally protected. 100% and arguing against it or wanting a "compromise" is foolish.

    JMO you have 2 schools you can be part of. Either you believe everyone should be protected from discrimination regardless of race, color, nationality, gender, etc. or that businesses should 100% choose who to serve or not to serve. There really isn't a gray area whne it comes to things that people cannot choose.
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    Quote Originally Posted by zitothebrave View Post
    That's not what anyone has advocated for legally so far. Of course some will believe that. But you can hold any conviction and be in business, as long as you don't discriminate.

    You think a business should not serve someone because of the color of their skin or nation of origin?

    Of course it is.

    Bigot A believes that marriage is by definition that covenant union which allows for the possibility of procreation, and that to take photographs at a same-sex wedding ceremony is to show tacit approval of that which is opposed to her conviction. Bigot A is willing to take picture of Bill and Ron in other settings, just not at their wedding.

    You are saying, that she must or Bigot A must be fined, or have her license revoked, she must be put out of business.

    No one is forcing Bill and Ron to get married. It is their choice.

    No one is forcing Bill and Ron to try and hire Bigot A. it is their choice.

    You are saying that Bigot A is not allowed the choice to limit the services that she provides to Bill and Ron, even when that service goes against her conviction.

    Let me ask you Z, what if Bigot A also has the conviction that pornography is degrading to human beings and so chooses not to take pornographic pictures. Is that restriction of services discriminatory? Or does she have that right?
    Last edited by BedellBrave; 02-22-2014 at 12:30 PM.

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    So Zito the bakery that refused to make the cake for the kid named Adolf Hitler or whatever his name was, was that discrimination?

    Did the bakery not like a name and discriminate against it ?

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    That's comparing apples to oranges. So there's no point even attempting to bother with it.

    A more accurate question is if a photographer believes interracial or interreligious marriages are wrong do they have the right to not shoot it?

    JMO if someone doesn't want to shoot a *** wedding they should advertise themselves as a photographer for a specific religion, then you'd have an interesting debate. My bet though, Bigot A has shot non-church weddings, so they're working with the general public they have to abide by the same laws as other businesses do. Do you think that a restaurant's chef should be allowed to not serve black people because he believes they're subhumans?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krgrecw View Post
    So Zito the bakery that refused to make the cake for the kid named Adolf Hitler or whatever his name was, was that discrimination?

    Did the bakery not like a name and discriminate against it ?
    Yes it is discrimination and they should have made it. I
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    My only contention is that there must be compromise because of the vocal majority that believe it is a choice. Nobody appreciates being told what to think, even when they may be in the wrong. Blanket legislation (or even looking at this through a legal lens) might not solve the problem, and runs the risk of engendering more hate (see: Affirmative Action).

    Should a Muslim be allowed to openly practice his faith in a Baptist church?
    Last edited by Hawk; 02-22-2014 at 12:38 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    My only contention is that there must be compromise because of the vocal majority that believe it is a choice. Nobody appreciates being told what to think, even when they may be in the wrong. Blanket legislation (or even looking this through a legal lens) might not solve the problem, and runs the risk of engendering more hate (see: Affirmative Action).

    Should a Muslim be allowed to openly practice his faith in a Baptist church?
    That's extremely apples and oranges. Churches are not businesses open to the public.

    And affirmative action is a problem for drawing ire. But it's a necessary problem because there were big problems in the south and elsewhere.
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    So affirmative action Is legal discrimination? You just went on a rant about how discrimination is wrong but now you agree with it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by zitothebrave View Post
    That's extremely apples and oranges. Churches are not businesses open to the public.
    True, but churches don't have to be physical places (some believe your body is your sanctuary) and religion is personally defined.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zitothebrave View Post
    That's comparing apples to oranges. So there's no point even attempting to bother with it.

    A more accurate question is if a photographer believes interracial or interreligious marriages are wrong do they have the right to not shoot it?

    JMO if someone doesn't want to shoot a *** wedding they should advertise themselves as a photographer for a specific religion, then you'd have an interesting debate. My bet though, Bigot A has shot non-church weddings, so they're working with the general public they have to abide by the same laws as other businesses do. Do you think that a restaurant's chef should be allowed to not serve black people because he believes they're subhumans?

    No your analogies are apples to oranges.

    Answer my question. Is refusal to do a pornographic shoot discriminatory? Be consistent. Your position is that if someone wants a business to provide a service within it's type of services, then that business must perform it if they serve the general public. The wishes of the customer are paramount.

    Now to your question.

    And I answer for myself. I think such a photographer is bigoted. I think their conviction is wrong. That it is unsound. And that they should/ought to do a photo shoot for such a wedding. But, that the couple hiring them would be better served choosing another photographer.

    But should it be illegal for the photographer to refuse service? Probably not (though I realize that's not a popular or appealing position). We want everything to be black/white (pardon the pun) and we act as if there is some sort of common, agreed-upon, moral code to which we can appeal - but there isn't. What we do in the end is encode one morality over another - one person's freedom over another's. It's all about power.

    Thinking further though about your scenario, I wonder, would a person that believes interracial marriage is wrong, be willing to do a non-wedding photo shoot of the interracial couple? I doubt it.

    I know the baker in CO was willing to provide his services to that couple for other things beyond the wedding cake.

    Now to your concluding opinion, I think that's the only option now available for photographers and bakers and anyone offering wedding services. But, it will challenged and it won't stand either.

    Because, again, it is all about approval…and submission...

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    Would Bill and Ron go to a Muslim caterer and try to hire him to cater the wedding party with non-halal items on their desired menu? And when he refused seek to put him out of business?

    Probably not. At least not yet.

    I think non-Muslims who are opposed to ssm probably ought to bill themselves as only providing services to those who are like-minded. But they won't be successful.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    Indicates, but isn't remotely definitive. And fundamentalists really could care less about science.

    Why a person identifies as ***, or engages in homosexual activity, should be immaterial, though.

    First, "Science says" is silly. Science isn't a monolithic, lock-stepped, united at all points, saying the same thing, entity. And saying "Science says" is just a power-play trick.

    Second, the science isn't settled and to say that it is is either to speak from ignorance or is intentionally misleading. Different theories point to genetics, environment, choice or a combination.

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