Will the real Jason Heyward please stand up?

[zitothebrave]

But right now Heyward is as bad of a hitter (worse actually) than Langy. Langy played a very good CF in his prime, so it stands to assume he would have been a plus defender in RF as well. But that isn't really the point.

I'm not arguing defense isn't important, but it is nowhere near important (individually anyways) as offense. Yet WAR would have you believe he's been worth more wins than Freeman AND and that Heyward has been one of the 10 best players in baseball this yr.

Actually that's not entirely true, Langerhans had a season with a 52 wRC+ over 244 PA, Jason is sitting at 67 in 107.

Langerhans didn't have much of a defensive sample outside of LF. And he was very good in LF (17.5 UZR/150) but Jason is sitting at a 18.4 UZR/150 for RF which obviously has better defenders.

[jsebe10]

But a player who saves 20 and scores/drives in 160 is just as valuable as someone who saves 0 and scores/drives in 180 even using your overly simplistic look on stats no?

How do you win ball games? SCORING MORE RUNS THAN THE OPPONENT. Not saving more runs than the opponent. Defense is important, but not as important as scoring runs, plain and simple.

[The Chosen One]

We'll agree to disagree before Keith warns me again.

Actually this has turned into the official Jason Heyward discussion thread...

So I will allow it. I just don't want this conversation jumping into other threads especially the GDT.

No personal attacks, but keep it to the numbers like you have.

[Carp]

I find it funny how people act like defense doesnt matter.

Preventing runs if just as important as scoring/driving them in.

Ask our pitchers if Heyward's defense doesnt matter, breaking it does, a LOT.

Or why don't we ask out pitchers how mad they get when they throw 8 innings of 1 run ball or less and still get the L? I'm betting it's a LOT!

[jsebe10]

14 players had 100+ RBI's last year in ALL OF BASEBALL.

Does everyone who didnt drive in 100 runs suck then according to this logic.

And RBI's is a dumb stat just like pitcher wins.

And Heyward hits leadoff, so it's gonna be VERY hard to drive in 100 runs from the leadoff spot.

Doubles, walks, runs, and saving runs with defense is just as important as RBI's which is a flawed stat.

Brandon Phillips lead the NL in RBI's, is he the best hitter in the NL then?



We'll agree to disagree before Keith warns me again.

A flawed stat?

What in the hell kind of genre are we in now with baseball? I guess I am way to old school for this convo.

[The Chosen One]

How do you win ball games? SCORING MORE RUNS THAN THE OPPONENT. Not saving more runs than the opponent. Defense is important, but not as important as scoring runs, plain and simple.

Actually defense is very important. Can you imagine throwing out 2 Evan Gattis' like defenders in left and right, and then having a Billy Hamilton all speed but no range or instincts in CF?

Do you think if we had butchers in the outfield yesterday that the game is still 0-0 to the 10th?

We've seen from Uggla this year just how important defense is, as he's costed us a few times already.

And baseball is about scoring 1 more run than the other team, not scoring a lot of runs to beat the other team. As long as our pitching remains dominant, we will be fine for now.

[thethe]

Heyward has posted a 6.4 fWAR season and assuming his bat returns to normal and his defense drops to normal he'll probably be in the 5-6 range. Which is great. No he's not Trout, but those types are super rare. And for comparison it took Cutch til his 25 year old season to hit his superstar status, Jason may very well wind up in that same boat. he's only 24. Even if he doesn't, he's still a heck of a baseball player. If you expected him to be Bonds or Trout, then yeah you'll be disappointed, but Heyward has been for 3 of his 4 seasons an All-Star or near All-star level player and he's under 25, is that really a disappointment?

Listen, I think WAR inflates defensive guys. I will be interested to see when the new technology is actually incorporated into defensive statistics. There is no way you can definitively place a win value to defense at this point. The data is just not as reliable as we need it to be. Not yet it isn't.

[The Chosen One]

Or why don't we ask out pitchers how mad they get when they throw 8 innings of 1 run ball or less and still get the L? I'm betting it's a LOT!

That's baseball.

It isn't like we were getting shutout by a 5th starter. The Fernandez and Cueto games were against the other team's aces.

[jsebe10]

Or why don't we ask out pitchers how mad they get when they throw 8 innings of 1 run ball or less and still get the L? I'm betting it's a LOT!

Shhhhh stop making sense Carp. If Heyward doesn't drive in the game winning run, it's ok because he made a diving catch earlier in the game.

[Modok]

On the Scout board, I got slammed for saying that Freeman was a better hitter than Heyward. This was at the start of last season.

Heyward needs to learn to hit the ball the other way. As far as he stands away from the plate, its a must.

As much as his hitting is frustrating, there is not arguing his contributions on D. He is an extremely gifted defender.

[Carp]

But a player who saves 20 and scores/drives in 160 is just as valuable as someone who saves 0 and scores/drives in 180 even using your overly simplistic look on stats no?

Not that driving in runs is a good way to prove anything, but the idea that someone "Saved 20 runs" is also not based on extremely accurate stats.

[Heyward]

A flawed stat?

What in the hell kind of genre are we in now with baseball? I guess I am way to old school for this convo.

Yes, RBI's is a flawed stat.

Brandon Phillips had the most RBI's last year, is he the best hitter in the game?

Only 14 in all of baseball.

Do doubles, walks, runs, singles account for anything or is it all about the homers and RBI's?

[zitothebrave]

How do you win ball games? SCORING MORE RUNS THAN THE OPPONENT. Not saving more runs than the opponent. Defense is important, but not as important as scoring runs, plain and simple.

And run prevention.

I mean it would be ideal if we dropped 10 runs per game, but even with a team of guys hitting like Justin and Freddie we wouldn't do that. So go on.

[Modok]

Yes, RBI's is a flawed stat.

Brandon Phillips had the most RBI's last year, is he the best hitter in the game?

Only 14 in all of baseball.

Do doubles, walks, runs, singles account for anything or is it all about the homers and RBI's?

Do you also think that RISP is a flawed stat?

[jsebe10]

Plain and simple, if you do not drive in or score runs you won't in in the league or a team long, no matter how good you are defensively. Ask Jeff Franceour.

[The Chosen One]

A flawed stat?

What in the hell kind of genre are we in now with baseball? I guess I am way to old school for this convo.

Wins for a pitcher certainly don't tell the entire story.

Wood has pitched phenomenal in all of his losses this year. 8 innings in every loss I think? Washington, Philly, Florida?

Then Russ Ortiz winning 21 games in 2003 despite having like 6 runs per game of run support. I don't think anybody here thought Ortiz deserved the Cy Young with 21 wins and a 3.81 ERA that year.

It's a misleading number. Cliff Lee lost two games to us throwing a complete game and striking out +10.

It's especially misleading because of how all managers micromanage the bullpen now... Guys like Maddux-Johnson-Glavine etc earned 300 win because of consistency and longevity.

[jsebe10]

And run prevention.

I mean it would be ideal if we dropped 10 runs per game, but even with a team of guys hitting like Justin and Freddie we wouldn't do that. So go on.

Run prevention due to pitching, yes. We've seen Heyward and Simmons save plenty of runs in games that we lost because the other team scored more runs.

[Heyward]

How do you win ball games? SCORING MORE RUNS THAN THE OPPONENT. Not saving more runs than the opponent. Defense is important, but not as important as scoring runs, plain and simple.

Defense is very important.

Like i said, in the playoffs, you are facing STUDS, aces/#2's, so runs are at a premium.

You cant have butchers out there giving the team extra outs to score.

Heyward has been ass at the plate so far, but his defense has been extremely important and is a big reason we are where we are.

[The Chosen One]

Plain and simple, if you do not drive in or score runs you won't in in the league or a team long, no matter how good you are defensively. Ask Jeff Franceour.

Jeter won a GG... everyone knows how awful defensively he is.

Francoeur fell off a cliff. Once he stopped hitting 25 homers and 100 rbis he was useless because he didn't walk, didn't rack up doubles or a high batting average and struck out a lot. He also never made the pitcher work as the hack attack thing died once pitcher realized he couldn't hit a breaking ball for any use.

[Heyward]

Do you also think that RISP is a flawed stat?

To a certain degree, yes.