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Thread: The Virtues and Necessity of Short-Term Thinking

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    The Virtues and Necessity of Short-Term Thinking

    Many of us are aware that this board has ancestors dating back to the earliest days of the new millennium. In fact, I remember defending Mike Remlinger on the old Baseballboards.com forum in winter 2000. As an aside, if you think this offseason is disappointing, it's got nothing on that one: we entered thinking we would probably sign A-Rod, and had Mike Hampton as a fallback, and instead ended up signing Rico Brogna.

    Anyway, I've been talking about Braves baseball on the internet for half my life now. Over that time, there's been what I see as a welcome evolution in the way fans talk about baseball. Perhaps as a result of Moneyball, or perhaps as a result of the fact that baseball's management structure has evolved in a way that fans can convince themselves they're a decade of hard work and statistical study away from being a GM, fans are thinking long-term more than ever. In the old days, we rarely talked about the minor league system. Trades were discussed almost entirely in terms of how they would affect the big league club.

    A lot of that, I suppose, was a reflection of where the team was. When you're always playing for a World Series, you tend to think short-term. Obviously, that's not a luxury Braves' fans have any more.

    Regardless of the reasons, we talk more about the long-term now than we ever did before. We have daily threads on the minor league teams. Trade discussions, while prone to all the usual nonsense internet trade discussions are prone to, focus more than ever on long-term considerations. We talk about flipping veterans for prospects and generally care more about the farm system than we used to.

    Again, this is a good thing. The level of conversation is definitely higher when everyone understands the importance of young, cost-controlled talent, instead of simply saying, "This trade will make us better, therefore it's good."

    So I understand that when we talk about the Heyward trade, it's not unreasonable to ask critics, "What do you want Hart to do? Let Heyward leave at the end of the season and just get a draft pick?" If we grant that Heyward just could not have been re-signed, then yes, the deal with St. Louis is better for the organization's long-term health than playing out the season.

    But the thought that keeps tripping me up is this: I'm not sure there is a long-term for the Braves.

    Oh, the franchise will still exist, will stay play baseball, will probably play reasonably well from time-to-time. But if the goal of an organization is to consistently compete at the highest levels, then the Heyward trade makes clear that goal is not a realistic one for the franchise.

    Put simply, if we can't retain players like Jason Heyward, we will not consistently compete with the Nationals, Mets, Marlins and a competent Phillies organization.

    If ownership continues to decree that an organization based in one of the country's largest, fastest-growing metropolises needs to spend as though it played in Blue Springs, Missouri, then we will not be able to spend the money required to sign championship-caliber players. Good players require big contracts, and in 2014, great players require huge contracts.

    The inability to re-sign Heyward is particularly ominous. Here's a homegrown talent, still exceptionally young, possessed of a broad-based, well-rounded skill set that, historically, ages well. Well-liked in the community, and particularly important for an organization that has sometimes struggled to reach Atlanta's African-American community.

    Would a long-term contract have been difficult? Undoubtedly. But, again, this gets back to the way in which the organization is perceived by its ownership. We have a fancy new stadium opening in 2017. We know Uggla's contract is off the books after 2015. We know that BJ Upton's contract is off the books after 2017. These things are facts. They're going to happen. A motivated front office could creatively craft a backloaded contract to take advantage of those facts- a relatively small raise in 2016, a bigger one in 2017, a huge raise to a plateau for 2018 and future years.

    However, such a thing was apparently not possible. And so we go back to that question: "what do you want Hart to do?" And here's the thing about not having a long term: you get to think about the short term.

    What should the Braves have done? Saddle the horse again and charge one more time into the breach. Make one last run with Heyward and Upton. Would such a run have worked? Probably not. There were holes to fill, not much money to fill them with and not much minor league talent to use in trades. But a creative approach that embraced significant short-term risk could have put us in a position to challenge for a wild card berth.

    Play in the second-and-third tier free agent starter market and go after Peavy or Masterson. Make Hale the fifth starter. Talk to the Dodgers about Chris Capuano as a sixth starter type. Dangle Walden for starter help. Dangle Bethancourt for younger, more long-term starter help. See about buying low on Michael Saunders.

    Does that guarantee anything? Of course not. And it no doubt leaves us worse off in the long term. But if we're unable to retain playoff-caliber talent, playoff runs are going to be few and far between in the future. So, yes, I'm explicitly advocating for a "screw the future" approach. You can do that when you're not sure if the future is worth protecting.

    In isolation, none of this really depends on one's evaluation of the current front office. It's more about financial realities imposed by ownership. But it is worth acknowledging that the uncertainty of the future is more easily accepted if you believe in the front office. Unthinking acceptance is never a good idea, regardless of the executive's track record, but it is reasonable sometimes to trust in the proven skill and wisdom of a GM to see a franchise through troubled waters.

    But I just don't see any reason to show that sort of trust. It's one thing to fire Frank Wren after a single 79-win season. It's another thing to throw yourself at the feet of a 66-year-old executive whose most recent performance as a general manager saw him win an average off 77 games over four seasons. It's one thing to express optimism during a transition. It's another thing to display an odd combination of triumphalism about the "Braves Way" and an Orwellian need to erase all traces of Wren and his bloodline, while acting as if the years before 2014 never happened. It's one thing to focus on pitching, it's another thing to take the Underpants Gnomes approach to team building:

    Step One: Trade every good hitter from a crummy offense, acquire pitching at every opportunity.
    Step Two: ???
    Step Three: Victory!

    Put another way, I wish we had bet on the long odds of an Upton-and-Heyward-driven World Series run in 2014 than the even smaller odds of a World Series run in 2021.

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    It all boils down to player evaluation and how much value you believe an individual player is worth. It's clear the Braves front office has disagreed with a large portion of the Braves fanbase. I believe that they have money to spend but to spend that as a means to play cate the fanbase when it conflicts with your valuations is a quick way to fielding a poor team. We are going to find out in a couple of years if they made the right decision.

    I disagree with this notion that the front office has no clue what it's doing right now. I think others have mentioned it but every move is with 2017 in mind. This is the future and the hope is that attendence and relevance will spike dramatically when they get in the center of their fans which will spend money.

    At the same time we will never be the Yankees or Dodgers. There will always be spending limitations. You have to trust your organization when they tell you a player is worth X. If that player wants decidedly more then you convert that player into future value.

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    Well it's always a judgement call. We just don't have enough solid pieces to win now. I think you have to trade J Up too. What's the point in keeping him?

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    Interesting essay, thank you. See the early part of "Moneyball," when Billy decides he can't compete using traditional approach. He decides he needs to find value where others can't. It's fairly well established that teams withou money can compete...it's usually not as consistently as teams with money. It is a lot tougher. It depends on scouting, and evaluation, and teaching, and taking good educated risks with the money you have. You need some luck, too.

    We're unlikely to keep many guys around who want top dollar. Freddie didn't need top dollar, but he was willing to forego his most important tool to get top dollar; ergo, he's a Brave for the next decade. Jason needed top dollar; additionally, he had a significantly different opinion of his own value than his history supports. So he's flipped for young controllable assets.

    We can expect that scenario to play out a lot. The economics of baseball suck.

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    I do not believe they traded Heyward in a vacuum without knowing with a near certainty that they could not sign him for anything less than a "market value" deal, which, btw, even with his stellar defense I do not believe was warranted given his offensive track record to this point. I have been watching and listening to Braves games since 1971, so while others may feel the sky is falling I have seen years when it was already in the ground. I do not believe we are going to be back anywhere close to those days again. I have watched the evolution of the game take us to the point where a team like the Giants can win ever other year and suck in their off years. The difference between good and bad in baseball is much more narrow, from one year to the next, than it has ever been before, IMO. Back to the Heyward deal for a second, that trade can be argued pro or con all year long on this board, it won't change the fact it happened. Branch Rickey often said it was better to make trade a year too soon instead of a year to late. I think that applies more now in the fee agent era than it did way back when. With that philosophy, better to get two known commodities than one unknown one...just my two cents.

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    Not gonna lie, when I entered the website and saw half of the title of this thread on the homepage, I thought it was created by nsacpi.
    Forever Fredi


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    If we are not going to seriously compete for 2 years, we should trade Kimbrel as well while his value is at it's peak. But, I think we can compete with this pitching staff and the pieces we have. We need contact hitters to scratch out runs. Strike out players who hit home runs aren't gonna win that many games. J Upton came in 2nd with 29 HRs last year. That is ONE HR every 5.5 games. I would rather have a contact hitter.

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    Yeah I don't see why we're keeping Kimbrel if we aren't going to make a run this year or next.

    J Up is gone now or after this year.

    Unless Hart pulls some Houdini like deals, I expect us to compete for the wild card and not much else. We still have the pitching to maybe carry us to a wild card spot, but offense is really suspect unless we can replace Heyward with 2-3 productive hitters.
    Forever Fredi


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    It also needs to be said, that the grandmas that have frequented these boards are only thinking short-term, not long-term.
    Forever Fredi


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    It's fair to question it, but i'll wait and see what other moves are made and what they get back in the trades.

    If ramadon is right, it might have been best to trade Heyward if he's truly wanting 200+ mil.

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    Here is where we need to point at the calendar to calm some people down. There is no way in hell Hart and Schuerholz are anywhere near finished with their retooling.

    But as for the long-term. The new stadium in 2017 will change the landscape much more than people seem to realize. The rest is long, long term, the 13 years that remain on their abomination of a rights deal. It was helped with the 2013 agreement with Fox, but the hard, cold truth is that it will be 2027 before they are able to swing for the fences again in all aspects. Barring a miracle renegotiation, of course.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BJ#1FAN View Post
    It also needs to be said, that the grandmas that have frequented these boards are only thinking short-term, not long-term.
    But we brought cookies!
    "For all his tattooings he was on the whole a clean, comely looking cannibal."

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    Quote Originally Posted by BJ#1FAN View Post
    It also needs to be said, that the grandmas that have frequented these boards are only thinking short-term, not long-term.
    Thats gold Jerry!
    Natural Immunity Croc

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    Quote Originally Posted by rico43 View Post
    Here is where we need to point at the calendar to calm some people down. There is no way in hell Hart and Schuerholz are anywhere near finished with their retooling.

    But as for the long-term. The new stadium in 2017 will change the landscape much more than people seem to realize. The rest is long, long term, the 13 years that remain on their abomination of a rights deal. It was helped with the 2013 agreement with Fox, but the hard, cold truth is that it will be 2027 before they are able to swing for the fences again in all aspects. Barring a miracle renegotiation, of course.
    Remind me what the adjustment was in 2013. I know we got some relief.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Heyward View Post
    It's fair to question it, but i'll wait and see what other moves are made and what they get back in the trades.

    If ramadon is right, it might have been best to trade Heyward if he's truly wanting 200+ mil.

    Pretty sure Ramadon was right. When Wren was running around, locking up everybody with a pulse, why wouldn't he have been trying to tie up Heyward too? He wanted more than Freddie. Freddie's a better player. I don't think for a second the Braves could have extented Heyward.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jpx7 View Post
    But we brought cookies!
    And I just want to see a World Series before I die! Is that too much to ask?

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    Director of Minor League Reports rico43's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadduxFanII View Post
    And I just want to see a World Series before I die! Is that too much to ask?
    Be careful what you ask for. 1995 was cool. 1996 was soul-crushing and seems far more vivid than the win.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rico43 View Post
    Be careful what you ask for. 1995 was cool. 1996 was soul-crushing and seems far more vivid than the win.
    Man, that was awful. Even worse? I had to hear it from all my friends at school since everyone and their mother was a Yankee fan in the early 90's.
    Natural Immunity Croc

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    Quote Originally Posted by rico43 View Post
    Be careful what you ask for. 1995 was cool. 1996 was soul-crushing and seems far more vivid than the win.
    Honestly, I meant to type "win" and somehow my fingers churned out "see."

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    Anytime Now Frankie...
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    May I ask what was wrong with Mike Remlinger? Guy was arguably one of the best, and in some cases, the best setup guy in the game during his tenure him from 99-02.

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