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Thread: Braves sniffing around on Markakis; Official 4 years 44 million.

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    Quote Originally Posted by clvclv View Post
    As it stands now, we'd have to sign Markakis before completing an Upton and/or Gattis deal even if you assume something's closer than Hart's letting on - Markakis makes a ton more sense for Toronto than Melky if they're looking to save some money.
    Given the way they back-loaded Martin's contract, Toronto might not have much in the way of 2015 payroll wiggle room left. They might be strongly motivated to move Buerhle or Dickey to create some.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 50PoundHead View Post
    I think the thing is if we didn't view ourselves as contenders with Heyward, why would we invest in Markakis? I get the financial implications and all that, but it just wouldn't seem to make that much sense to sign Markakis except that someone has to stand in RF.
    If one thinks that Markakis is essentially an equal replacement for Heyward, then a certain logic becomes apparent: replace Heyward with his non-union Mexican equivalent for less money, receive approximately the same level of production and add Miller to the rotation, filling one of the holes left by Harang and Santana.

    I don't think that way, of course, but the logic is sound if you grant the first condition.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    Also, don't you find it contradictory that the team moves Heyward under the flimsily evidenced auspices of 'He wanted big bucks' but subsequently involves itself in the process of spending those big bucks anyways?
    Are you referring to kicking the tires on Lester?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Enscheff View Post
    No, it means the Braves could afford to spend $10M for a RFer, but can't afford to spend $25M on a RFer no matter how good he might be some day.

    It's a little silly how some posters insist on making the Heyward trade anything more than the simple fact "the Braves couldn't afford the asking price of a RFer that wasn't a consistent middle of the lineup producer". Freeman has proven to be that consistent middle of the order bat, so he got the big bucks. Heyward hasn't yet proven it, so he didn't get the same money from the Braves.

    Seriously, does every damn thread have to be turned into a Heyward bitchfest?

    Thank you.

    No matter how much bitching people here want to do, we've ALL known since the Freeman contract and other extensions were handed out last winter that...

    WE WERE ONLY GOING TO BE ABLE TO RE-SIGN ONE OF HEYWARD OR UPTON UNLESS THE CONTRACT DO-OVER FAIRY TOOK B. J.'S CONTRACT AWAY.


    Let it die already, geez. If you think Heyward was worth trying to extend INSTEAD of Justin, that's fine (and wrong) - you're welcome to have your own opinion. If you think there was a chance in hell we were ever going to be able to keep both without a new owner, new revenue structure, and a suddenly sold-out stadium for the next ten years, you're just not very bright.
    Waters is intersting too. Would prefer a guy that projects to more power though. (2017 Draft Thread)

    If they don't make additions they can expect the same 3-5 win improvement they saw last year. That makes the Braves a 75-78 win team. (What's the best we could hope for in 2018?)


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    Quote Originally Posted by nsacpi View Post
    Are you referring to kicking the tires on Lester?
    Lester, Tomas, Markakis, recent supposed 'openness' to extending Justin Upton ... these are not remotely the type of moves that a cash-deprived organization would endeavor upon. Right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by MadduxFanII View Post
    If one thinks that Markakis is essentially an equal replacement for Heyward, then a certain logic becomes apparent: replace Heyward with his non-union Mexican equivalent for less money, receive approximately the same level of production and add Miller to the rotation, filling one of the holes left by Harang and Santana.

    I don't think that way, of course, but the logic is sound if you grant the first condition.
    I think the question on Heyward is whether or not "he is who he is" at this point. The Braves must think so. It is readily apparent to me that Markakis--at 31 and with considerably less in terms of physical tools than Heyward--"is who he is."

    My point here is that I don't think the Braves are 2015 contenders with or without Heyward (certainly less so without him). You are more optimistic than me on that point.

    Funny thing about Markakis is that the Braves loved him coming out of Young Harris, but he flew up the draft boards and the Orioles took him before the Braves could. Braves saw him as a pitcher. Of course, in those days, the Braves' scouting brass pretty much saw everyone as a pitcher.
    Last edited by 50PoundHead; 12-02-2014 at 12:40 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by clvclv View Post
    WE WERE ONLY GOING TO BE ABLE TO RE-SIGN ONE OF HEYWARD OR UPTON UNLESS THE CONTRACT DO-OVER FAIRY TOOK B. J.'S CONTRACT AWAY.
    And now we're going to re-sign zero of those two (in all likelihood).

    Riddle me that, batman.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    Lester, Tomas, Markakis, recent supposed 'openness' to extending Justin Upton ... these are not remotely the type of moves that a cash-deprived organization would endeavor upon. Right?
    The question is whether any of that was genuine or just going through the motions. I try not to confuse activity with accomplishment.

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    Quote Originally Posted by clvclv View Post
    Thank you.

    No matter how much bitching people here want to do, we've ALL known since the Freeman contract and other extensions were handed out last winter that...

    WE WERE ONLY GOING TO BE ABLE TO RE-SIGN ONE OF HEYWARD OR UPTON UNLESS THE CONTRACT DO-OVER FAIRY TOOK B. J.'S CONTRACT AWAY.


    Let it die already, geez. If you think Heyward was worth trying to extend INSTEAD of Justin, that's fine (and wrong) - you're welcome to have your own opinion. If you think there was a chance in hell we were ever going to be able to keep both without a new owner, new revenue structure, and a suddenly sold-out stadium for the next ten years, you're just not very bright.
    You might be right. How do you interpret our meeting with Lester and his agent in light of the above?

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    Quote Originally Posted by nsacpi View Post
    The question is whether any of that was genuine or just going through the motions. I try not to confuse activity with accomplishment.
    True. Everybody yaks with each other all off-season and with the 24-hour sportsnews cycle and all the half-cocked self-appointed experts on the web, there's a lot more wrapper than there is candy bar.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nsacpi View Post
    The question is whether any of that was genuine or just going through the motions. I try not to confuse activity with accomplishment.
    It's quite possible.

    What puzzles me is why the team would send Gonzalez/Seitzer/Coppolella down to the Dominican Republican if they weren't serious about spending the dollars required to secure Tomas. Lester I could definitely chalk up to an exercise in PR.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nsacpi View Post
    Given the way they back-loaded Martin's contract, Toronto might not have much in the way of 2015 payroll wiggle room left. They might be strongly motivated to move Buerhle or Dickey to create some.
    Yeah I noticed that too. Probably has as much to do with just balancing the books long-term though...they start paying him when those two are off the books and their young Pitchers are ready to replace them in the rotation though. Can't remember if it was on MLBTR, XM, or MLB Network, but something I saw/heard since the Donaldson trade led me to believe they still had room to bring Melky back if they were inclined to meet his asking price.

    One way or the other, they seriously need a left handed bat to try to balance that lineup at least a little.
    Waters is intersting too. Would prefer a guy that projects to more power though. (2017 Draft Thread)

    If they don't make additions they can expect the same 3-5 win improvement they saw last year. That makes the Braves a 75-78 win team. (What's the best we could hope for in 2018?)


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    Quote Originally Posted by MadduxFanII View Post
    If one thinks that Markakis is essentially an equal replacement for Heyward, then a certain logic becomes apparent: replace Heyward with his non-union Mexican equivalent for less money, receive approximately the same level of production and add Miller to the rotation, filling one of the holes left by Harang and Santana.

    I don't think that way, of course, but the logic is sound if you grant the first condition.
    I think this was exactly how the Braves viewed Heyward...a young, inconsistent, light hitting corner OFer with power potential that plays premium defense at a non-premium (meaning not up the middle) position, who was also starting to develop a poor platoon split vs LHed pitching. They simply could not afford to commit $200M+ to a player like that after whiffing so badly on Uggla and BJ (who was also signed largely based on potential). If Heyward had been the .900+ OPS monster he was predicted to be, I bet the Braves would have extended him at $25M per for 10 years by now.

    Markakis most definitely is what he is...a 30+ year old consistent OBP threat with average power that can play a competent RF and doesn't have much of a platoon split at all. And thus, his price tag is half that of Heyward's.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    It's quite possible.

    What puzzles me is why the team would send Gonzalez/Seitzer/Coppolella down to the Dominican Republican if they weren't serious about spending the dollars required to secure Tomas. Lester I could definitely chalk up to an exercise in PR.
    It's quite possible that when those guys saw Tomas against live pitching they determined at that time he wasn't worth $70M.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Enscheff View Post
    It's quite possible that when those guys saw Tomas against live pitching they determined at that time he wasn't worth $70M.
    The (entire) point is that they were willing to invest the money in a product they felt worthy of the spend.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zitothebrave View Post
    I highly doubt Markakis takes that much less than 8 million.

    Markakis also is a very poor man's Heyward, in his 9 years as a pro he's compiled a 22.6 fWAR, Jason in his 5 years has compiled a 21.4 fWAR. Offensively they're almost identical, but the defensive swing is massive.
    True, Heyward is as great as you'll see in right field on defense and Markakis had a -14 DRS over two seasons before last year improving to only a 1 DRS in right field. He has also had a -11 DRS season in right field too.

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    An alternative approach to Markakis is to find a team with a corner outfielder with a bad contract and take that player on and send BJ over. There are teams with surplus corner outfielders and a need for someone who can play center who might consider this. Some cash might have to go in one direction or another to make the deal work. I'm thinking of Ethier, Choo, Kemp, Craig, Victorino. It just seems to me that this kind of approach makes more sense in light of our need to free up cash to upgrade at center and elsewhere.

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  20. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by nsacpi View Post
    You might be right. How do you interpret our meeting with Lester and his agent in light of the above?


    I think it was exactly what they said it was - kicking the tires to see what we'd have to do in the event we moved Justin. "Hey Jon, we understand you'd love to pitch here and we'd love to have you. You don't have to talk dollars and specifics, but we're operating under the assumption that Boston's reported offer of 6/$110 million is relatively close. In the event we're able to move some salaries and make a deal or two before you've made your decision would you like us to get back in touch if we can get around the 5/$100 million range? We may not be a contender in 2015, but we're willing to go down that road in discussions about reshaping our roster with other teams with our eye on being a legitimate threat to win it all no later than 2017."

    Since that meeting we've figured out that the Cubs blew that number out of the water and the Sox will push further if they need to. There's no reason to feel we could get close enough to that ballpark even if he were willing to give us a $10-$20 million hometown discount. I'd even be willing to bet Hart or someone has called him since the Cubs' offer was leaked and told him we couldn't.
    Last edited by clvclv; 12-02-2014 at 01:00 PM.
    Waters is intersting too. Would prefer a guy that projects to more power though. (2017 Draft Thread)

    If they don't make additions they can expect the same 3-5 win improvement they saw last year. That makes the Braves a 75-78 win team. (What's the best we could hope for in 2018?)


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    Quote Originally Posted by Enscheff View Post
    Markakis most definitely is what he is...a 30+ year old consistent OBP threat with average power that can play a competent RF and doesn't have much of a platoon split at all. And thus, his price tag is half that of Heyward's.
    Markakis is a 31 year old player, already in decline, with considerable injury risk, asking for a 4-year commitment.

    Not exactly a negligible risk proposition.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    Markakis is a 31 year old player, already in decline, with considerable injury risk, asking for a 4-year commitment.

    Not exactly a negligible risk proposition.
    So he's the right player at the wrong age then at the wrong stage of his career.....right? Right! Mr Hart!

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