Gattis Traded To Astros (pg. 13)

[NYCBrave]

Not that i prefered going "for it" this year... but had we done so, we would have still gotten draft pick compensation. The difference between that and what we got for the Upton and Heyward trades wasnt that dramatic. Imo.

I'd probably disagree on that, but it's hard to really know how anything would have panned out. However, from all indications, all of our additions caused a total makeover of our top 20 prospect list, it added about 10 guys to it. That's how bad of shape our minor league system was in.

[Perfect Cell]

I'd probably disagree on that, but it's hard to really know how anything would have panned out. However, from all indications, all of our additions caused a total makeover of our top 20 prospect list, it added about 10 guys to it. That's how bad of shape our minor league system was in.

The only real difference from going for it and the "Rebuild" was the Upton and Heyward deals. Gattis would have still been dealt, and the other smaller deals could have still happened.

[Perfect Cell]

Really? What's the likelihood that any of those picks would have been a top 10 prospect like Miller was?

I think its likely we could have gotten a mid rotation starter out of the compensation picks we would have gotten. But its hypothetical of course.

[thethe]

I think its likely we could have gotten a mid rotation starter out of the compensation picks we would have gotten. But its hypothetical of course.

Sure but we also got 5 additional players on top of someone who at this point looks like a guaranteed mid rotation starter with still some upside. This idea we could have gotten a similar return with the comp picks seems very strange to me.

[The Chosen One]

And I'm not really here to defend Wren, but he fielded competitive teams on a mid-tier budget nearly every season he was here.

Your priorities are different when it comes to trying to make the playoffs every year versus rebuilding.

We had 2 losing seasons under Wren. Last year and 2008 which was his first full year as GM.

Hart and Co. have already adamantly decided that we're gutting the team and rebuilding, which is why they're acquiring all these prospects. Acquiring all these prospects in this bulk is not something you do when you're trying to compete every year on a strict budget unless you're Oakland. This isn't the Ted Turner Braves that had money to be top in the league in team payroll + money to outbid for international free agents, + money to throw at big draft prospects. If a 17 year old Andruw Jones was an international free agent right now, do you think the Braves would have the resources to bid for him or would it be risky for a franchise that's mid-tier in payroll and wanting to bid on a prospect of his caliber? The Braves were trailblazers in the 90's for international scouting, and other teams have caught on and the teams who now have more money to spend are using it to their advantage like LAD. The Cubs built an academy in the Dominican so they can try and get first dibs on whatever talent they can get their hands on.

I get annoyed by people saying "look at what Wren did to our farm". Wren's priority was to put a competitive team in the window provided around the core while they were still young and cheap. He did that by plugging in players like Gattis, Simmons, Kimbrel, Justin Upton, Wood, etc. Now Hart are doing the same thing the Braves did in 2008. Not try to compete but field a team competitive enough to put a few butts in the seats but not one that's expected to fight for the division, maybe wild card if they can get hot (there's still some great pitching on this team that could carry us). Wait for 2 years (2010 was the year Heyward showed up and the new wave was coming in) and watch your cheap young talent for a few years.

[thethe]

The only real difference from going for it and the "Rebuild" was the Upton and Heyward deals. Gattis would have still been dealt, and the other smaller deals could have still happened.

I think that would have been as much of a mixed signal as signing Markakis while ripping the major lage team apart. I don't think Gattis would have been traded if we went for it.

[thewupk]

To be fair, many posters on this board have been overly negative since Wren was shown the door and Heyward was traded. So historically, these posters have not been negative but recent history has shown a different face.

Becuase the orginzation has done a 180 and punted the current team in hopes of contending down the road. Not many are in favor of that. Rebuilds generally don't happen quickly. So thinking we will contend by 2017 is just wishful thinking imo.

[thethe]

Wren was able to compete primarily because of the talent that was given to him. We had an unbelievable core that was dirt cheap and we weren't able to win one damn playoff series. There is something very wrong with that.

[thethe]

Becuase the orginzation has done a 180 and punted the current team in hopes of contending down the road. Not many are in favor of that. Rebuilds generally don't happen quickly. So thinking we will contend by 2017 is just wishful thinking imo.

Well the brAve fans have enjoyed an unprecedented steing of good baseball in terms of longevity. I am not here because the Braves are food. I'm here because I root for the laundry regardless of how they do year to year what I can't deal with is a team as lifeless as the team was last year. Now I know the team will be even worse but it will be different mindset watching the team through the lens of which players can be good by 2017. I'm looking forward to it.

[Perfect Cell]

I think that would have been as much of a mixed signal as signing Markakis while ripping the major lage team apart. I don't think Gattis would have been traded if we went for it.

I meant trading in 2016.


you go for it then when upton and heyward leave and you get picks... then you deal gattis/lastella/ect the other deals we did make this year... you make them in 2016. You also deal Kimbrel. Who the braves plan on keeping now.

[Julio3000]

The number of seasons played is irrelevant since that stat is an AVERAGE.

Yes, but if your argument is that Markakis could be considered a better hitter than Heyward based on career stats, the answer is that
a)you may be right
b) it's purely academic.

I'm glad we got a position prospect back for Gattis. I'm also glad that snagging Ruiz and the Petersons seems to indicate that we're going to punch CJ's ticket out of town. I hope that he BABIPs his way back to respectability and bring some value in return.

[thethe]

I meant trading in 2016.


you go for it then when upton and heyward leave and you get picks... then you deal gattis/lastella/ect the other deals we did make this year... you make them in 2016. You also deal Kimbrel. Who the braves plan on keeping now.

Holding gattis for another season was playing with fire. I'm not saying your idea is bad but it's risky he further hurts himself. Now felt like the right time to cash in.

[50PoundHead]

I would have started the rebuild a few years ago with Heyward and Freeman as the primary core pieces going forward. There's still no guarantee that Heyward wouldn't have tested free agency, but since the late-JS years, we've always been a team on the edge of the playoffs with some noticeable flaws. I think the acquisition of Uggla, the signing of Melvin, and the trade for Justin all looked good on paper, but I think they delayed the inevitable given the budget constraints.

As for 2015, we lost 400 quality innings and Santana and Harang are now knocking down a combined $18.5 MM for 2015. Could we have adequately replaced them and fit our budget?

I still don't get the Markakis signing. I think the return for Heyward is actually pretty decent, but I'm disappointed in the return for Justin Upton (although Fried could turn out to be a great acquisition).

[MadduxFanII]

Wren was able to compete primarily because of the talent that was given to him. We had an unbelievable core that was dirt cheap and we weren't able to win one damn playoff series. There is something very wrong with that.

First, Wren was a key part of the organization when that talent was acquired, so you can't just wave away the success he had so blithely.

Second, John Schuerholz and Bobby Cox, granting their many and manifest accomplishments, are not the guys who need to be judging anyone on a lack of postseason success. Wren was the GM for seven seasons and won 0 postseason series, which is not good. On the other hand, in the last seven years of Schuerholz's tenure we won...one postseason series, in 2001, whereupon we got eviscerated by the Diamondbacks in the LCS. Hurray?

And if you figure that Wren probably shouldn't be blamed too much for the 08 team, you're talking a six-year run where the team was really "his." And in the last six years of Schuerholz's tenure (02-07), we won...zero postseason series. And yet Schuerholz is still trusted to hire and fire people.

Third, even if we grant that Wren was the slavering monster and paste-eating dunce he's been portrayed as, it's not as though he took over the organization through a coup d'etat. He was Schuerholz's hand-picked successor. So what does that say about Schuerholz's ability to evaluate executive talent, and why does he get a chance to hire a second GM when Wren wasn't given the chance to hire a second manager?

[thewupk]

Reason why royals didn't become good instantaneously was that they actually brought many young player into big league team and it took time. What Braves can do prior to 17 season is use prospects for trades and become good immediately (see what Padres did this year).

Have a strong farm gives the team options.

I would say the Braves won't trade tons of prospects for rentals but JS is known for doing that so it very well could happen. But then we'd be in the same boat with a good team but a crappy farm. And apparently that is bad.

[The Chosen One]

Reason why royals didn't become good instantaneously was that they actually brought many young player into big league team and it took time. What Braves can do prior to 17 season is use prospects for trades and become good immediately (see what Padres did this year).

Have a strong farm gives the team options.

The Royals were also perennial losers for many years, that allowed them to have all the stockpile talent to trade for major league talent and bring up cheap young players from the farm.

Braves weren't drafting as high as Kansas City every year the last 2 decades.

[The Chosen One]

Third, even if we grant that Wren was the slavering monster and paste-eating dunce he's been portrayed as, it's not as though he took over the organization through a coup d'etat. He was Schuerholz's hand-picked successor. So what does that say about Schuerholz's ability to evaluate executive talent, and why does he get a chance to hire a second GM when Wren wasn't given the chance to hire a second manager?

[Perfect Cell]

I would have started the rebuild a few years ago with Heyward and Freeman as the primary core pieces going forward. There's still no guarantee that Heyward wouldn't have tested free agency, but since the late-JS years, we've always been a team on the edge of the playoffs with some noticeable flaws. I think the acquisition of Uggla, the signing of Melvin, and the trade for Justin all looked good on paper, but I think they delayed the inevitable given the budget constraints.

As for 2015, we lost 400 quality innings and Santana and Harang are now knocking down a combined $18.5 MM for 2015. Could we have adequately replaced them and fit our budget?

I still don't get the Markakis signing. I think the return for Heyward is actually pretty decent, but I'm disappointed in the return for Justin Upton (although Fried could turn out to be a great acquisition).

I was full on with the rebuilding mode when JS decided to go for it and make the Teixera trade. We would have been in a good run had we kept the Elvis Andrus bounty texas got.

[Perfect Cell]

Wren was able to compete primarily because of the talent that was given to him. We had an unbelievable core that was dirt cheap and we weren't able to win one damn playoff series. There is something very wrong with that.

Our current Manager. Whom Hart has kept, and is responsible for, shares plenty blame for that.

[thethe]

First, Wren was a key part of the organization when that talent was acquired, so you can't just wave away the success he had so blithely.

Second, John Schuerholz and Bobby Cox, granting their many and manifest accomplishments, are not the guys who need to be judging anyone on a lack of postseason success. Wren was the GM for seven seasons and won 0 postseason series, which is not good. On the other hand, in the last seven years of Schuerholz's tenure we won...one postseason series, in 2001, whereupon we got eviscerated by the Diamondbacks in the LCS. Hurray?

And if you figure that Wren probably shouldn't be blamed too much for the 08 team, you're talking a six-year run where the team was really "his." And in the last six years of Schuerholz's tenure (02-07), we won...zero postseason series. And yet Schuerholz is still trusted to hire and fire people.

Third, even if we grant that Wren was the slavering monster and paste-eating dunce he's been portrayed as, it's not as though he took over the organization through a coup d'etat. He was Schuerholz's hand-picked successor. So what does that say about Schuerholz's ability to evaluate executive talent, and why does he get a chance to hire a second GM when Wren wasn't given the chance to hire a second manager?

All fair points but my switch on Wren was made when it was clear he pushed Clark and his guys out the door. The farm stopped producing a plentiful amount of major league ready players and that had to stop.