I tend to think Lincoln is a bit overrated like most icons but this is a goood quote

[The Chosen One]

Would love to see the argument for how JFK was a better president than Lincoln.

People who poo-poo Lincoln's legacy (or who claim the Civil War was not about slavery, for that matter) tend to be from southern states, and are great examples of how the systemic racism of yesteryear still affects today. Some schools still teach the alternate-history southern-victimization revisionism popularized in the early 1900s, just merely due to inertia. A lot of that garbage just never gets updated.

Co-worker invited me to a "Daughtersof the Confederacy" get together one time. The revisionist history and the "what really happened" stuff is pretty weird.

[Hawk]

People who poo-poo Lincoln's legacy

I might literally poo-poo all over Lincoln's legacy if I were racist, but it's much easier for me to pooh-pooh the fact that it (his legacy) is based 100% around the Civil War and ended (granted, prematurely) with Reconstruction.

[The Chosen One]

I might literally poo-poo all over Lincoln's legacy if I were racist, but it's much easier for me to pooh-pooh the fact that it (his legacy) is based 100% around the Civil War and ended (granted, prematurely) with Reconstruction.

We don't know what could've happened because Lincoln never got a shot to fix things after.

[Hawk]

We don't know what could've happened because Lincoln never got a shot to fix things after.

True, but not completely. If you choose to look at Reconstruction as having commenced after emancipation in 1863 then we have almost two years of Lincolnian policy (eg., the Ten percent plan) and direction to analyze.

[Oklahomahawk]

We don't know what could've happened because Lincoln never got a shot to fix things after.

Is that a Freudian slip of some sort?

[Oklahomahawk]

True, but not completely. If you choose to look at Reconstruction as having commenced after emancipation in 1863 then we have almost two years of Lincolnian policy (eg., the Ten percent plan) and direction to analyze.

OK just curious but by 1863 are you referring to the Emancipation Proclamation or Lincoln's 10% plan?

[Hawk]

OK just curious but by 1863 are you referring to the Emancipation Proclamation or Lincoln's 10% plan?

Emancipation.

[Julio3000]

Co-worker invited me to a "Daughtersof the Confederacy" get together one time. The revisionist history and the "what really happened" stuff is pretty weird.

Yeah. To follow up on Meta's statement: I had an AP American History teacher who taught that the Civil War was not, in fact, about slavery.

Anyone who lets that travesty escape their lips should be politely corrected at every opportunity.

[cajunrevenge]

I'll say this about Lincoln, he was a hell of a wrestler.

[BedellBrave]

To say whether or not the hicks and country boys were racists (so was the North and even Lincoln's view on black people would be considered racist today) is one thing, but the economic system that supported the South was racist, inhuman, and disgusting. States rights be damned.

Lincoln's ultimate goal was to preserve the Union, but his views eventually became more aligned with the Radical Republicans and Abolitionists over time. Now was it strategic and smack with politically expediency? Sure.

He even supported blacks getting the right to vote/citizenship, which motivated Booth to kill him.

^^^ Yep and the economic and industrial system built in the north was in great part on wealth accumulated from the inhuman, racist, disgusting NE slave-shipping industry. Bastards.

So much not to like about our collective history.

[Gary82]

^^^ Yep and the economic and industrial system built in the north was in great part on wealth accumulated from the inhuman, racist, disgusting NE slave-shipping industry. Bastards.

So much not to like about our collective history.

The Industrial Revolution brought us slave wages, child labor and horrible environments for workers. I'm glad a little socialism was injected into our society.

[50PoundHead]

I'll say this about Lincoln, he was a hell of a wrestler.

Not to mention his fight with Sasquatch.

[The Chosen One]

One big letdown about Lincoln was I always imagined him having a deep, powerful and assertive voice from looking at his pictures and body language/posture.

The voice that DDL did in Lincoln, was apparently about as accurate as historians have read about in books and notes about Lincoln. I remember Doris Kearns Goodwin explaining it on a Sunday morning talkshow around the time the movie came out.

[The Chosen One]

EMancipation didn't free slaves, it was his work to secure the amendment. What he did was ensure the Brits didn't get involved with the Confederacy.

Lincoln is certainly one of the 3 best presidents ever. No other president had to fight a civil war and won it.

What I was referring to in my post above yours was either or (emanc/14th).

[Carp]

Lol negotiating. Lincoln couldn't do anything that would have ended the war. Cause the only way the south would have ended the war was some kind of constitutional amendment allowing slavery. That wasn't happening.

There were 3 results caused by the actions of the south

1. Let them secede. In the end maybe not the worst option. The slave labor method would have almost for sure ruined their economy. And then we could have happily accepted thme back into the union when Mexico or Britain invaded them.

2. Give in to their demands. Not happening. They had no leg to stand on. We had the upper hand.

3. Go to war.

As far as your "call for volunteers" thing, yes that was the last straw for a few states. But it wasn't done without cause. As the confederates refused Lincoln's aid to the FOrt then began attacking it. It's not like the south just said, we're seceding and Lincoln started mustering troops. In fact the opposite happened. the First 7 states to secede then went on to start raising a 100,000 troop army. After the confederates started raising an army, started blockading union forts in the south, and then attacking one of them, what do you think is a rational response from Lincoln? Oh sorry you're cool keep raising an army and attacking us, we'll jsut sit back and try to convince you to stop.

I still love when you said the war wasn't about slavery, that's my favorite.

What negotiations did Lincoln have with the South? Please enlighten me.

The South wanted to be left alone. The South did not want to go to war. They were protecting their homes from an invading army.

And I never once said that slavery was not part of the reason for the War. But states rights was the cause, of which slavery certainly consisted of that.

[Julio3000]

What negotiations did Lincoln have the South? Please enlighten me.

The South wanted to be left alone. The South did not want to go to war. They were protecting their homes from an invading army.

And I never once said that slavery was not part of the reason for the War. But states rights was cause, of which slavery certainly consisted of that.

Yeah, states' rights . . . to own slaves.

[Carp]

Would love to see the argument for how JFK was a better president than Lincoln.

People who poo-poo Lincoln's legacy (or who claim the Civil War was not about slavery, for that matter) tend to be from southern states, and are great examples of how the systemic racism of yesteryear still affects today. Some schools still teach the alternate-history southern-victimization revisionism popularized in the early 1900s, just merely due to inertia. A lot of that garbage just never gets updated.

JFK - Cuban Missile Crisis, Space Race, Peace Corps, laid the groundwork for the Civil Rights Act of 1964.

[The Chosen One]

Yeah, states' rights . . . to own slaves.

Speaking of which, at the Daughters of the Confederacy gathering, they apparently meet up once a month to "make sure everybody knows what really happened".

Also, the common theme there was "If they (North) just left us alone we wouldn't have these problems we have today".

[Julio3000]

^^^ Yep and the economic and industrial system built in the north was in great part on wealth accumulated from the inhuman, racist, disgusting NE slave-shipping industry. Bastards.

So much not to like about our collective history.

I mentioned it in another thread, but it bears repeating: fortunes were made North, South, and overseas on the slave economy. I hope nobody is glossing that over in the discussion. But that's isn't really at issue here.

[Hawk]

I wish that we could step outside of this kind of oversimplified postmodern viewpoint on slavery in the context of the Civil War. I mean, you are seriously going to have trouble finding a sane person who would ever defend slavery -- on any level. However, is it so unfathomable to assert that slavery might have been extinguishable without going to war? We know that abolition was a preeminent issue in the mid-1800s with somewhat broad national support, even in the South. Industrialism was beginning to supplant the agrarian way of life. The tide appeared to be changing, slowly, but surely.

But then you have the war, which came at an enormous cost to the fledgling nation in literally every aspect of its being; lives, money, innovation, global stature, etc. These are effects so profound that they are STILL playing out sociopolitically as well as economically.

Not to detract from the immediate positives of the war, or even to really suggest that Lincoln's strategy wasn't the only path which would have ultimately worked ... it's just sometimes a beneficial academic exploration to revise history.