Kimbrel/Melvin Trade Thread

[Knucksie]

But that fits my narrative. Having a great closer isn't important as it is rolling with the right guy.

Yup, and sometimes you can even get it done with an average guy who gets hot at the right time or at least just get the job done.. It's like hockey. You don't have to have Patrick Roy or Dominick Hasek in goal to win.

[Hawk]

http://www.sfchronicle.com/athletics...st-6182742.php

With Coco Crisp out for a couple of months, Susan Slusser suggests the Athletics might be interested in Carlos Quentin.

[clvclv]

Maybin's biggest obstacle lately seems to be health. He was mildly productive his last heathy season in 2012. Good defense, .300+ OBP, 26 steals. Considering what we've been used to at CF position the last 2 years, those type of numbers would seem like an all-star.

If somehow he can harness his 2011 self, we would be looking a very fine player. I don't expect that, but stranger things have happened.

I'll always preface things by saying I am a serious "homer" when it comes to Maybin and Davidson since they grew up 30 miles from here and a personal friend coached Davidson at T. C. Roberson, and while I don't expect Cameron to be much more than "better than EY" at best, he could still be useful. If we were able to land an everyday CF guy like Bradley or Almora, Maybin could be a pretty useful 4th OF - playing strong defense at all three positions, not being a complete black hole if he needed to play one for a couple weeks if someone were on the DL, very useful bench guy in the new small ball philosophy with his speed and ability to bunt. Of course lots of folks will say "yeah - he's an expensive Jordan Schafer", and I can't disagree with them to an extent other than to point out that Schafer has NEVER become that kind of team first guy. None of us know for sure if he was asked to bunt more often when he was in those situations than he did when he was here, but something always felt like he probably was to me.

For the time being, he does appear to be an upgrade over our current CF options (although I'd have liked to see a bit more of Eury Perez like a lot of people) even before the trade, but given the amount of money he saves us in having Melvin off the books that's good enough for me. I loved hearing Chip and Joe mention that he had taken notice of Seitzer's philosophy even before the trade during the game yesterday, so there's always the hope that he can get back to something close to that earlier season.

[Tapate50]

http://www.sfchronicle.com/athletics...st-6182742.php

With Coco Crisp out for a couple of months, Susan Slusser suggests the Atheltics might be interested in Carlos Quentin.

Quentin and not Maybin?

[clvclv]

Quentin and not Maybin?

They had already moved Coco to LF.

[Knucksie]

http://www.sfchronicle.com/athletics...st-6182742.php

With Coco Crisp out for a couple of months, Susan Slusser suggests the Atheltics might be interested in Carlos Quentin.

Then maybe the Billy Beane fanboys would prefer that the Braves Quentin, if they sense that their idol wants him.

[zitothebrave]

Yup, and sometimes you can even get it done with an average guy who gets hot at the right time or at least just get the job done.. It's like hockey. You don't have to have Patrick Roy or Dominick Hasek in goal to win.

The Devils will say that it desn't hurt to have Marty Brodeur though

[Knucksie]

The Devils will say that it desn't hurt to have Marty Brodeur though

At least one of those years, Brodeur won the Vezina because of Scott Stevens!

[zitothebrave]

At least one of those years, Brodeur won the Vezina because of Scott Stevens!

Scott Stevens was a machine. He couldn't exist in modern hockey. He would be constantly fined and suspended. The old school style of play is gone.

[yeezus]

Scott Stevens was a machine. He couldn't exist in modern hockey. He would be constantly fined and suspended. The old school style of play is gone.

Yup, I was watching highlights of his a couple weeks back and every hit was illegal in today's game.

[zitothebrave]

Yup, I was watching highlights of his a couple weeks back and every hit was illegal in today's game.

I think when he retired Sportscenter did a top 10 of his biggest hits, and it should have been called the 10 worst concussions Stevens gave anyone.

[50PoundHead]

For the record, I'm with Knucksie on the whole closer thing. Kimbrel--like Mariano Rivera, Trevor Hoffman, and a few others--is on another planet, but what makes a closer elite? Jim Johnson was an elite closer for two years in Baltimore before tanking last year. Jason Grilli had a great year as a closer in Pittsburgh. It's a position that can be all about someone getting the hot hand and the manager riding that guy. Some teams are more closer-centric than others in that they really stress the position and identify/ride a guy in that role. The Twins under Tom Kelly and Ron Gardenhire were that model to a T. Braves of the 1990s really cycled through guys with regularity. Giants have done that recently as well.

Now is a guy like Kimbrel extremely valuable? He certainly is, especially in the post-season. But I don't know how many wins that actually translates to in the regular season. One or two? Ten? That measure is dependent on a lot of things. I will say that as team performance improves, the reliability of the closer takes on increased importance because one or two games can mean that you're in or out of the playoffs. I don't think the Braves will be worried about that this season.

[Tapate50]

They had already moved Coco to LF.

Maybin can't play LF? or be a better 4th OF?

[Knucksie]

Scott Stevens was a machine. He couldn't exist in modern hockey. He would be constantly fined and suspended. The old school style of play is gone.

Don't think he even got an elbowing minor on this play.

[zitothebrave]

Don't think he even got an elbowing minor on this play.

He never did because he led with his shoulder then pushed off with his elbow. Clean and best way to hit someone. Lindros was caught in the number 1 sin in hockey, head down with Scott Stevens on the ice. His hit on Paul Kariya is just devastating.

[Knucksie]

For the record, I'm with Knucksie on the whole closer thing. Kimbrel--like Mariano Rivera, Trevor Hoffman, and a few others--is on another planet, but what makes a closer elite? Jim Johnson was an elite closer for two years in Baltimore before tanking last year. Jason Grilli had a great year as a closer in Pittsburgh. It's a position that can be all about someone getting the hot hand and the manager riding that guy. Some teams are more closer-centric than others in that they really stress the position and identify/ride a guy in that role. The Twins under Tom Kelly and Ron Gardenhire were that model to a T. Braves of the 1990s really cycled through guys with regularity. Giants have done that recently as well.

Now is a guy like Kimbrel extremely valuable? He certainly is, especially in the post-season. But I don't know how many wins that actually translates to in the regular season. One or two? Ten? That measure is dependent on a lot of things. I will say that as team performance improves, the reliability of the closer takes on increased importance because one or two games can mean that you're in or out of the playoffs. I don't think the Braves will be worried about that this season.

Organizations have been realizing this for quite a few years now. It's not just the closer role, but GM's feel that they can construct effective bullpens with reasonable budgets by a combination of young pre-arb relievers & inexpensive vets. It's also why these elite closers haven't typically been huge commodities on the FA market. John Wetteland was an example, and Rivera probably learned A LOT from him before assuming the role with the Yankees. Wetteland didn't necessarily make the Rangers better at that time, and they'd experimented with Tom Henke too, and that didn't translate into improvement in the standings. Oh, and Wetteland was somebody Schuerholz attempted to acquire in the Expos fire sale before the Yankees got him. Marquis Grissom was who was left, which didn't turn out too badly.

[50PoundHead]

Organizations have been realizing this for quite a few years now. It's not just the closer role, but GM's feel that they can construct effective bullpens with reasonable budgets by a combination of young pre-arb relievers & inexpensive vets. It's also why these elite closers haven't typically been huge commodities on the FA market. John Wetteland was an example, and Rivera probably learned A LOT from him before assuming the role with the Yankees. Wetteland didn't necessarily make the Rangers better at that time, and they'd experimented with Tom Henke too, and that didn't translate into improvement in the standings. Oh, and Wetteland was somebody Schuerholz attempted to acquire in the Expos fire sale before the Yankees got him. Marquis Grissom was who was left, which didn't turn out too badly.

Having watched the Twins up close as long as I have, the organizational strategy has always been to stress the closer role (not working too well lately). Tom Kelly always talked about the psychological strength a closer brings to the team; that when you bring in the closer, your guys feel the game is over in your favor and it's a fluke if it doesn't happen that way. Ron Davis was Kelly's first closer and RD (father of Ike Davis) was fairly shaky. Kelly was always a "win the games you're supposed to win" guy and he didn't want to let any games leak out of the win column. After Davis, they had Reardon, Aguilera, Guardado, Hawkins Nathan, and Perkins (with a couple of guys sprinkled in) and in almost every year, the role was established early and maintained throughout the season.

But the Twins are the exception to the rule for the most part.

[Knucksie]

Having watched the Twins up close as long as I have, the organizational strategy has always been to stress the closer role (not working too well lately). Tom Kelly always talked about the psychological strength a closer brings to the team; that when you bring in the closer, your guys feel the game is over in your favor and it's a fluke if it doesn't happen that way. Ron Davis was Kelly's first closer and RD (father of Ike Davis) was fairly shaky. Kelly was always a "win the games you're supposed to win" guy and he didn't want to let any games leak out of the win column. After Davis, they had Reardon, Aguilera, Guardado, Hawkins Nathan, and Perkins (with a couple of guys sprinkled in) and in almost every year, the role was established early and maintained throughout the season.

But the Twins are the exception to the rule for the most part.

Aguilera, another "almost Brave." Unless memory fails, it was actually the Twins who converted him into a closer. Think the Mets had mostly always used him as a starter, except for when he first came up.

This discussion got me thinking back to the "dark days." If people here complain about the FO now, think of what it was like 30 years ago. Going into the '85 season, just as they were about to enter a 1/2 decade of ineptitude, somebody (Ted?) decided that the Braves needed the elite/All World closer Bruce Sutter. He caught Bell's Palsy along with other ailments and hardly pitched for the Braves. What would he have saved in '86? Good question!

In the meantime, somebody had the brainfart to convert Steve Bedrosian into a starter. Duh. That didn't pan out, and he was sent to the Phillies for Ozzie Virgil. Bedrock won a Cy Young as a closer (not a common occurrence). So, at least the current FO is rational, with Kimbrel, in that somebody of this caliber is a luxury.

[Carp]

I'm not interested in debating with you, because you try to misconstrue my post. Uhahru (sp.?) is not of the caliber of Hoffman.

Now you've wasted enough of my time. Another addition to the ignore list.

Oh no the dreaded ignore list.

What a child you are. If you can't take being wrong then you are going to have everyone on ignore and you won't see anything in this site.

Uhera finished 7th in Cy Young voting in 2013 when the Sox won it by the way.

[50PoundHead]

Aguilera, another "almost Brave." Unless memory fails, it was actually the Twins who converted him into a closer. Think the Mets had mostly always used him as a starter, except for when he first came up.

This discussion got me thinking back to the "dark days." If people here complain about the FO now, think of what it was like 30 years ago. Going into the '85 season, just as they were about to enter a 1/2 decade of ineptitude, somebody (Ted?) decided that the Braves needed the elite/All World closer Bruce Sutter. He caught Bell's Palsy along with other ailments and hardly pitched for the Braves. What would he have saved in '86? Good question!

In the meantime, somebody had the brainfart to convert Steve Bedrosian into a starter. Duh. That didn't pan out, and he was sent to the Phillies for Ozzie Virgil. Bedrock won a Cy Young as a closer (not a common occurrence). So, at least the current FO is rational, with Kimbrel, in that somebody of this caliber is a luxury.

Your recollections match mine.