REAL FOOTBALL Thread

[Carp]

Sorry, but Calvin Johnson is better than TO or Moss. I've never seen a guy triple teamed before and still not be stoppable. Dude was a cheat code.

[chop2chip]

Greatest tight ends is Tony G, Gronkowski, and Kelce in some order.

Probably recency bias, but I would lean Kelce based on his playoff performances. But I get the argument for Gonzalez given he’s the only one of those 3 that didn’t have a HOF quarterback.

[zitothebrave]

Sorry, but Calvin Johnson is better than TO or Moss. I've never seen a guy triple teamed before and still not be stoppable. Dude was a cheat code.

You must not remember Randy Moss at the start of his career. Randy to start his career was the ultimate cheat code. He was so fast, he caught everything. Johnson didn't have amazing hands. It was his one dogged point.

Don't get me wrong, Megatron is a freaky talented player. I can easily see you wanting him over TO. Easily. But Randy is the greatest. I went with TO because there's no one in the history of the NFL who was better after the catch than TO. If TO has Jerry or Randy's hands he'd be the GOAT because no one was stronger and faster than him. Some may have been stronger, some may have been faster but he was a beast the number of highlights where he would be dead to rights and just break a tackle or 2.

[zitothebrave]

Greatest tight ends is Tony G, Gronkowski, and Kelce in some order.

Probably recency bias, but I would lean Kelce based on his playoff performances. But I get the argument for Gonzalez given he’s the only one of those 3 that didn’t have a HOF quarterback.

I mean that's a bit harsh to Tony G's QBs.

KC had Trent Green who wa sa good QB. ANd he had Matt Ryan for the last 4 years. And Ryan is quite likely a HOF QB. He won't get in right away, but he's on pace to be better than the Average HOF QB. If Rivers gets in Ryan is a lock.

[chop2chip]

I mean that's a bit harsh to Tony G's QBs.

KC had Trent Green who wa sa good QB. ANd he had Matt Ryan for the last 4 years. And Ryan is quite likely a HOF QB. He won't get in right away, but he's on pace to be better than the Average HOF QB. If Rivers gets in Ryan is a lock.

Brady > Mahomes > ….












> Ryan




> Green

[zitothebrave]

Brady is the GOAT.

Ryan and Mahomes are much closer right now. Mahomes could wind up being the best to play the game. But we don't know his trajectory to put him on the same plane as Brady.

Also I agree Green is way below Ryan. But he's not a bum. It's not like he had Akili Smith throwing to him.

[zitothebrave]

I wonder if Aaron Rodgers would restructure his contract to be traded. Cause there's no way in hell Greenbay can trade him until next year otherwise and he doesn't have many years left.

[Carp]

Matt Ryan getting into the HOF would be a joke in this era.

[zitothebrave]

Matt Ryan getting into the HOF would be a joke in this era.

We'll see how things shake it out. With still some years to likely play. As of right now Ryan ranks 7th all time in passing yards and 9th all time in Passing TDs. ANd with like 1 more season as a fulltime starter he'll move 5th all time in Yards. ANd with one or 2 more will likely jump more in Yards.

As I said if RIvers gets in Ryan is a lock. If Rivers is held out Ryan is in doubt. Sure there's a chance he won't get in. But you're critically underrating Ryan.

[NinersSBChamps]

I wonder if Aaron Rodgers would restructure his contract to be traded. Cause there's no way in hell Greenbay can trade him until next year otherwise and he doesn't have many years left.

I am going to say no. He doesn’t strike me as the type of person who would make any sort of concessions.

[Oklahomahawk]

Time for a discussion while waiting for the big game. What's your all time Starting 25, we're looking for 11 on offense 11 on defense a punter, kicker, and return man.

QB - Brady - Easy pencil in, he owns basically every record there is.
RB - Barry Sanders - Hard debate here, lots of quality players here but Barry gets the edge because he played on miserable teams that he carried.
WR1 - Randy Moss - No more talented player in NFL history. Cannot convince me otherwise, fast, strong, big tall and hands like glue. Only fault, he wasn't great at running routes.
WR 2- Jerry Rice - Hard to argue against him, he's an all timer. I almost put Megatron here. But it's kind of redundant with Moss.
WR 3 - TO - There's no better after the catch man than TO. I would imagine him ruining people as a slot receiver.
TE - Tony Gonzalez - No real debate here, Gronk was probably the more dominant TE but Tony was a legend.
LT - Anthony Munoz - You can have a debate between where you play him and Matthews but they're the 2 greatest
LG - Randall McDaniel - I think there's 3 guys you have a debate at guard, the 2 I picked and Larry Allen.
C - Jason Kelce - Risk of recency bias, dont' care.
RG - Will Shields - He was a rock.
RT - Bruce Matthews

DE - Reggie White - Those who know, know, white was a beast and a half.
DT - Alan Page - not many defensive players have an MVP award.
DT - Aaron DOnald - COntroversial pick, I don't care, he's a beast. Best defensive player of the last decade
DE - Bruce Smith.
OLB - LT - The GOAT
MLB - Ray Lewis - Ok controversial for sure. Almost anyone else puts Butkus here, especially since Ray Lewis was a 3-4 MLB.
OLB - Derrick Thomas - Spicy pick, but I loved him. Derrick Brooks was my other, but I loved Thomas, he was a freak even if he was more of a passrusher than anything else
CB - Deion - Legendary.
CB - Rod Woodson - So good he slowed down from corner and became an elite Safety.
S - Ronnie Lott
S - Ed Reed - Lott and Reed get the overall nod, other guys like Dawkins and Polamalu just lose out, I'm sure there's some old timers I'm neglecting, but Football didn't really get good until the 70s and 80s so of course I"m skewing that way.

K - Adam Vinatieri - IMO he and Anderson (Morten) are the most likely picks. But you could argue others in here. Current guys like Tucker are building impressive resumes. L:ots of options here, but to me it's either the most clutch kicker in NFL history or the most prolific in the lower scoring eras.
P - Shane Lechler - I'm sure there's an old head who could be discussed here, but I'm going with Lechler, he's a beast.

Returner - Devin Hester - THis one I struggled with, there's lots of options. But Hester is GOAT at punt returning and it came down to which you value more, in the modern NFL most kicks go deep in the endzone so I'd rather have a strong punt returner.

Time for a discussion while waiting for the big game. What's your all time Starting 25, we're looking for 11 on offense 11 on defense a punter, kicker, and return man.

QB - Brady - Easy pencil in, he owns basically every record there is.
RB - Barry Sanders - Hard debate here, lots of quality players here but Barry gets the edge because he played on miserable teams that he carried.
WR1 - Randy Moss - No more talented player in NFL history. Cannot convince me otherwise, fast, strong, big tall and hands like glue. Only fault, he wasn't great at running routes.
WR 2- Jerry Rice - Hard to argue against him, he's an all timer. I almost put Megatron here. But it's kind of redundant with Moss.
WR 3 - TO - There's no better after the catch man than TO. I would imagine him ruining people as a slot receiver.
TE - Tony Gonzalez - No real debate here, Gronk was probably the more dominant TE but Tony was a legend.
LT - Anthony Munoz - You can have a debate between where you play him and Matthews but they're the 2 greatest
LG - Randall McDaniel - I think there's 3 guys you have a debate at guard, the 2 I picked and Larry Allen.
C - Jason Kelce - Risk of recency bias, dont' care.
RG - Will Shields - He was a rock.
RT - Bruce Matthews

DE - Reggie White - Those who know, know, white was a beast and a half.
DT - Alan Page - not many defensive players have an MVP award.
DT - Aaron DOnald - COntroversial pick, I don't care, he's a beast. Best defensive player of the last decade
DE - Bruce Smith.
OLB - LT - The GOAT
MLB - Ray Lewis - Ok controversial for sure. Almost anyone else puts Butkus here, especially since Ray Lewis was a 3-4 MLB.
OLB - Derrick Thomas - Spicy pick, but I loved him. Derrick Brooks was my other, but I loved Thomas, he was a freak even if he was more of a passrusher than anything else
CB - Deion - Legendary.
CB - Rod Woodson - So good he slowed down from corner and became an elite Safety.
S - Ronnie Lott
S - Ed Reed - Lott and Reed get the overall nod, other guys like Dawkins and Polamalu just lose out, I'm sure there's some old timers I'm neglecting, but Football didn't really get good until the 70s and 80s so of course I"m skewing that way.

K - Adam Vinatieri - IMO he and Anderson (Morten) are the most likely picks. But you could argue others in here. Current guys like Tucker are building impressive resumes. L:ots of options here, but to me it's either the most clutch kicker in NFL history or the most prolific in the lower scoring eras.
P - Shane Lechler - I'm sure there's an old head who could be discussed here, but I'm going with Lechler, he's a beast.

Returner - Devin Hester - THis one I struggled with, there's lots of options. But Hester is GOAT at punt returning and it came down to which you value more, in the modern NFL most kicks go deep in the endzone so I'd rather have a strong punt returner.

I can't really argue with most of your picks. My one main point of contention is that there are very few of the old school players on your list. I may list a few just to be a devil's advocate, not to refute your choices.

QB-can't really argue with Brady, though some old school guys that deserve at least some love, Unitas, Staubach, modern day I'd say only Mahomes or possibly Burrow has a chance to replace him
TE-can't argue with Tony G, Gronk may have had a chance had he not kinda bowed himself out after Brady left and only one year in Tampa
RB-love Sanders and as a Cowboys fan I definitely love me some Emmitt Smith, but IMO any RB "greatest of all time" list that doesn't have Jim Brown at the top may be a little bit suspect
WR1-Moss was great but as you pointed out he wasn't a great route runner so he just beat a lot of guys with pure athletic ability so that maybe takes him down about 1/2 of a peg maybe. Still great but
WR2-Can't argue with Rice, you know the Cowboys were going to draft him that year, and went through all the motions of "eh he's good but he ain't that good", but SF treaded up to get him
WR3-TO was great but such a douchebag personally I hate to pick him, Lynn Swann maybe, some old school guys, Charley Taylor, Paul Warfield, maybe even a Lance Alworth or maybe even a John Stallworth
LT-can't argue with Munoz, but Boselli was pretty good too
LG-McDaniel was good but I'll take Larry Allen all day long on this one
C-Kelce's really good but I'm sure there are others, I just don't have the time to research it right now. Still OK with Kelce though
RG-Shields is good, no argument
RT-Matthews is good as well, no argument

DL-Agree, Reggie White, best ever....period
DL-Page was good, I'll still say Bob Lilly was the best ever, Randy White was way better than he gets credit for
DL-I have no problem with Aaron Donald
DE-Bruce Smith, maybe a Too Tall Jones
LB-LT, not sure how anybody could argue with this one
LB-Ray Lewis was great and don't you guys ever tell him I said otherwise, if you follow me
LB-I liked Derrick Thomas too, but too many old school guys need to be in here, Butkus, Nietsche (sp?), Urlacher for that matter
CB-Prime for sure
CB-lots of good choices here, Revis, Patrick Peterson, Sherman, Darrell Green. I guess from that group I'd go with Revis or Peterson, maybe an honorable mention for Sherman
S-Lott
S-Reed
S-Personally I think Woodson was a better safety than a CB but that's just me
K-Fine with Vinatieri, but Tucker will be the GOAT here if he isn't already
P-Lechler was great but what about Ray Guy?
Returner-Hester, not sure how anybody else is even in the discussion on this one.

[Oklahomahawk]

I am going to say no. He doesn’t strike me as the type of person who would make any sort of concessions.

yeah that's an understatement. I'm afraid AR started to believe his press clippings too much and conveniently ignored or forgot all those phantom defensive holding and defensive pass interference calls he got over the years as well. Great QB sure, not GOAT IMO though

[Carp]

We'll see how things shake it out. With still some years to likely play. As of right now Ryan ranks 7th all time in passing yards and 9th all time in Passing TDs. ANd with like 1 more season as a fulltime starter he'll move 5th all time in Yards. ANd with one or 2 more will likely jump more in Yards.

As I said if RIvers gets in Ryan is a lock. If Rivers is held out Ryan is in doubt. Sure there's a chance he won't get in. But you're critically underrating Ryan.

Ryan isn't a full time starter anymore. I wouldn't be surprised to see him retire rather than be another Andy Dalton or Joe Flacco.

[zitothebrave]

Ryan isn't a full time starter anymore. I wouldn't be surprised to see him retire rather than be another Andy Dalton or Joe Flacco.

Again even without playing 1 more game, he's better than the average HOF QB. He's better than Rivers.

I think he still has time as a starter. Hell it's likely he starts for Indy next year as they draft a QB and his job is to run the offense while then new QB gets ready. Ryan isn't as bad as he played last year, that was a product of a ****ty season for the colts in terms of luck, health and coaching.

[NinersSBChamps]

I think any list with safety should have Sean Taylor in it. Splitting hairs obviously, but Taylor was just do dynamic.

[zitothebrave]

I think any list with safety should have Sean Taylor in it. Splitting hairs obviously, but Taylor was just do dynamic.

Nah, Sean Taylor was great, but he wasn't as Good as Weapon X, and he wasn't close to Lott or Reed,

And I mean the problem with Taylor too is his life ended before we could see him round his career out.

[Carp]

Again even without playing 1 more game, he's better than the average HOF QB. He's better than Rivers.

I think he still has time as a starter. Hell it's likely he starts for Indy next year as they draft a QB and his job is to run the offense while then new QB gets ready. Ryan isn't as bad as he played last year, that was a product of a ****ty season for the colts in terms of luck, health and coaching.

Different eras. He isn't remotely close to the level of pre-2000 HOFers like Marino, Elway, Montana, etc. HOFers are judged on how they compare to their peers. Ryan is probably 7th or 8th minimum among the 2000 era QBs. Not a HOF.

[zitothebrave]

Different eras. He isn't remotely close to the level of pre-2000 HOFers like Marino, Elway, Montana, etc. HOFers are judged on how they compare to their peers. Ryan is probably 7th or 8th minimum among the 2000 era QBs. Not a HOF.

Name 7 better.

Brady, Brees, Peyton, Rodgers, then a bunch of debates. Even Rodgers is kind of a debate. Don't get me wrong, Rodgers is better to me by a lot but someone coudl maybe argue Ryan as I think the difference in regular season play isn't that massive.

[Heyward]

Name 7 better.

Brady, Brees, Peyton, Rodgers, then a bunch of debates. Even Rodgers is kind of a debate. Don't get me wrong, Rodgers is better to me by a lot but someone coudl maybe argue Ryan as I think the difference in regular season play isn't that massive.

Brady, Brees, Peyton, Rodgers, Ben, Stafford, Rivers, there's 7. Couple others out there as well. And Rodgers has some of the best numbers ever in the regular season, no one could think that.

[zitothebrave]

Ryan is better than Rivers and right now is better than Stafford.

Here's 3 players.

Player A 191 Starts 63.2 Comp% 52082 yards 6.49 NY/A 333 TD 169 INT

Player B 247 Starts 64.4 Comp% 64088 yards 6.71 NY/A 418 Td 211 INT

Player C 234 Starts 65.6 Comp% 62792 yards 6.58 NY/A 381 TD 183 INT

Player D 240 Starts 64.9 Comp% 63440 yards 7.05 NY/A 421 TD 209 INT

Is there one you can for sure say is clear cut better than the others? I mean there's one I'd certainly put at the bottom .