REAL FOOTBALL Thread

[zitothebrave]

It's tough to gauge running and the value it adds. Looking at hard data, Kaepernick rushed for 524 yards. averaging 5.7 Y/C Neither of those numbers are great. But for a team like the Niners you'd assume that would hold a different value.

Overall Ryan was still a better QB. according to FO Kaepernick and Ryan were 70 points apart rushing in DYAR and Ryan was 300 points up in passing. Now Kaepernick I know has a higher DVOA but we've discussed this already ad nauseum, there's a ton of value in being able to make more plays.

[thethe]

It's tough to gauge running and the value it adds. Looking at hard data, Kaepernick rushed for 524 yards. averaging 5.7 Y/C Neither of those numbers are great. But for a team like the Niners you'd assume that would hold a different value.

Overall Ryan was still a better QB. according to FO Kaepernick and Ryan were 70 points apart rushing in DYAR and Ryan was 300 points up in passing. Now Kaepernick I know has a higher DVOA but we've discussed this already ad nauseum, there's a ton of value in being able to make more plays.

Sure there is value to that but if you aren't given the opportunity to make those plays you don't know if he could make it. It also doesn't help Kaeps numbers that he plays against the best defensive division in football and while SF is a beautiful place to play football it isn't indoors. If Kaep doesn't have a big time year this year with all the weapons he has (assuming full health all year or at least partial health) then I will agree with you. But, once the guys started getting healthy last year he was great. I mean, the guy did more against the Seahawks in Seattle than the great Peyton Manning did on a neutral field.

[zitothebrave]

Sure there is value to that but if you aren't given the opportunity to make those plays you don't know if he could make it. It also doesn't help Kaeps numbers that he plays against the best defensive division in football and while SF is a beautiful place to play football it isn't indoors. If Kaep doesn't have a big time year this year with all the weapons he has (assuming full health all year or at least partial health) then I will agree with you. But, once the guys started getting healthy last year he was great. I mean, the guy did more against the Seahawks in Seattle than the great Peyton Manning did on a neutral field.

Ryan played the toughest schedule of any QB. Ryan's opponents DVOA was -6.4 Kaepernick's -4.6.

And the whole dome thing is drastically overblown. In the world of advanced metrics that factor largely is downplayed. People point to splits, ignoring that 99% of the time of course a QB will perform worse on the road. Dome or no dome. When the Falcons move to their outdoor stadium in a few years. Ryan will still be amazing. Because Ryan is an outstanding QB. Dome or no dome.

[thethe]

How can it be overblown to say that a QB who plays 9 of their games in guaranteed perfect conditions doesn't have an advantage against a guy that plays all of their games in the northeast (for example). You're smarter than this Zito.

[zitothebrave]

Because he's facing guys with the same disadvantage. Dome effects haven't been eliminated in the same regard as say park factors in baseball. But they're accounted for in the right stats.

Also look at Peyton Manning. He was a dome QB, then he moved to Denver, and did his numbers take a hit?

[thethe]

Because he's facing guys with the same disadvantage. Dome effects haven't been eliminated in the same regard as say park factors in baseball. But they're accounted for in the right stats.

Also look at Peyton Manning. He was a dome QB, then he moved to Denver, and did his numbers take a hit?

Peyton Manning just had one of the greatest collection of talent at the WR/TE position ever. Thats a horrible example.

[zitothebrave]

Peyton Manning just had one of the greatest collection of talent at the WR/TE position ever. Thats a horrible example.

He did in Indy as well. What do you call Wayne, Harrison, James, Clark, Pollard and Stokely?

[thethe]

He did in Indy as well. What do you call Wayne, Harrison, James, Clark, Pollard and Stokely?

Not Thomas/Welker/Dekker/Thomas.

And, the league is much different now with the rules slanted towards passing so that needs to be considered.

[zitothebrave]

Not Thomas/Welker/Dekker/Thomas.

And, the league is much different now with the rules slanted towards passing so that needs to be considered.

So having a team with 2 Hall of Fame WRs, a borderline HOF RB, 2 quality to great TEs and a solid slot guy can't beat out, Decker, a guy who as a rookie couldn't push Jabar Gaffney or Eddie Royal out of the way. Maybe he's the type of WR who's made by his QB. He didn't do dick under Tebow. Thomas in his less snaps almost passed Decker who started most of the year. Demarius is a star in the making, but is he for sure better than Harrison or Wayne? If you think so you're basically saying Thomas is a HOF lock. Julius Thomas is not for sure better than Clark. Infact I would guess he and Welker are the 2 who benefit the most from Peyton.With Julius and Welker, one of them is likely not getting safety attention which sets the 2 of them up for success.

And a very valid point about the passing environment. There's also a crucial point though about Peyton's age and health. When he was in his mid-late 20s he was a poster child for health. Now he's nursing all kinds of injuries and still putting up numbers.

[NinersSBChamps]

Running from a quarterback is extremely valuable. It is hard to gauge thouh as Zito said. Use the NFCCG in Seattle. The only reason why the 49ers had a chance to win that game was because of Kaepernick did on the ground.

[yeezus]

There is no way Kaep is better player right now than Ryan. Bus driver vs. team MVP.

[NinersSBChamps]

There is no way Kaep is better player right now than Ryan. Bus driver vs. team MVP.

Ryan is a better quarterback right now, but Kaepernick means much more to the 49ers and is a better overall player.

[BRule]

Ryan is a better quarterback right now, but Kaepernick means much more to the 49ers and is a better overall player.

I would disagree.....you take Ryan out and put X at QB they aren't winning 3 games. You put X on the 49ers and they still win 5-6 games.

*X = any random average QB

[thethe]

I would agree with Brule. Falcons had a crap team around Ryan last year while the 49ers still had a very good defense and excellent special teams unit.

[Krovahn]

Personally, I don't think these guys:
Wilson
Kaep
Smith
Newton
Are better than Ryan. Also, Dalton, Cutler and Smith over Romo? No chance.
Luck will be better than Ryan this season, if he isn't already.

Romo is ridiculously overrated. He isn't good.

[Krovahn]

So having a team with 2 Hall of Fame WRs, a borderline HOF RB, 2 quality to great TEs and a solid slot guy can't beat out, Decker, a guy who as a rookie couldn't push Jabar Gaffney or Eddie Royal out of the way. Maybe he's the type of WR who's made by his QB. He didn't do dick under Tebow. Thomas in his less snaps almost passed Decker who started most of the year. Demarius is a star in the making, but is he for sure better than Harrison or Wayne? If you think so you're basically saying Thomas is a HOF lock. Julius Thomas is not for sure better than Clark. Infact I would guess he and Welker are the 2 who benefit the most from Peyton.With Julius and Welker, one of them is likely not getting safety attention which sets the 2 of them up for success.

And a very valid point about the passing environment. There's also a crucial point though about Peyton's age and health. When he was in his mid-late 20s he was a poster child for health. Now he's nursing all kinds of injuries and still putting up numbers.

Lol, James as a borderline HoF RB. ..and you questioned my statements? Jeez.

[thethe]

Romo is ridiculously overrated. He isn't good.

I hate to go against a fellow niner fan but I can't disagree more. Romo is actually a damn good QB. Yes, he has his hiccups but Dallas has really screwed up that team and if Romo doesn't carry the team they don't win. It seems they are doing a better job at building in the trenches which will make his life easier. I don't think Romo is elite but he is in that 5-10 range in my eyes.

[Krovahn]

I hate to go against a fellow niner fan but I can't disagree more. Romo is actually a damn good QB. Yes, he has his hiccups but Dallas has really screwed up that team and if Romo doesn't carry the team they don't win. It seems they are doing a better job at building in the trenches which will make his life easier. I don't think Romo is elite but he is in that 5-10 range in my eyes.

Agree to disagree. I am in NYG territory, so I am essentially forced to watch him twice a year, minimum, then add on any Sunday/Monday night games... I rarely seem him play decently. It could just be he happens to suck on the games I watch, but, I feel he is lower than all of the QBs I listed.

[NinersSBChamps]

I hate to go against a fellow niner fan but I can't disagree more. Romo is actually a damn good QB. Yes, he has his hiccups but Dallas has really screwed up that team and if Romo doesn't carry the team they don't win. It seems they are doing a better job at building in the trenches which will make his life easier. I don't think Romo is elite but he is in that 5-10 range in my eyes.

He is a very good quarterback. He isn't in that elite group, but he is on the next tier and may even be at the top of that level.

[gilesfan]

Romo is a good QB. There is no doubt about it.