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Thread: Star Wars Discussion Thread (Spoilers Inside)

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    Quote Originally Posted by CyYoung31 View Post
    lol ANH is not a well made movie. Gawd.
    It isn't. The writing is terrible, there are many many directorial/editing errors. It was the victim of it's budget for sure. It's a great film, but it's chock full of errors. Much more than Empire or Jedi. Compared to the OY, TFA has so few technical errora and the writing is so much better than ANH it's not funny.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sturg33 View Post
    much fewer plot holes.
    Ummmmmm wut?
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    Rogue One score is just as good if not better than TFA.

    After JW's amazing prequel work TFA was kind of a letdown. Glad MG did very well scoring R1.

    Forever Fredi


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    Quote Originally Posted by Forever Fredi View Post
    Rogue One score is just as good if not better than TFA.
    That's ****ing blasphemy
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    Ok now that I'm not travelling and have tired brain (it's a thing, look it up) I'll address a few people here.

    I'd really love to know what plot holes are in TFA sturg. Ignoring the fact that caring about plot holes in a space opera is kind of dumb. I'm curious about them. There are for sure a plethora of MacGuffins, but that's a classic Star Wars trope.

    Spoilers aplenty coming after this so don't read any further. I'm not spoiler wrapping as it's been out for a week, if you really cared you'd have gone and seen it by now, and the thread warns of spoilers.

    Let's discuss plotholes in Rogue One. For starters, why is Leia Princess of Alderaan and important Rebelion leader just chilling on Tantive IV which is chilling on a rebel attack ship? ANd then why does Vader even ask many of the questions he does at the beginning of a New Hope. For reminder,

    " Don't play games with me, Your Highness. You weren't on any mercy mission this time. You passed directly through a restricted system. Several transmissions were beamed to this ship by Rebel spies. I want to know what happened to the plans they sent you"

    Realize none of that happened, and Vader witnessed it all. R1 had the plans beamed to any of the ships so any of the rebel ships who escaped could have had it, Vader literally watched the Tantive IV take off and presumably followed it immediately. It wasn't passing through restrictive face, it fled from an attack on an imperial planet. He would have had no struggle arresting her for that. No "several transmissions" were sent. Just one.

    Or how about how Cassian leaves the shuttle as an imperial officer and none of the Storm troopers notice that the white clean shaven officer is now not either of those things.

    Or how Krennic says "find it" instead of "find her" he knew that Erso had a daughter. Why call her "it"

    I could continue, but it's a space opera, obsessing over minor details is moronic.

    It's not like wholesale changes like Leia knowing her mother and Padme dying at child birth. Or giving R2 rocket boosters in the prequels when many times they'd have been of use in the OT. How does Obi Wan go from looking like he did in ROTS to he did in ANH? Why make ANakin from Tatooine and Uncle Owen his step brother? How can a child of a slave build a complex protocol droid? How does Artoo not blow cover or mention anything to Luke? How did Obi Wan not recognize R2 or 3PO? Why would he say Anakin wanted Luke to have his lightsaber? Why did he say Yoda trained him? Why did he address Vader as "Darth" in their dual? Wouldn't he be inclined to call him by name? Why isn't there more there.

    Don't get me wrong, I understand the difficulties of the OT, but considering the line "YOU WERE MY BROTHER! I LOVED YOU" You'd think the final battle with Vader would have been a bit more emotionally charged rather than a geriatric chess match.

    Again, I don't really care about the plot holes in general, but complaining about them in TFA but not in other Star Wars movies is dumb.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CyYoung31 View Post
    I haven't seen Rogue One, but the characters in TFA, aside from Ren and Rey, were not interesting. At all.
    Which is comical.

    What characters did you love after ANH? Vader and Han. That's about it. Luke was a whiny baby. Leia was about as one dimensional of a Mary Sue as humanly possible.

    TFA introduces one of the best main protagonists in Rey. What everyone wishes Anakin in the prequels had been in Ren, a brand new to star wars trope of a defector brainwashed trooper, who just so happens to be fantastic, and a slightly different take on the cocky ace pilot. I said slightly mind you, I know Poe is still heavily drenched in Han Solo. But you care about all of these characters. When Ren nearly kills Finn, you deeply care. When you find out Poe isn't dead you care, and that's important.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jpx7 View Post
    Agreed. Conversely, I think we could have used a lot less creepy CGI Moff Tarkin screen-time.
    I agree. While ir looked good, it was off-putting. Not to mention the ramification of would Cushing want his likeness used in this way?
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    Quote Originally Posted by zitothebrave View Post
    Ok now that I'm not travelling and have tired brain (it's a thing, look it up) I'll address a few people here.

    I'd really love to know what plot holes are in TFA sturg. Ignoring the fact that caring about plot holes in a space opera is kind of dumb. I'm curious about them. There are for sure a plethora of MacGuffins, but that's a classic Star Wars trope.

    Spoilers aplenty coming after this so don't read any further. I'm not spoiler wrapping as it's been out for a week, if you really cared you'd have gone and seen it by now, and the thread warns of spoilers.

    Let's discuss plotholes in Rogue One. For starters, why is Leia Princess of Alderaan and important Rebelion leader just chilling on Tantive IV which is chilling on a rebel attack ship? ANd then why does Vader even ask many of the questions he does at the beginning of a New Hope. For reminder,

    " Don't play games with me, Your Highness. You weren't on any mercy mission this time. You passed directly through a restricted system. Several transmissions were beamed to this ship by Rebel spies. I want to know what happened to the plans they sent you"

    Realize none of that happened, and Vader witnessed it all. R1 had the plans beamed to any of the ships so any of the rebel ships who escaped could have had it, Vader literally watched the Tantive IV take off and presumably followed it immediately. It wasn't passing through restrictive face, it fled from an attack on an imperial planet. He would have had no struggle arresting her for that. No "several transmissions" were sent. Just one.

    Or how about how Cassian leaves the shuttle as an imperial officer and none of the Storm troopers notice that the white clean shaven officer is now not either of those things.

    Or how Krennic says "find it" instead of "find her" he knew that Erso had a daughter. Why call her "it"

    I could continue, but it's a space opera, obsessing over minor details is moronic.

    It's not like wholesale changes like Leia knowing her mother and Padme dying at child birth. Or giving R2 rocket boosters in the prequels when many times they'd have been of use in the OT. How does Obi Wan go from looking like he did in ROTS to he did in ANH? Why make ANakin from Tatooine and Uncle Owen his step brother? How can a child of a slave build a complex protocol droid? How does Artoo not blow cover or mention anything to Luke? How did Obi Wan not recognize R2 or 3PO? Why would he say Anakin wanted Luke to have his lightsaber? Why did he say Yoda trained him? Why did he address Vader as "Darth" in their dual? Wouldn't he be inclined to call him by name? Why isn't there more there.

    Don't get me wrong, I understand the difficulties of the OT, but considering the line "YOU WERE MY BROTHER! I LOVED YOU" You'd think the final battle with Vader would have been a bit more emotionally charged rather than a geriatric chess match.

    Again, I don't really care about the plot holes in general, but complaining about them in TFA but not in other Star Wars movies is dumb.
    Leia is not just a Princess she's a sitting Senator of Alderaan. You may have looked over that Tarkin reminded Krennic it was imperative to complete the Death Star soon because a debated had gone on in the Senate about the Death Star. He wanted to get it done quickly as he said not to make a manifesto but a statement. We don't discover the Senate was dissolved by the Emperor until ANH.

    It was easier for her to use the cover of being a Senator. She used her diplomatic mission to Alderaan as cover. She could have been headed to or headed back from the Senate debates.

    Several transmissions is what K2 in R1 refers to as "size of the data". There's a reason they beamed it directly to Admiral Raddus' ship. If they had openly broadcast the transmission, the Empire would have gotten it on their comms and known exactly what the weakness was and why the Rebels were looking for it. It's also why Tarkin decides just to play it safe to destroy Scariff. Vader has no idea how many Tantive IV ships there are. Remember he was trying to find the Rebel base and that ship could have had anyone in it.

    I think your complaint of Cassian is pretty absurd. I mean if you think about it K2 wasn't boarding with the inspection team. It's likely Cassian and K2 were already passengers on the cargo ship and were leaving while the captured inspection team were still inside inspecting. It really isn't not to long after that when the ambush begins and panic is all throughout the Scariff base.

    Krennic was referring to the daughter and the Kyber Crystal. That's what he's referring to when he says It. It also meant child and since the Deathtroopers have never seen the child it could have just been used that way.

    Obi-Wan was living on a planet with horrible conditions on Tattoine. Don't forget that Alec Guiness wasn't that old when he played Obi-Wan. Obi-Wan had the same hairstyle in ROTS as he did in ANH just slight balding and grey hair. It was what 18 years after the events of ROTS? I also think this is one of the more stupid things you could complain about. Considering these movies were made 30 years difference it's such a menial thing to complain about but I'm not surprised since it's coming from you.

    Child of a slave also was working in an parts backyard. And it's like Shmi finished C3PO when Anakin left so you can't rule out her helping him create C3. He was a miracle child with gifts beyond his years. Not so sure why that's hard to understand.

    He said Anakin would want Luke to get his lightsaber because in his view Anakin died where Vader was born. So it would be something a caring father would want for his child.

    Yoda trained many Jedi in the 800 years he was alive. Everyone was his padawan that includes Qui-Gon, Dooku, Anakin, etc. You are reading too much into what he said.

    Was the certain point of view thing completely lost on you? He said to Luke that Anakin Skywalker ceased to exist. He's not acknowledging the man in the suit as Anakin, he's acknowledging him as Darth Vader a Sith Lord.

    And the final part is something @thewupk and I have discussed. Technological effects back then were not what they are now obviously. To bitch about something like yet again just shows how much of a spoiled brat you are when it comes to this franchise.
    Forever Fredi


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    Quote Originally Posted by zitothebrave View Post
    I agree. While ir looked good, it was off-putting. Not to mention the ramification of would Cushing want his likeness used in this way?
    Cushing has no living descendants. His estate manager gave them the go ahead and I'm sure it wasn't for free.
    Forever Fredi


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    Quote Originally Posted by Forever Fredi View Post
    Cushing has no living descendants. His estate manager gave them the go ahead and I'm sure it wasn't for free.
    I know his estate OK'd it. But I'm talking about the man, not the estate. When he died in 1994 this wasn't even remotely a consideration. Similar with things like the Tupac hologram, do you think he'd want that? My money would be on hell no. Technology is advancing at a great rate but has gone a different direction that people thought 20 years ago.
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    Quote Originally Posted by zitothebrave View Post
    I know his estate OK'd it. But I'm talking about the man, not the estate. When he died in 1994 this wasn't even remotely a consideration. Similar with things like the Tupac hologram, do you think he'd want that? My money would be on hell no. Technology is advancing at a great rate but has gone a different direction that people thought 20 years ago.
    Who knows what he would have wanted. I'm sure if he were alive he would have taken the role himself.

    This technology is onyl going to continue happening. When Connery leave us we'll likely get a CGI'd cameo of his James Bond. The possibilities are endless.
    Forever Fredi


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    Quote Originally Posted by Forever Fredi View Post
    Leia is not just a Princess she's a sitting Senator of Alderaan. You may have looked over that Tarkin reminded Krennic it was imperative to complete the Death Star soon because a debated had gone on in the Senate about the Death Star. He wanted to get it done quickly as he said not to make a manifesto but a statement. We don't discover the Senate was dissolved by the Emperor until ANH.

    It was easier for her to use the cover of being a Senator. She used her diplomatic mission to Alderaan as cover. She could have been headed to or headed back from the Senate debates.

    Several transmissions is what K2 in R1 refers to as "size of the data". There's a reason they beamed it directly to Admiral Raddus' ship. If they had openly broadcast the transmission, the Empire would have gotten it on their comms and known exactly what the weakness was and why the Rebels were looking for it. It's also why Tarkin decides just to play it safe to destroy Scariff. Vader has no idea how many Tantive IV ships there are. Remember he was trying to find the Rebel base and that ship could have had anyone in it.

    I think your complaint of Cassian is pretty absurd. I mean if you think about it K2 wasn't boarding with the inspection team. It's likely Cassian and K2 were already passengers on the cargo ship and were leaving while the captured inspection team were still inside inspecting. It really isn't not to long after that when the ambush begins and panic is all throughout the Scariff base.

    Krennic was referring to the daughter and the Kyber Crystal. That's what he's referring to when he says It. It also meant child and since the Deathtroopers have never seen the child it could have just been used that way.

    Obi-Wan was living on a planet with horrible conditions on Tattoine. Don't forget that Alec Guiness wasn't that old when he played Obi-Wan. Obi-Wan had the same hairstyle in ROTS as he did in ANH just slight balding and grey hair. It was what 18 years after the events of ROTS? I also think this is one of the more stupid things you could complain about. Considering these movies were made 30 years difference it's such a menial thing to complain about but I'm not surprised since it's coming from you.

    Child of a slave also was working in an parts backyard. And it's like Shmi finished C3PO when Anakin left so you can't rule out her helping him create C3. He was a miracle child with gifts beyond his years. Not so sure why that's hard to understand.

    He said Anakin would want Luke to get his lightsaber because in his view Anakin died where Vader was born. So it would be something a caring father would want for his child.

    Yoda trained many Jedi in the 800 years he was alive. Everyone was his padawan that includes Qui-Gon, Dooku, Anakin, etc. You are reading too much into what he said.

    Was the certain point of view thing completely lost on you? He said to Luke that Anakin Skywalker ceased to exist. He's not acknowledging the man in the suit as Anakin, he's acknowledging him as Darth Vader a Sith Lord.

    And the final part is something @thewupk and I have discussed. Technological effects back then were not what they are now obviously. To bitch about something like yet again just shows how much of a spoiled brat you are when it comes to this franchise.
    Again, he literally saw the Tantive IV leave and followed it. THere's no regressive backtracking you can do. It was a throw away and the better way to have handled it was to have the attack ship beam it to the Tantive which happened to be passing through the system unrelated.

    I won't combat each point as I think you missed virtually all of mine. The last battle was less of a complaint about how it was fought, I don't care if it was missing acrobatics and whatnot, but the emotion, there was no emotion from either of them. It was a chessmatch. If they were really that close as the prequels made them to be, then you'd expect more emotion from Obi Wan or anger from Vader. Instead you just get some verbal sparring.

    "Everyone was his padawan" NOPE. Yoda trained younglings, but Obi Wan was Qui Gon's Padawan. Qui Gon was Dooku's padawan. Dooku was Yoda's padawan. THe padawan/mather relationship was set out as specific and it's a direct contradiction to what Obi Wan said, Yoda was the Jedi who trained him. Which thanks to the prequels we know that Qui Gon was the Jedi who trained him. Yoda was A jedi who trained Obi Wan, but that isn't close to what was implied by that line.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forever Fredi View Post
    Who knows what he would have wanted. I'm sure if he were alive he would have taken the role himself.

    This technology is onyl going to continue happening. When Connery leave us we'll likely get a CGI'd cameo of his James Bond. The possibilities are endless.
    But is that good? Imagine if you will, the no longer need for a Daniel Day Lewis, because someone can just wear a suit that shows his emotion and voice. The craft of acting will be gone. It's scary as someone who does perform that you'll not be needed because someone can just generate you.
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    Quote Originally Posted by zitothebrave View Post
    But is that good? Imagine if you will, the no longer need for a Daniel Day Lewis, because someone can just wear a suit that shows his emotion and voice. The craft of acting will be gone. It's scary as someone who does perform that you'll not be needed because someone can just generate you.
    Tarkin was in the movie for 4 minutes. Leia 10 seconds.

    Cgi isn't replacing major characters for some time. Too expensive.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forever Fredi View Post
    Tarkin was in the movie for 4 minutes. Leia 10 seconds.

    Cgi isn't replacing major characters for some time. Too expensive.
    And those roles could have gone to new actors. Heck they could have cast a new Leia and Tarkin for spinoffs.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forever Fredi View Post
    Who knows what he would have wanted. I'm sure if he were alive he would have taken the role himself.

    This technology is onyl going to continue happening. When Connery leave us we'll likely get a CGI'd cameo of his James Bond. The possibilities are endless.
    Not all that is possible is good.

    I'm with zito here regarding the ethical and metaphysical ramifications. I think it's worthwhile to ask if this computerized zombie performance is something Peter Cushing—or any actor—would really want; I likewise will not be surprised if actors start noting in their wills that their likenesses should not be used in this manner. Similarly, I think it's fair to simply question whether this represents good art, good aesthetic praxis, et cetera.

    And on an aesthetic level, I found it very uncanny-valley. It definitely took me out of the filmic experience, and—since I doubt Gareth Edwards was aiming for a Brechtian conceit—I chalk that rupture as a pretty big misstep within Rogue One.

    In terms of other complaints, I also felt like—if the goal was to truly make a different film, outside the core saga, as the authors of this film have stated—they should have spent a little more time plumbing the (very interesting, scantly covered) politics of the fledgling Rebellion, and less time "exploring" yet another conflicted paternal relationship—especially considering the film was obviously very concerned with interrogating the whole "good guys sometimes do bad" problem of righteous revolt. The Saw Gerrera–Jyn Erso scenes also felt really forced and ham-fisted to me—resulting from equal parts a surprisingly flat and bad performance by Forest Whitaker, and some pretty weak writing in the film's inelegant attempt to flesh-out their unexpected reunion without a lot of time/space in which to do it.

    I did, however, like the Zatoichi-style non-Jedi Force-user, and the whole mystical element they've been attempting to return to the Force generally—both in Rogue One and Force Awakens—after the midichlorian debacle of the prequels.
    Last edited by jpx7; 12-22-2016 at 01:49 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CyYoung31 View Post
    I haven't seen Rogue One, but the characters in TFA, aside from Ren and Rey, were not interesting. At all.
    Going to have to agree-to-disagree here, I suppose. I found Finn quite interesting, as far as characters in this sort of candy-bar film go. But as I alluded with the South Park reference, it's all about the nostalgia-bombs with these films; neither Force Awakens nor Rogue One are great films, especially if you evaluate them purely on their own merits. I just happened to prefer Force Awakens, between the two.

    ---

    Meanwhile, though it obviously has a lot of technical flaws, I actually think A New Hope is a great film: it's well-paced, it's exuberant, it feels very fresh and refreshingly seat-of-its-pants, and it gestures enticingly at the mysteries of its universe without getting too bogged down in trying to (over)articulate them. It also has just about the perfect amount of camp to counterbalance its melodrama—Hamill's just blurting out "I'm Luke Skywalker; I'm here to rescue you!" being a pretty great example of that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jpx7 View Post
    Not all that is possible is good.

    I'm with zito here regarding the ethical and metaphysical ramifications. I think it's worthwhile to ask if this computerized zombie performance is something Peter Cushing—or any actor—would really want; I likewise will not be surprised if actors start noting in their wills that their likenesses should not be used in this manner. Similarly, I think it's fair to simply question whether this represents good art, good aesthetic praxis, et cetera.

    And on an aesthetic level, I found it very uncanny-valley. It definitely took me out of the filmic experience, and—since I doubt Gareth Edwards was aiming for a Brechtian conceit—I chalk that rupture as a pretty big misstep within Rogue One.

    In terms of other complaints, I also felt like—if the goal was to truly make a different film, outside the core saga, as the authors of this film have stated—they should have spent a little more time plumbing the (very interesting, scantly covered) politics of the fledgling Rebellion, and less time "exploring" yet another conflicted paternal relationship—especially considering the film was obviously very concerned with interrogating the whole "good guys sometimes do bad" problem of righteous revolt. The Saw Gerrera–Jyn Erso scenes also felt really forced and ham-fisted to me—resulting from equal parts a surprisingly flat and bad performance by Forest Whitaker, and some pretty weak writing in the film's inelegant attempt to flesh-out their unexpected reunion without a lot of time/space in which to do it.

    I did, however, like the Zatoichi-style non-Jedi Force-user, and the whole mystical element they've been attempting to return to the Force generally—both in Rogue One and Force Awakens—after the midichlorian debacle of the prequel2
    2 things. Some already have. Robin Williams put a ban on usage of his image in any kind fo replication including digital, unused, etc. That's the new thing.

    Second I think my favorite force character in canon is Bendu in Rebels.
    AJ does all the other things just as well if not better than Mac - zbhargrove

    I don't think Nolan Ryan should be a poster child for mechanics - SAV

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    Shift Leader CyYoung31's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jpx7 View Post
    Going to have to agree-to-disagree here, I suppose. I found Finn quite interesting, as far as characters in this sort of candy-bar film go. But as I alluded with the South Park reference, it's all about the nostalgia-bombs with these films; neither Force Awakens nor Rogue One are great films, especially if you evaluate them purely on their own merits. I just happened to prefer Force Awakens, between the two.

    ---

    Meanwhile, though it obviously has a lot of technical flaws, I actually think A New Hope is a great film: it's well-paced, it's exuberant, it feels very fresh and refreshingly seat-of-its-pants, and it gestures enticingly at the mysteries of its universe without getting too bogged down in trying to (over)articulate them. It also has just about the perfect amount of camp to counterbalance its melodrama—Hamill's just blurting out "I'm Luke Skywalker; I'm here to rescue you!" being a pretty great example of that.
    Agree 100% with that last paragraph.

    As far as TFA, that was my biggest problem with it. It was just a fan-service film, which has been JJ Abrams' forte when relaunching film franchises (see: both Star Trek movies). It also suffered from the usual problems in Abrams' movies, like under developed plot and characters, and the story just taking a **** in the final act (usually thanks to a plot maguffin or deus ex machina).

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    Shift Leader CyYoung31's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zitothebrave View Post
    It isn't. The writing is terrible, there are many many directorial/editing errors. It was the victim of it's budget for sure. It's a great film, but it's chock full of errors. Much more than Empire or Jedi. Compared to the OY, TFA has so few technical errora and the writing is so much better than ANH it's not funny.
    Please, name the errors. And the writing is intentional, and has a unique charm to it. The dialogue in the other two films isn't much better. ANH is widely considered an excellent piece of filmmaking that ties many different classic genres into a cohesive, and entertaining whole. It's fantastic.

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